Edwards the Fa...errrr...Hypocrite

[Calabrio]

I was simply trying to say that religion should not be brought into politics. Too many wars have been fought over religion. Too many innocent civilians have died because of religious differences. We need to stop the bloodshed.

First, let me say that although I didn't quote the first half of your response, I do respect you for having written it and not stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the information provided.

With that said, please, don't use the "too many people have died because of religion" line. That's such a silly statement, yet it's used so often.

How many people died in World War I? 19,800,000
World War II? 62,500,000
How many people died because of Stalin? 43,000,000
Mao Ze-Dong in China? 49,000,000
Pol Pot killed 1,200,000
Saddam Hussein killed 600,000 Kurds.

Where's the religion? I just put together a short list of 176,100,000 people killed in conflict that had NOTHING to do with religion within the past century.

You're repeating a false statement, one that isn't challenged enough. Religion isn't the source of conflict in the world. Communism, which bans religion, has killed far more people within one century than religion.

Which, reminds me, aren't Christians taught to turn the other cheek, and to forgive and forget? Why do so many Christians support the war on terror. Should we not turn the other cheek or forgive them?

No. You're interpretation of Christianity is absolutely incorrect. You're not supposed to turn the other cheek to people who are trying to kill you. Christianity isn't a suicide pact.

 

[DLS8K]

First, let me say that although I didn't quote the first half of your response, I do respect you for having written it and not stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the information provided.

With that said, please, don't use the "too many people have died because of religion" line. That's such a silly statement, yet it's used so often.

How many people died in World War I? 19,800,000
World War II? 62,500,000
How many people died because of Stalin? 43,000,000
Mao Ze-Dong in China? 49,000,000
Pol Pot killed 1,200,000
Saddam Hussein killed 600,000 Kurds.

Where's the religion? I just put together a short list of 176,100,000 people killed in conflict that had NOTHING to do with religion within the past century.

You're repeating a false statement, one that isn't challenged enough. Religion isn't the source of conflict in the world. Communism, which bans religion, has killed far more people within one century than religion.


No. You're interpretation of Christianity is absolutely incorrect. You're not supposed to turn the other cheek to people who are trying to kill you. Christianity isn't a suicide pact.

I don't know if I agree with you statement "Religion isn't the source of conflict in the world. Communism, which bans religion is?" Firstly, that statement is not factual....merely opinion. Secondly, would you consider the deaths that occur in the current war are religious? I'm willing to bet you would say not. However, what you fail to realize is that for the opposing side, it is a war based on religion. So which numbers are you choosing?

So, I took the liberty of finding a few statistics for you and Fossten just to show the many many people have died as a result of relgious differences.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatv.htm#Biblical

Also, I noticed you failed to include the Crusades. What about the Crusades???

 

[shagdrum]

U must consider that the reason behind most of the killing in the twentieth century was due to "maintaining" political power,trying to gain more power, or in the process of losing power. People have used religion as an excuse to maintain or gain power and control throughout the past, but these killings r hardly motivated by religion. Totalitarian regimes view religion as a threat to their power and many times kill people of faith to nullify this threat. I would argue that religion, as a true motivation for murder, wars, conflict has not had as big an impact as many imply. It has been used to justify power plays (or defense from power plays) in the past, and many say these r religious killings, which would be intellectually dishonest.

 

[DLS8K]

U must consider that the reason behind most of the killing in the twentieth century was due to "maintaining" political power,trying to gain more power, or in the process of losing power. People have used religion as an excuse to maintain or gain power and control throughout the past, but these killings r hardly motivated by religion. Totalitarian regimes view religion as a threat to their power and many times kill people of faith to nullify this threat. I would argue that religion, as a true motivation for murder, wars, conflict has not had as big an impact as many imply. It has been used to justify power plays (or defense from power plays) in the past, and many say these r religious killings, which would be intellectually dishonest.

No, that is a reason.......not an excuse. I'm sorry, but some of you seem to think of communism as the scapegoat for deaths in the name of religion. Your religion is not free of fault and neither is anyone elses.

And how can you say that regimes view religion as a threat and then counter yourself by saying that isn't the reason those people are killed? You just said that the religions are viewed as a threat!

And again I say, take a look back at history. I'm willing to bet more people have been murdered in the name of a God or religious movement than for pure whim.

I'll pose one question to you bible-thumpers...when an American soldier dies at the hand of a Jihadist, does he die as part of a relgious cause?

 

[fossten]

I have been misinformed through a school system that is obviously failing us. I was even in the advanced history and they still taught us wrong. Sorry guys, and thanks for the clarification.

As for me being a Christian hater, that's simply not true. I have a belief in God. It probably differs from yours (and no fossten, my idea of God is not red with firey eyes and a pitch fork). I don't know what God is, for all I know It could be a physical force. I don't know, no one can be certain of it.

I was simply trying to say that religion should not be brought into politics. Too many wars have been fought over religion. Too many innocent civilians have died because of religious differences. We need to stop the bloodshed. Which, reminds me, aren't Christians taught to turn the other cheek, and to forgive and forget? Why do so many Christians support the war on terror. Should we not turn the other cheek or forgive them?

Christians are taught to turn the other cheek only in regard to witnessing for Christ. In defending themselves and their families, Jesus and the Bible are very clear. There are numerous situations in the Old Testament where God's people went around armed with swords (the handgun of that day), and Jesus instructed his disciples to carry swords as well, to defend themselves against bandits, etc. In fact, when Peter cut off the ear of the high priest's servant, and Jesus healed the man, he told Peter to "put up" his sword, not discard it. Turning the other cheek should be a decision of choice, not necessity.

Furthermore, where the New Testament urges Christians to obey their rulers, a study of the scriptures yields the interesting fact that nowhere in the Bible does God tell Christians to yield to tyranny. There is a difference. This country would not exist today if Christians in 1776 had not thrown off the yoke of tyrannical Britain and King George by using violence.

 

[shagdrum]

No, that is a reason.......not an excuse. I'm sorry, but some of you seem to think of communism as the scapegoat for deaths in the name of religion. Your religion is not free of fault and neither is anyone elses.

And how can you say that regimes view religion as a threat and then counter yourself by saying that isn't the reason those people are killed? You just said that the religions are viewed as a threat!

And again I say, take a look back at history. I'm willing to bet more people have been murdered in the name of a God or religious movement than for pure whim.

I'll pose one question to you bible-thumpers...when an American soldier dies at the hand of a Jihadist, does he die as part of a relgious cause?

In answer to your question, when an american soldier dies in said instance it is due to one groups specific interpretation of Islam. That interpretation is used to justify the means used to achieve a political/social end.

Communism in and of it self is just a political theory (a heavely flawed one). One of the problems with Communism is a SEVERE misunderstanding of human nature. It views human nature as perfectible and all negative qualities in humans as coming from outside influences. When Communism is applied it meets with true human nature (equal cappacity for both good and evil). Communism in the real world inherently breeds a unique totalitaranism due to corruption at the leadership level (among other things). That unique totalitarianism has killed large amounts of people in just the past hundred years. Much more then any interpretation of religion. Especially if u put into context the difference in the amount of time each has been around. In the past 100 year, communism has killed well over 100 million. Can u say in any way religion has inspired the killing of anywhere close to that many people in a 100 or even a 150 year period.

As to communist regimes killing religious people, it is the communist view that religion is a threat to their power that causes the killing, not the religion in and of itself. U have to look at the root cause of things, and acknowledge political power plays for what they are, not just look for any excuse to blame religion.

 

[fossten]

Let's also not forget how many millions of people have been murdered and enslaved by Islam versus the millions of people that have been set free by Christianity.

 

[DLS8K]

In answer to your question, when an american soldier dies in said instance it is due to one groups specific interpretation of Islam. That interpretation is used to justify the means used to achieve a political/social end.

Communism in and of it self is just a political theory (a heavely flawed one). One of the problems with Communism is a SEVERE misunderstanding of human nature. It views human nature as perfectible and all negative qualities in humans as coming from outside influences. When Communism is applied it meets with true human nature (equal cappacity for both good and evil). Communism in the real world inherently breeds a unique totalitaranism due to corruption at the leadership level (among other things). That unique totalitarianism has killed large amounts of people in just the past hundred years. Much more then any interpretation of religion. Especially if u put into context the difference in the amount of time each has been around. In the past 100 year, communism has killed well over 100 million. Can u say in any way religion has inspired the killing of anywhere close to that many people in a 100 or even a 150 year period.

As to communist regimes killing religious people, it is the communist view that religion is a threat to their power that causes the killing, not the religion in and of itself. U have to look at the root cause of things, and acknowledge political power plays for what they are, not just look for any excuse to blame religion.

I do understand your last paragraph......I just don't fully agree with it for the reasons I already gave. If someone dies because of their religious differences...........regardless of the "root" than I feel that it is a death attributed to religion.

In response to the bold portion......I didn't know we were being selective in our history.

 

[shagdrum]

In reguards to the highlighted portion of the quote:
I say that to keep things in perspective. It would be un fair to try to draw a parallel between deaths atributed to cause "A" over the course of say 1000 years vs. deaths in reguards to cause "B" over the course of 100 years. Trying to compare apples to apples as much as possible.