Economic recovery package before Congress"would provide massive fiscal stimulus."

Mick Jagger

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Economic recovery package before Congress"would provide massive fiscal stimulus."​

ABC's Gibson stated that "a lot of people" say spending in recovery bill isn't "stimulus" -- but CBO director says "most economists" disagree

Summary: Interviewing President Obama, ABC's Charles Gibson repeated assertions that "not enough" of the economic recovery package before Congress "is really stimulative," that the bill "really doesn't stimulate," and that "it's a spending bill and not a stimulus." But according to the director of the Congressional Budget Office, "most economists" believe "all of the increase in government spending" included in the bill "provides some stimulative effect." The CBO director has further stated that the bill "would provide massive fiscal stimulus."

http://mediamatters.org/items/200902030016?f=h_top
 
Am I to take Obama's word on this one?
The myth that taking money from one person and paying another to dig holes and fill them back up all day DOES NOT WORK. Government spending is not an efficient way to grow the economy. It has never worked, yet the same fools who think communism will work if we just give it one more try, embrace this.

We have multiple threads on this topic on this big spending bill, this socialist trojan horse.

But here are just 50 of the "stimulus" expenses inside the bill as isolated by the National Review:
$50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts
$380 million in the Senate bill for the Women, Infants and Children program
$300 million for grants to combat violence against women
$2 billion for federal child-care block grants
$6 billion for university building projects
$15 billion for boosting Pell Grant college scholarships
$4 billion for job-training programs, including $1.2 billion for “youths” up to the age of 24
$1 billion for community-development block grants
$4.2 billion for “neighborhood stabilization activities”
$650 million for digital-TV coupons; $90 million to educate “vulnerable populations”
$15 billion for business-loss carry-backs
$145 billion for “Making Work Pay” tax credits
$83 billion for the earned income credit
$150 million for the Smithsonian
$34 million to renovate the Department of Commerce headquarters
$500 million for improvement projects for National Institutes of Health facilities
$44 million for repairs to Department of Agriculture headquarters
$350 million for Agriculture Department computers
$88 million to help move the Public Health Service into a new building
$448 million for constructing a new Homeland Security Department headquarters
$600 million to convert the federal auto fleet to hybrids
$450 million for NASA (carve-out for “climate-research missions”)
$600 million for NOAA (carve-out for “climate modeling”)
$1 billion for the Census Bureau
$89 billion for Medicaid
$30 billion for COBRA insurance extension
$36 billion for expanded unemployment benefits
$20 billion for food stamps
$4.5 billion for U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
$850 million for Amtrak
$87 million for a polar icebreaking ship
$1.7 billion for the National Park System
$55 million for Historic Preservation Fund
$7.6 billion for “rural community advancement programs”
$150 million for agricultural-commodity purchases
$150 million for “producers of livestock, honeybees, and farm-raised fish”
$2 billion for renewable-energy research ($400 million for global-warming research)
$2 billion for a “clean coal” power plant in Illinois
$6.2 billion for the Weatherization Assistance Program
$3.5 billion for energy-efficiency and conservation block grants
$3.4 billion for the State Energy Program
$200 million for state and local electric-transport projects
$300 million for energy-efficient-appliance rebate programs
$400 million for hybrid cars for state and local governments
$1 billion for the manufacturing of advanced batteries
$1.5 billion for green-technology loan guarantees
$8 billion for innovative-technology loan-guarantee program
$2.4 billion for carbon-capture demonstration projects
$4.5 billion for electricity grid
$79 billion for State Fiscal Stabilization Fund
 
Ultimate Collapse

I'd strongly suggest that you Liberal/Secular-Progressive types keep very quiet regarding this one. To do otherwise is to be in a position to have your figurative heads handed to you when the whole thing crashes. Massive government spending doesn't repair a damaged economy. It only pushes ultimate collapse further away. The Depression was ultimately repaired by the activities attached to WW2. The CCC didn't do it!
KS
 
Responding to the Jagger-bot only perpetuates the lie that the Jagger-bot is capable of honest debate.
 
Responding to the Jagger-bot only perpetuates the lie that the Jagger-bot is capable of honest debate.

Honest debate sticks to the facts without labeling and insulting, and while Mick has probably violated that sentiment, I have not seen it, but I have indeed seen both Shag and Cal do so repeatedly.
 
Honest debate sticks to the facts without labeling and insulting, and while Mick has probably violated that sentiment, I have not seen it, but I have indeed seen both Shag and Cal do so repeatedly.

Before you give your insight, you should get to know the players first..
Or- why don't you engage the Jagger-bot in a challenging conversation and tell us what you think? Are you supporting the trillion dollar pork stimulus? If not, take Jagger-bot to task on it.
 
Before you give your insight, you should get to know the players first..

I've been reading a lot longer than I've been posting.

Or- why don't you engage the Jagger-bot in a challenging conversation and tell us what you think?

As per above, I have seen that Jagger won't engage a detailed challenge. But there is a difference between avoiding one's opponent and taking cheap shots at one's opponents. You & shag don't need to go around insulting him and telling the rest of us how bad he is - we can see that for ourselves.

I'm just saying we can do without the insults, labeling, and name calling. Jagger-bot has not done any of that. Others have.

Are you supporting the trillion dollar pork stimulus?

My opinion of the bill would probably surprise you. But, I enjoy remaining an objective third party and will continue to do so by not advertising which side I'm on.
 
I don't even know how somebody can call this pork project a stimulus with a straight face.
 
As per above, I have seen that Jagger won't engage a detailed challenge. But there is a difference between avoiding one's opponent and taking cheap shots at one's opponents. You & shag don't need to go around insulting him and telling the rest of us how bad he is - we can see that for ourselves.

I'm just saying we can do without the insults, labeling, and name calling. Jagger-bot has not done any of that. Others have.



My opinion of the bill would probably surprise you. But, I enjoy remaining an objective third party and will continue to do so by not advertising which side I'm on.
Again, you are too new to this forum to know what's gone on with "Jagger," aka FreddieFriday, aka FredFlash, aka Frederick T. Slicer. Rather than act like a knowitall, do a little research.

By the way, your last sentence makes you a self-professed troll.

You are not the arbiter for this forum.
 
As per above, I have seen that Jagger won't engage a detailed challenge. But there is a difference between avoiding one's opponent and taking cheap shots at one's opponents. You & shag don't need to go around insulting him and telling the rest of us how bad he is - we can see that for ourselves.
So you do recognize that he posts contentious things and refuses to participate in a two way discussion after. That's good.

I guess we can't introduce any levity in here. Can't make a joke for entertainment sake for fear you won't get it?

Are you seriously taking issue with us calling him a Jagger-bot?
It was based upon his tendency to come into the forum and cut and paste non-topical arguments around the internet, usually about guns. And then, he did this:
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=47930&
hence- the jagger-bot. The artificial internet intelligence that has programmed responses, just not intelligent ones.


I'm just saying we can do without the insults, labeling, and name calling. Jagger-bot has not done any of that. Others have.
Yes, he has. Everyone has... even foxpaws has her own special style of digging it in and twisting. That's the nature of a forum like this. But to imply that either Shag or I don't engage in honest debate is absurd. We both, often needlessly, even honestly respond to the most absurd arguments from the most hostile trolls.

And based on your perception, you haven't been lurking around here very long. Maybe a couple weeks, but not very long at all.

My opinion of the bill would probably surprise you. But, I enjoy remaining an objective third party and will continue to do so by not advertising which side I'm on.
Well, then engage the jagger-bot in a devil's advocate argument.. Just give the program a test run.
 
taking money from one person and paying another to dig holes and fill them back up all day DOES NOT WORK.
I agree with you. That's why I am glad that the Bill doesn't do that.

Here's a good explanation of how the Bill will create jobs. I trust it will correct some your misunderstanding of the matter.

How the Recovery Package Creates Jobs

Effective economic stimulus and recovery measures work by increasing the demand for goods and services at a time when there is insufficient existing demand to keep businesses operating at full capacity and to generate full employment. Measures that increase demand stop the destruction of jobs and begin to put people back to work during times when business and consumer confidence is low and economic activity is spiraling downward. They continue to do so in the early stages of a recovery from a long and deep recession. Many criticisms of the Congressional package reflect a poor understanding of this process.

Some critics, for example, argue that spending on safety net programs like food stamps and unemployment insurance may be justified on humanitarian grounds but does not provide stimulus or create jobs in the way that reductions in, say, taxes for businesses would. In fact, this argument is completely backward in a recession. When the problem is that businesses have excess productive capacity and can’t sell everything they can make, the way to reduce pressure on them to lay off workers and to give them a greater incentive to expand is to give their customers more money to spend. When you increase benefits for unemployed workers or food stamp recipients, they spend the money quickly and the benefits spread through the economy. That’s what creates incentives for businesses to preserve and create jobs in a recession. Whatever the merits of business tax cuts as a long-term strategy to promote economic growth, they are an ineffective policy when what is needed is to put more customers in the stores.

Some critics also argue that providing additional resources in areas such as child care, Pell Grants, or health services may be good long-run policy but will not help generate jobs. This, too, is mistaken. Programs that serve useful purposes and can spend additional resources relatively quickly boost demand and save or create jobs. Take child care, for example. If states can enroll more children who need child care while their parents are working, looking for work, or in school upgrading their skills, that will expand the number of teachers, aides, food service workers, and custodial staff employed in child care facilities around the country (many of which are small businesses that are so often talked about in the stimulus debate). More children in child care also translates into higher demand for classroom materials and transportation services. The teachers and others who have jobs as a result of the expansion in the child care program will have steady paychecks and be able to purchase more goods and services for their families.

Critics are similarly confused about fiscal relief measures for cash-strapped states. Here, too, some critics have mistakenly charged that such measures are not stimulus and do not create jobs.Brooks, for example, seems to think that such measures provide a boost to existing state budgets that exceeds what governors can absorb. The truth is quite different. In an economic downturn, states see their revenues fall off and their caseloads for social safety net programs like Medicaid increase. Unlike the federal government, states have balanced budget requirements for their operating budgets. As budget deficits begin to emerge, states must take actions to cut existing programs or raise new revenues.

Those actions translate into layoffs of state workers, cancellation of contracts with vendors, and a diminished response to the hardship that beneficiaries of safety net programs experience. Without help from the federal government, those state actions will reverberate through the economy, adding to the job losses and further weakening economic activity. States currently face budget shortfalls projected at more than $350 billion over the next 2½ years, a stunning amount that, in the absence of federal relief, would translate into budget cuts and tax increases that would make the recession longer and deeper. Far from exceeding what states can handle, the state fiscal relief provisions of the recovery package make up only a part (about half) of this gap.[5] State fiscal relief thus will reduce the job losses and reduction in economic activity that otherwise would take place, but will not prevent states from having to make tough budget choices to address the substantial budget gaps that remain.

One of the main provisions for providing fiscal relief to states is a temporary increase in the Federal Medical Assistance Percentage (FMAP), which increases the share of state Medicaid expenses that the federal government pays. Some critics may have this in mind when they criticize the package for increasing entitlement spending rather than providing “real” stimulus. But that criticism is misplaced and reflects a misunderstanding of how the provision would work. By temporarily assuming some of the cost of Medicaid, the federal government allows states to continue to meet their Medicaid obligations without cutting other programs more deeply, avoiding the job losses and other adverse economic effects that would entail.

Properly understood, the bulk of the provisions in the recovery package contribute to job creation and preservation. In many cases, however, it will not be meaningful to try to trace a link between specific measures and specific jobs created. Money that is spent by food stamp or unemployment insurance recipients, by state employees who keep their jobs because of state fiscal relief, or by employees of firms doing business with the state who keep their jobs for the same reason – all of this creates additional demand for a wide variety of goods and services that preserves and protects jobs broadly through the economy. Using standard methods of analysis, Obama Administration economists estimate that more than half the jobs that a package similar to the Congressional recovery package would create would arise from these indirect effects, as the package’s boost to demand multiplies through the economy.[6]

http://www.cbpp.org/2-5-09bud.htm
 
I agree with you. That's why I am glad that the Bill doesn't do that.

Here's a good explanation of how the Bill will create jobs. I trust it will correct some your misunderstanding of the matter.


stuff
Creating government jobs does not stimulate an economy.
 
So you do recognize that he posts contentious things and refuses to participate in a two way discussion after. That's good.

I guess we can't introduce any levity in here. Can't make a joke for entertainment sake for fear you won't get it?

Are you seriously taking issue with us calling him a Jagger-bot?
It was based upon his tendency to come into the forum and cut and paste non-topical arguments around the internet, usually about guns. And then, he did this:
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=47930&
hence- the jagger-bot. The artificial internet intelligence that has programmed responses, just not intelligent ones.



Yes, he has. Everyone has... even foxpaws has her own special style of digging it in and twisting. That's the nature of a forum like this. But to imply that either Shag or I don't engage in honest debate is absurd. We both, often needlessly, even honestly respond to the most absurd arguments from the most hostile trolls.

And based on your perception, you haven't been lurking around here very long. Maybe a couple weeks, but not very long at all.


Well, then engage the jagger-bot in a devil's advocate argument.. Just give the program a test run.

Nah, Jagger bot is an entertaining and apt nickname. I'm thinking of other threads where I see that behavior. I don't mean to imply that you two aren't engaging in honest debate, simply that you're adding clutter here & there that doesn't belong. Really it's made for some good reading seeing the spirited debate here, I enjoy it. It is unusual to see both sides doing their homework so diligently and presenting such good arguments - and I think that's why I hate seeing so much the accusations of lies and twisting when it would fit to simply demonstrate why the other person is wrong instead of saying that they are lying and twisting the facts.

And you hit it spot on, I've been lurking for a coupla weeks, right around when things kicked off with the new administration and the controversy started in earnest.

I think I'll pass giving Jagger a test run, though. I've already seen what happens.
 
Peter Schiff: Stimulus Bill Will Lead to "Unmitigated Disaster"

Posted Feb 06, 2009 08:05am EST by Aaron Task in Investing, Newsmakers, Recession

The fiscal stimulus bill being debated in Congress not only won't help the economy, it will make the recession much worse, says Peter Schiff, president of Euro Pacific Capital.

Schiff scoffs at the notion the economic decline is starting to level off and concedes no government action means a "terrible" recession. But the path of increased government intervention will lead to "unmitigated disaster," says Schiff, who gained notoriety in 2007-08 for his prescient calls on the housing bubble and U.S. stocks.

The problem, he says, is the government is trying to perpetuate a "phony economy" based on borrowing and spending. With the U.S. consumer tapped out, the government is "now taking on the mantle" of consumer of last resort, he continues, predicting the bond bubble will soon burst - if it hasn't already - ultimately leading to a collapse of the dollar and an "inflationary depression worse than anything any of us have ever seen."

If nothing else, Schiff is an nonpartisan critic of American policymakers, comparing President Bush to Herbert Hoover and President Obama to FDR, and neither in a favorable way.

Link
 
What I’m saying is, we’re not having earmarks in the recovery package, period. -Obama, Jan 7, 2009
Contrast with:
Then there’s the argument, well, this is full of pet projects. When was the last time that we saw a bill of this magnitude move out with no earmarks in it? Not one.

-Obama, Feb 5, 2009
 
So Jagger-bot, based on your readings and your support of the current "stimulus" plan, how long do you think it'll take for a full recovery?
Here are two benchmarks:
5% unemployment or the advertised 3M new jobs?

Will this be the last trillion dollar package that the Democrats and Obama pass in what remains of their two years in insane power?

And do you have any concerns about the possible inflationary effect of the policy?
 
Foxy

"...even Foxpaws has her own special style of digging it in and twisting..."

Yeah, but with Foxy, I gotta confess that I'm in...No, I'll just say 'In Like'. If Mary Matalin can put up with Skeletor, well what the Hay!
KS
 
So Jagger-bot, based on your readings and your support of the current "stimulus" plan, how long do you think it'll take for a full recovery?

...the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has conducted an analysis of the macroeconomic impact of the Inouye-Baucus amendment in the nature of a substitute to H.R. 1. CBO estimates that this Senate legislation would raise output and lower unemployment for several years, with effects broadly similar to those of H.R. 1 as introduced. In the longer run, the legislation would result in a slight decrease in gross domestic product (GDP) compared with CBO’s baseline economic forecast.

Read more of the CBO's analysis of the macroeconomic impact of the Inouye-Baucus amendment at http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/96xx/doc9619/Gregg.pdf

...do you have any concerns about the possible inflationary effect of the policy?
Not really...
 
Creating government jobs does not stimulate an economy.

lol-cartoon-ag1.gif


I just saw one of the newly hired City of Plano lawyers buying stuff at Macy's, which will increase "aggregate consumer spending", which drives the U. S. economy?
 
CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

President Obama's economic recovery package will actually hurt the economy more in the long run than if he were to do nothing, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.

CBO, the official scorekeepers for legislation, said the House and Senate bills will help in the short term but result in so much government debt that within a few years they would crowd out private investment, actually leading to a lower Gross Domestic Product over the next 10 years than if the government had done nothing.

CBO estimates that by 2019 the Senate legislation would reduce GDP by 0.1 percent to 0.3 percent on net. [The House bill] would have similar long-run effects, CBO said in a letter to Sen. Judd Gregg, New Hampshire Republican, who was tapped by Mr. Obama on Tuesday to be Commerce Secretary.

The House last week passed a bill totaling about $820 billion while the Senate is working on a proposal reaching about $900 billion in spending increases and tax cuts.

But Republicans and some moderate Democrats have balked at the size of the bill and at some of the spending items included in it, arguing they won't produce immediate jobs, which is the stated goal of the bill.

The budget office had previously estimated service the debt due to the new spending could add hundreds of millions of dollars to the cost of the bill -- forcing the crowd-out.

CBOs basic assumption is that, in the long run, each dollar of additional debt crowds out about a third of a dollars worth of private domestic capital, CBO said in its letter.

CBO said there is no crowding out in the short term, so the plan would succeed in boosting growth in 2009 and 2010.

The agency projected the Senate bill would produce between 1.4 percent and 4.1 percent higher growth in 2009 than if there was no action. For 2010, the plan would boost growth by 1.2 percent to 3.6 percent.

CBO did project the bill would create jobs, though by 2011 the effects would be minuscule.
 
lol-cartoon-ag1.gif


I just saw one of the newly hired City of Plano lawyers buying stuff at Macy's, which will increase "aggregate consumer spending", which drives the U. S. economy?
Your petty anecdotal evidence notwithstanding, my statement still stands.
 
Honest debate sticks to the facts without labeling and insulting, and while Mick has probably violated that sentiment, I have not seen it, but I have indeed seen both Shag and Cal do so repeatedly.

I've been reading a lot longer than I've been posting.

Apparently not long enough. to get an accurate picture you need to go back at least a year (probably longer).

And no, honest debate doesn't mean "sticking to the fact without labeling and insultings". Honest debate simply involves.....honesty. :eek: :eek:

If you want to make a case for avoiding "labels" and "insults" in a debate, equivocation on the term "honest debate" is not the way to do it; it is inherently dishonest.
 
CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul

President Obama's economic recovery package will actually hurt the economy more in the long run than if he were to do nothing, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.
That''s a lie. The report says no such thing.

CBO, the official scorekeepers for legislation, said the House and Senate bills will help in the short term but result in so much government debt that within a few years they would crowd out private investment, actually leading to a lower Gross Domestic Product over the next 10 years than if the government had done nothing.
That''s another lie. The report says no such thing.
 
Yes, he has. Everyone has... even foxpaws has her own special style of digging it in and twisting. That's the nature of a forum like this. But to imply that either Shag or I don't engage in honest debate is absurd. We both, often needlessly, even honestly respond to the most absurd arguments from the most hostile trolls.
Diggging and twisting is one thing.
Questioning ones honesty...out right calling them a liar is something else.
foxpaws has never done that...and I doubt she ever will even if she thinks a agument is based in fallacy

And based on your perception, you haven't been lurking around here very long. Maybe a couple weeks, but not very long at all.

I guess it dosen't take long to observe the behavior of some members that post here.

I don't even know how somebody can call this pork project a stimulus with a straight face.

Ahh some common ground.
There is so much fat in this bill Obama should be shot if he signs it.
His approval rating will tank when he does.
 

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