Drooool

[Mechanicboy]

so when you say "tuning is a MUST" and "there is a lot to be had from headers"... where are these statements coming from?

What is a lot in your mind?

I said:

Headers are best with a new tune for them. IMO a tune is a MUST have with headers.

IMO.

there's a lot to be had from tuning with the headers.

Let's qualify "a lot" as say you get 8hp from just headers not tuned for headers then you'd get somewhere around 8 more with a proper dyno tune for a 16ish HP gain. That would be an example.

evidence = proof

Evidence is not equal to proof, it is merely a partial attempt at proving something. Evidence often leads to false conclusions. That's why I keep saying that this is all specific to each vehicle and the mods to them. No two are identical.

lets give it a more fair fight..... put my tune or 02lse...........'s tune from ills against a custom tune on our cars. The unseen half of the ILLS tunes is how they are somewhat tailored to the cars. I do custom tuning (on gm's not fords) and I would be hard pressed to get the tranny tune as good as ILLS's and his AFR's on my car are table flat. Yes there is a lot to be said for custom tuning, but with canned tunes as rock solid as his, the need for them on these cars with next to no aftermarket is just not there. Guys like Quik with custom work have a need for it. But for 50 bucks vs 450 first hour plus how ever much each additional hour, ILLS's tune cant be beat.

Right, a dyno tune wouldn't help with the automatic transmission, but my LS is not a automatic. Plus we are talking about tuning for applications with headers, which ILLS may not have ever tuned for so wouldn't have the specific experience. I'm not saying ILLS tunes are bad, don't make that mistake. I haven't talked to ILLS(seems hard to get a hold of) but I have talked to torrie and he wanted $150, minimum. $450 is the most I've heard of for starting a dyno tune, but there's several in my area so competition must be driving prices down.

A member on a ford fusion site had a Steeda intake and a Steeda 91 tune. He had his car dyno tuned and picked up another 17HP. Steeda is a very reputable company with Ford products.

 

[PetesSweets86]

no two are identical but you can't argue a point without showing data of change. If anything the header might feel like a performance gain even when it's not and maybe you're getting a bigger sound due to the more open headers. But if anything it COULD BE a placebo affect to which the mind feels like there's a gain but lets face it. I've had times when I didn't drive my car for a week and when I got it back and drove it....it felt hella fast and powerful. You have to realize our bodies are used to muscle memory and that driving at the same pace/speed is what we are accustom to. To which a simple change in anything might make us feel either "powerful" or "deminished". For instance I felt like my intake tube gave my engine a lot more power but in actuality it's just the fact it's a more open sound giving the effect of it being more powerful

 

[Alax7]

Thats sounds like an interested waiger.Is ILLS even doing tunes still? I thought he was to busy right now.

 

[Missing Linc']

I beg to differ. TYPICALLY id agree, but I'll put my ILLS tune against your tune any day!

Factory tune home boy and Im gonna go 13's with it.










hopefully

 

[Mechanicboy]

no two are identical but you can't argue a point without showing data of change. If anything the header might feel like a performance gain even when it's not and maybe you're getting a bigger sound due to the more open headers. But if anything it COULD BE a placebo affect to which the mind feels like there's a gain but lets face it. I've had times when I didn't drive my car for a week and when I got it back and drove it....it felt hella fast and powerful. You have to realize our bodies are used to muscle memory and that driving at the same pace/speed is what we are accustom to. To which a simple change in anything might make us feel either "powerful" or "deminished". For instance I felt like my intake tube gave my engine a lot more power but in actuality it's just the fact it's a more open sound giving the effect of it being more powerful

You are absolutely right. That's why the butt dyno is a bad one. People get tricked who have throttle-by-wire setups because tuners often use a snap-spring affect that makes people think it has more power when it doesn't. Same goes for intake and exhaust, people mistake the loudness for speed.

Thats sounds like an interested waiger.Is ILLS even doing tunes still? I thought he was to busy right now.

That's why I said he's hard to get a hold of and that torrie wants $150. I don't want to spend that much if I'm just going to get a dyno tune later. If he would do one tune for $50 then I'd give it a try.

 

[Quik LS]

ILet's qualify "a lot" as say you get 8hp from just headers not tuned for headers then you'd get somewhere around 8 more with a proper dyno tune for a 16ish HP gain. That would be an example.

You adding up the changes....

a standard stock LS gains about 14 - 19 rwhp with a tune.

as I stated above,

The mustang crowd is getting dynoed, then tuned, then dynoed, then add headers, then dynoed, then tuned, then dynoed....

they are only seeing 5-8hp with shorties ans 8-13hp with longs

they saw only minimal improvements (similar to cat-back or air filter) with the addition of headers.

Are you recommending that people also get re-tuned for a cat-back or air filter?

 

[Mechanicboy]

You adding up the changes....

a standard stock LS gains about 14 - 19 rwhp with a tune.

as I stated above,

The mustang crowd is getting dynoed, then tuned, then dynoed, then add headers, then dynoed, then tuned, then dynoed....

they are only seeing 5-8hp with shorties ans 8-13hp with longs

You never answered if they were dyno tunes. Who gives a sh1t if they dyno all day long, that don't mean anything. We are talking about dyno tuning.

I'm not adding up the changes, you are. Let's make this easier to understand.

Let's say an LS pulled 230 RWHP with a tune only.
With headers and that same tune lets say it made 238 RWHP.
Then tune specfically for the headers "a lot" IMO would add somewhere like 8 more HP making the final RWHP at 246 RWHP. Does this example of hypothetical numbers make more sense?

they saw only minimal improvements (similar to cat-back or air filter) with the addition of headers.

Are you recommending that people also get re-tuned for a cat-back or air filter?

If one were to get a dyno tune(or box tune for that matter) then yes, I'd suggest that one would wait until their other mods as such be completed before hand to get the best tune.

Like I've also keep saying that different cars and headers behave differently. If a tune on a mustang only gets 8 RWHP that doesn't mean that's all you get out of an LS

Are you suggesting that people with power adders don't get tuned? After all, it's just adding more air(and fuel with WET NOS) and the computer should be able to adjust for that.

 

[Quik LS]

dude - the point being...

- you have no experience with tuning on these cars. You car is not tuned.
- you have no experience with headers on these cars, nor actual experience with headers on modern EFI cars
- you state things like MUST and ALOT, .. but these are only opinions from the bench.

right?

 

[Mechanicboy]

Do you have experience with headers on these cars? If not, then it would appear that you are also only using opinions from the bench.

Right?

Also, you never answered the question about if the mustangs were tuned for headers or not.

 

[Quik LS]

Do you have experience with headers on these cars? If not, then it would appear that you are also only using opinions from the bench.

Right?

Also, you never answered the question about if the mustangs were tuned for headers or not.

I know you are fairly new to the board - I do not mean to ride your sack - I just wanted to you to clarify your strongly worded position.

I in fact have worked on headers for the LS. We spent a week building three different versions of shorties - at the end of it -not enough gains to actually be worth $1000. That combined with the pain to get to them....

not sure what you can't read here

The mustang crowd is getting dynoed, then tuned, then dynoed, then add headers, then dynoed, then tuned, then dynoed....

The headers are run $800+
Re-work the exhuast $300+ to fit them
Replace the stock cats with ones that will fit $500 (or go cat delete?)
Tuning (your recommendation) $150 (if you have a SCT already)

on the conservitive side - this will run $1800+

so when you say "there is a lot to be had from headers" how much is a lot for your $1800+?

 

[PetesSweets86]

+1

 

[HRLNKN]

See..there's this thread. A long thread; no...a sticky,really, where this sort of thing and a few others is discussed at length. Check it out here. (WARNING: this is 33 pages long. A lot of good info, though.)

 

[HRLNKN]

Almost forgot, check out the hi-po section too.

 

[SPSully]

so when you say "there is a lot to be had from headers" how much is a lot for your $1800+?

keep in mind my ills tune got me 24whp, for 50

Oh and my 200 shot of nitrous with added bells and whistles is only around the $700 mark

I just found my twin turbos (sure they are used but still jsut what I need) for $300



and ILLS is on deployment, but I recently bought one of his LS tunes for a friend (just before he left)


Quik would know better but 1800 would probably get you most of the way to his sc kit.

 

[Mechanicboy]

I know you are fairly new to the board - I do not mean to ride your sack - I just wanted to you to clarify your strongly worded position.

I in fact have worked on headers for the LS. We spent a week building three different versions of shorties - at the end of it -not enough gains to actually be worth $1000. That combined with the pain to get to them....

not sure what you can't read here


The headers are run $800+
Re-work the exhuast $300+ to fit them
Replace the stock cats with ones that will fit $500 (or go cat delete?)
Tuning (your recommendation) $150 (if you have a SCT already)

on the conservitive side - this will run $1800+

so when you say "there is a lot to be had from headers" how much is a lot for your $1800+?

Sorry for the late reply, I've been fighting bronchitis, just moved(have my garage now ), had to clear the garage and finally have the car up and the transmission out, but anyway...

Yea, I had read your posts, but in one thread you said you visited shops, they said it wasn't worth it. Then another thread, you worked trying out headers for a weekend, now it's a week. If you built headers for the LS then why didn't you use them, even if they didn't provide much of a gain? That's really a mute point because I've been talking about DYNO TUNING for headers anyway. Not talking a cost, or other more cost effective was to make power. Good job answering your own questions though.

and ILLS is on deployment, but I recently bought one of his LS tunes for a friend (just before he left)

Quik would know better but 1800 would probably get you most of the way to his sc kit.

If ILLS tunes are only $50 then that would be worth a try. $50 is much easier to swallow then $150 as I just can't see spending $150 for tunes when I'm going to get a dyno tune someday anyway. And yes, I already had an Xcal2 from another Ford I own and tune. So I'll be pleased to try out one of ILLS tunes if someone would let me know when he get's back.

With the SC kit, $1800 won't quite get you half way. It's $4k, but it's missing quite a few things that you'd need to buy extra and/or source yourself.

 

[HRLNKN]

Just thought I'd add this for anyone who might be interested. Enjoy.

 

[djknowledge]

how much are those bad boys?

 

[pektel]

somewhere between 800-1200 IIRC.

 

[Alax7]

Are they yours or you came across them?

So how are they improved over stock, bigger pipess, smoother design for air flow? The shop I did my exhaust at was doing some for a customer while I was there. Might go ask how much they do them for.

 

[pektel]

BTW, I am pretty sure those are not LS headers.

 

[HRLNKN]

That's the pic they put up @ Stainless Works for 02-05 Thunderbird. I don't have them, but I might get them some day from here. Better prices.

 

[Missing Linc']

That's the pic they put up @ Stainless Works for 02-05 Thunderbird. I don't have them, but I might get them some day from here. Better prices.

Panthro?

Good job on the link to Byunspeed, I kept thinking it was Brenspeed for some reason.

 

[HRLNKN]

I try, I try.

 

[Missing Linc']

Some day Ill get them..

 

[NYC LS8]

Im getting them.. I dont care what any of you have to say, Im gettting them, they are my next mod..

:shifty: