Reliable..... Not leaving me at the side of the road. Not needing a plethora of non maintenance items. Going more than a year without basic maintenance. I would MUCH rather replace coils every 50K-100K miles as opposed to a carb rebuild every 15K or so, a tune-up every 10K-12K (points, plugs, condenser, rotor and cap), wires and coil every 15K-20K, CONSTANTLY having to fine-tune the carburetor, making sure the oil level was right.... "little" things like that. I used to be under the hood taking care of something at least once a month. I pretty much raise the hood now when I'm bored and want to make sure the fluids are still full, change the oil, just give a general once over or do something like my engine cover mod.
Don't Shoot the Messenger
- Thread starter jerrym3
- Start date
Reliable..... Not leaving me at the side of the road. Not needing a plethora of non maintenance items. Going more than a year without basic maintenance. I would MUCH rather replace coils every 50K-100K miles as opposed to a carb rebuild every 15K or so, a tune-up every 10K-12K (points, plugs, condenser, rotor and cap), wires and coil every 15K-20K, CONSTANTLY having to fine-tune the carburetor, making sure the oil level was right.... "little" things like that. I used to be under the hood taking care of something at least once a month. I pretty much raise the hood now when I'm bored and want to make sure the fluids are still full, change the oil, just give a general once over or do something like my engine cover mod.
I must be an idiot then. The LAST thing I think of when buying a car is how much it may or may not be worth at some future date. As I would still be driving the 2000 had my daughter not needed a car (and it's still going strong at 180K+ miles) you can see I keep my cars until they die. There is also a bottom where they stop losing "value" I keep my car WELL past that point; especially when purchased new.
T-Money
Dedicated LVC Member
Agreed LS4me. If I'm spending money on a car it better damn well be something I plan to keep for a long time. Therefore I could care less what the resale value is. The only time I'd consider resale was if I was trading in every other year or something.
lincolnelite
Well-Known LVC Member
That's assuming you could keep the car until everything falls off the ground, what if you are involved in an accident and insurance totaled the car?
I saw this list too and I find it funny that the S-Type and the LS are on this list, but the Thunderbird isn't. They're identical except body design. Curious.
Having owned my LS over a year now, I think it's more reliable than what its given credit for. Case in point, my mom has owned two Expeditions, both with the 5.4 2V. The first one shot a plug out of the head and destroyed the coil. Luckily, if you take it to someone other than a dealer, they can do the Lock-Stich method of repair. If you take it to Ford, they say replace the head and/or engine. If you have the '05+ 3V 5.4, the plugs can break off into the head, requiring engine replacement. By far the 3.9 is more reliable than the 5.4. Yeah, parts are expensive because the vehicle was only made for 6 years. If you do regular maintenance and actually pay attention to what your car is doing, you can nip things in the bud and only have to pay when it's absolutely necessary.
Having owned my LS over a year now, I think it's more reliable than what its given credit for. Case in point, my mom has owned two Expeditions, both with the 5.4 2V. The first one shot a plug out of the head and destroyed the coil. Luckily, if you take it to someone other than a dealer, they can do the Lock-Stich method of repair. If you take it to Ford, they say replace the head and/or engine. If you have the '05+ 3V 5.4, the plugs can break off into the head, requiring engine replacement. By far the 3.9 is more reliable than the 5.4. Yeah, parts are expensive because the vehicle was only made for 6 years. If you do regular maintenance and actually pay attention to what your car is doing, you can nip things in the bud and only have to pay when it's absolutely necessary.
My LS does fine...................had one coil/plug issue and warranty replacement of the cat converters at 79,000.It has 107K now and leaks a little oil.I'm not complaining. My Grand Marquis was probably more dependable,but less exotic.It gets about 3 more mpg than my `95 Grand Marquis.
No cooling system troubles.Only steering inner tie rods and one outer....no biggie at 100K.I do my own work and I take care of a car so it will take care of me.Replaced tranny fluid once.I use only Pennzoil platinum full synthetic 5W-30 or Castrol Syntec full synthetic. Run the oil change 9-10K,replacing the filter at 5K and at oil change.don-ohio
^)
No cooling system troubles.Only steering inner tie rods and one outer....no biggie at 100K.I do my own work and I take care of a car so it will take care of me.Replaced tranny fluid once.I use only Pennzoil platinum full synthetic 5W-30 or Castrol Syntec full synthetic. Run the oil change 9-10K,replacing the filter at 5K and at oil change.don-ohio
^)
2002_lincolnLS
Custom User Title
I assume because they did the study on the 300,000 cars sold, there are even fewer yet of the tbird. I would think maybe none had even crossed the auction block that the pool of examples came from or so few that the ones that did come across where in low millage and good condition leading to lower repair records for the car.
The best way to do this would be to look at the repair records for say the top 100 sold and driven cars and only choose ones in certain millage ranges say look only at the ones in 80-100k range for comparing or something like that then see how many of each model have repeat offenses for repairs and general quantity of repairs.
There is no perfect way of doing the study, unless everyone in the world drove the car the same and did the same maintenance and had the same mechanic, however there are better and worse ways to do it.
But even with the study at hand, I would agree that LS's in GENERAL are not greatly reliable. I am sure there should be other cars lower than it, but they got info the way they could.
jerrym3
Well-Known LVC Member
My error for not being clear, and I'm not throwing any stones.......
You plan to do a lot of replacement work over the next two years.
At ages 23, 24, 25, unless you are planning to bring your car to the dealer with a list of parts to replace, you will most likely be doing the work yourself.
At age 70, 71, 72, doing self maintenance becomes harder.
So, no matter how much fun the car is to drive, in my situation, when the LS (and the TBird) become too much of a hassle to keep on the road, they both go.
True, this says nothing about the car's reliability. But, looking at my car's repair history (2004, 50K miles; 2003 TBird, 22K), there seem to be quite a few repairs.
Are there more, the same, or less repairs compared to other brands? I don't know. I have no way to perform a study.
But, if this study is accurate, I've got two cars that will require extra care as they age.
T-Money
Dedicated LVC Member
That's why you make sure you get a good deal when you buy it. I've had 2 totalled LS's both times insurance gave me thousands over what I paid for them.
That's a legitimate justification for never buying a new car. That's what gap insurance is for. Then again, getting in an accident and having the car totaled is as far from my mind as is what it may be worth at some future date. If I were to be worried about getting in an accident every time I drove somewhere I'd just quit driving.
As a kid I was forbade from saying two words in a row....... What if...... Great rule from my parents.
msgtusmc
Dedicated LVC Member
LS Reliabillity
The LS has to be taken into perspective by the used car buyers that dominate the current owners experiences. !st of all when new it sold for $28 - $40k as a so called luxury model sporty type vehicle by Lincoln based on the Jag chassis. The new T-bird used the same chassis, shortened 7 inches. The mechanics are a cost compromise across all models. Up until the mid-eighties most cars required a valve job around 60k miles, most vehicles never saw 100k miles by an owner for the most part unless extensive engine/tranny rebuild was entailed. Now with the hardening of the valves and seals we don't see this anymore, but other parts are failing somewhere around 100k miles. Most are soft metal, cheap cast metal or plastic that fail around the 100k mark. This is to be expected from 80-90s engineering/bean counter mind set. The almighty share holders rule!
Engineering caused the ill fated fan cooling system component selection and system design. Obvious disaster around 80-100k mile mark, life cycle. Remember most components on an automobile have a planned be on the low end life cycle life, based on component cost. 2nd or 3rd owners buying any vehicle should research where the perspective vehicle falls in this life cycle component failure scale. The LS might fall on the low end of the life cycle scale based on a particular system or systems parts weaknesses. Conclusion: Buyer be ware! Buyer be informed! Buyer decide how repairs are going to be performed! Limited run means parts shortages! So most didn't pay $40k for there LS but may pay $3k to keep it running past the 80-100k mark. We all have to decide if this is acceptable, even if we don't experience all the repairs. You can praise the LS if you purchased it at a good price and haven't spent funds to fix all the system or systems failure parts. If you paid a fair price, on a tight budget and experienced this failures you might not be so happy. If you over paid or bought it over the 100k mark, the repair costs hurt more. Those that purchased real cheap, over 100k and complain about the repair costs were not informed and may be on to tight a budget for his vehicle. JMHO
The LS has to be taken into perspective by the used car buyers that dominate the current owners experiences. !st of all when new it sold for $28 - $40k as a so called luxury model sporty type vehicle by Lincoln based on the Jag chassis. The new T-bird used the same chassis, shortened 7 inches. The mechanics are a cost compromise across all models. Up until the mid-eighties most cars required a valve job around 60k miles, most vehicles never saw 100k miles by an owner for the most part unless extensive engine/tranny rebuild was entailed. Now with the hardening of the valves and seals we don't see this anymore, but other parts are failing somewhere around 100k miles. Most are soft metal, cheap cast metal or plastic that fail around the 100k mark. This is to be expected from 80-90s engineering/bean counter mind set. The almighty share holders rule!
Engineering caused the ill fated fan cooling system component selection and system design. Obvious disaster around 80-100k mile mark, life cycle. Remember most components on an automobile have a planned be on the low end life cycle life, based on component cost. 2nd or 3rd owners buying any vehicle should research where the perspective vehicle falls in this life cycle component failure scale. The LS might fall on the low end of the life cycle scale based on a particular system or systems parts weaknesses. Conclusion: Buyer be ware! Buyer be informed! Buyer decide how repairs are going to be performed! Limited run means parts shortages! So most didn't pay $40k for there LS but may pay $3k to keep it running past the 80-100k mark. We all have to decide if this is acceptable, even if we don't experience all the repairs. You can praise the LS if you purchased it at a good price and haven't spent funds to fix all the system or systems failure parts. If you paid a fair price, on a tight budget and experienced this failures you might not be so happy. If you over paid or bought it over the 100k mark, the repair costs hurt more. Those that purchased real cheap, over 100k and complain about the repair costs were not informed and may be on to tight a budget for his vehicle. JMHO
jerrym3
Well-Known LVC Member
Granted, it's a "one car" history, but here's a list of my 2004 LS repairs/mileage.
This car is not driven hard. Rarely sees full throttle. When I drive it, I use the SST function sometimes. My wife never uses it. Car gets PM as per the owner's manual.
3,760/ash tray fell apart (no biggie)
16,575/steering squeak/roof leak
17,575/replace steering rack
20,351/trans solenoid repair
22,691/oxygen sensors
28,720/belt and sensor
33,705/heater control valve
35,550/window regulator
36,500/suspension bushings, fr/rear
36,700/2 COPS
39,910/mass airflow sensor
43,166/1 COP
46,787/1 COP
46,924/throttle body
50,000 serpentine belt/oil pan gasket
Again, don't shoot the messenger.
This car is not driven hard. Rarely sees full throttle. When I drive it, I use the SST function sometimes. My wife never uses it. Car gets PM as per the owner's manual.
3,760/ash tray fell apart (no biggie)
16,575/steering squeak/roof leak
17,575/replace steering rack
20,351/trans solenoid repair
22,691/oxygen sensors
28,720/belt and sensor
33,705/heater control valve
35,550/window regulator
36,500/suspension bushings, fr/rear
36,700/2 COPS
39,910/mass airflow sensor
43,166/1 COP
46,787/1 COP
46,924/throttle body
50,000 serpentine belt/oil pan gasket
Again, don't shoot the messenger.
lincolnelite
Well-Known LVC Member
So what if I don't have a good deal and my parents didn't forbade me from saying those two words? The list is a statistical result, it doesn't apply to 1 owner/vehicle but tells the PROBABILITY of getting those issues based on the reported issue among others. If you happen to have no issues with the LS then you are the lucky one but can't say it's reliable in general. It's reliable to you but not to somebody else. I'm a member of ford explorer forum and most of us have the same exact issues, I saw some of the failures (on the sticky) there that didn't happen to me a long time ago but eventually it did happen. It will happen either sooner or later but the defect is there.
Actually, it was ~$34K to ~$44K; MSRP.
I have a 2006 with just over 62000 miles. I've had to have an alternator rebuilt, a serpentine belt, and a dccv replacement. I still have the original headlight bulbs. Almost forgot, right direction indicator bulb in the rear and just recently the message center buttons broke loose.
That last one was a real bummer trying to find the part at a salvage yard that wanted $100 for the center panel without the slot for the 4 buttons. I found a great solution for less than $5. I will start a thread about that solution shortly.
jerrym3
Well-Known LVC Member
New one to the list:
Radio goes back and forth from AM to FM by itself.
Anyone else experience this problem?
Radio goes back and forth from AM to FM by itself.
Anyone else experience this problem?
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
Not I, but it might be the beginnings of a failing clockspring.
me and every other person on earth who has ever owned a 1992-1999 BMW 3 series for any length of time.
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
Sorry, I can promise that this applies to the E46 (1999 to 2006 3 series) too. At least with the LS, waiting till the system fails does not usually risk the need to replace the engine (no failsafe cooling on the BMWs).
jerrym3
Well-Known LVC Member
Forgive my stupidity, but what and where is the clockspring? What else does it control/affect?
Thanks
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
It's behind the steering wheel. It passes the signals for the radio buttons on the steering wheel, the cruise control buttons on the steering wheel, the horn button, and the airbag in the steering wheel.
If I weren't a DIY kinda guy, I guess I may be a bit frustrated like some others. I bought my 2002 LSE 12/2002 brand spanking new, still have her with 166k on the clock. Just did the rear toe links earlier today. THings I've learned: I keep 3-4 spare COP's in my garage at all times. First time one went bad, I replaced all 8, then I quickly learned that it's much cheaper to just replace the one that's bad. I also learned that Advance/Auto Zones rebuilt alternators may last a long time, or may last just long enough for their warranty to expire. Motorcraft alternator only for me. What else? I had my transmission fluid flushed at 75k and again at 150k. It's not the most responsive transmission but seems to be rather sturdy. Valve Cover gasket started leaking at 80k or so. Had the dealer do that job then, so far, no leaks. Two degas bottles (seems like 75-80k is about the time for those internal stress cracks to start) cooling tower, DCCV valve. I think that covers the cooling system. Still on original radiator and fan. Im still running original oxygen sensors so maybe I'll replace those soon. I replaced the spark plugs at about 75k with bosch platinums and again at around 150k with Bosch Platinums again. I fixed my drivers side heated seat twice (my fault..those large rivets in the back of True REligion brand jeans dig into the heating elements) and replaced the clockspring around 80k and again around 140 or so. HAd a window regulator go bad once. Other than regular oil changes, filter changes, brake maintenance...she's been fine. Still handles amazingly tight. I've had zero steering issues or anything replaced. Oh yeah, those front swaybar bushings. I've replaced them twice with poly replacements. All of that would have really added up at the dealer, but the car is pretty easy to work on (except that drivers side rear valve cover gasket bolts...ugh) and has never left me stranded. If you have a keen ear, she always gives you a warning (high fan noise) if she's about to overheat due to cooling system issue. Putting the heat on max/high has always gotten me home in time to park her and get her ready for repair! That said, I thought I was going to sell her a year ago but the darn thing still pulls so strongly, handles great, is still remarkably quiet and other than my heated seat (went out AGAIN..guessing my solder of the broken element didn't hold so well) not working, everything else works perfectly fine. Been a great experience for me.
jerrym3
Well-Known LVC Member
Replacement estimate cost? (Dealer service.)
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
The part is $140, but the dealer will charge $200 for it. It should be about an hour of labor, so maybe somewhere around $300.
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
I, too, bought my '02 LS new. Now has 150K+ on it. I have all original cooling system including degas bottle. I've replaced the alternator several times. The only one I could get the first time was from Autozone. Luckily it has a 'forever' replacement warrantee because the first ones died at 2-3 month intervals. However, the last one has now gone better than five years. I've replaced the COPs once---and put in Accel Mustang units. I broke, and replaced, a driver's door inside latch handle. I had to reglue the one end of the button assembly for the diagnostics panel on the center tower of the dash. That's it.
I have a small leak at the steering rack that needs topping off at 2-3 month intervals. When it starts to make a little noise I pour in a half-cupful. I need to replace the clockspring. It's been so evil outside that I haven't checked the battery. It may need replacing. Ive gone through several sets of Michelin Pilot Sports PS-2s. And somewhat over a year ago I cracked a front brake rotor and did a complete replacement of rotors and pads.
I've owned a bunch of cars in my life. My first car was a '34 Five-Window Coupe. My first new car was a '64 Ford Custom with a 427-T engine.
The '02 LS is the most trouble-free car I've ever owned. It hasn't been to the dealer since I ran out of free oil-changes at 40K miles.
KS
I have a small leak at the steering rack that needs topping off at 2-3 month intervals. When it starts to make a little noise I pour in a half-cupful. I need to replace the clockspring. It's been so evil outside that I haven't checked the battery. It may need replacing. Ive gone through several sets of Michelin Pilot Sports PS-2s. And somewhat over a year ago I cracked a front brake rotor and did a complete replacement of rotors and pads.
I've owned a bunch of cars in my life. My first car was a '34 Five-Window Coupe. My first new car was a '64 Ford Custom with a 427-T engine.
The '02 LS is the most trouble-free car I've ever owned. It hasn't been to the dealer since I ran out of free oil-changes at 40K miles.
KS