Finally, someone willing to take on the Usurper

[lincolnx2]

Court marshalls don't do anything, you only go to jail for serious crimes ie..murder, I had a squad leader, who cheated on his wife with a jr soldier, wore a pathfinder badge unlawfully, disobeyed a no contact order, got another jr. soldier pregnant, he only got 6 months, and a dishonorable discharge.

 

[Calabrio]

hypothetical... and I'm not presenting it to draw some kind of direct parallel.

But if there were a circumstance where there was a President who violated the constitution and stayed in power beyond their 2 terms or clearly engaged in fraud (in 3rd world style) to steal the office- are you still committed to follow the orders of the CIC?

I think part of the reason this guy is doing what he's doing is because he's uniquely able to present standing to sue.

 

[lincolnx2]

hypothetical... and I'm not presenting it to draw some kind of direct parallel.

But if there were a circumstance where there was a President who violated the constitution and stayed in power beyond their 2 terms or clearly engaged in fraud (in 3rd world style) to steal the office- are you still committed to follow the orders of the CIC?

Yes, I will obey all lawful orders given to me by officers appointed over me. He was elected president by majority of the american people, He is the Commander in Chief until the supreme court decides otherwise. If there were a case like you mentioned above, he would not be "president" the newly elected president would be the CIC. I hope I answered it or you.

I think part of the reason this guy is doing what he's doing is because he's uniquely able to present standing to sue.

I don't know this for sure, but I honestly think he recieved orders to deploy, and this is his only way out of it, just as the Major did. This guy will not be looked at as a hero, just think what all of his subordinates will think, he is dodging war, I have been overseas 4 times, sure I dont agree with what we are doing, and I dont agree with the president, but I took an oath to protect and defend the constitution and us, I will obey ALL orders given to me by senior officers. The military just isnt the same.

 

[Calabrio]

Yes, I will obey all lawful orders given to me by officers appointed over me.

But then where is the loyalty then?
You're sworn to protect and defend the constitution, not any individual or group of political individuals?

Do you see how that's a problem?

He was elected president by majority of the american people, He is the Commander in Chief until the supreme court decides otherwise.

The Supreme Court can only make that decision is someone with standing to sue takes it to court.... that's what this officer is doing.

If there were a case like you mentioned above, he would not be "president" the newly elected president would be the CIC. I hope I answered it or you.

Again, I think you answered it, but I find the answer troublesome.
That means you're swearing an allegiance to an office and not the principles of the constitution. That's alarming.

If that's the case, how do you deal with orders that violate the rights protected by the constitution? Do you object to them or simply follow the orders of the CIC?


Do you disobey them or just follow orders?

I don't know this for sure, but I honestly think he recieved orders to deploy, and this is his only way out of it, just as the Major did.

"Lakin serves as Chief of Primary Care and Flight Surgeon for the DiLorenzo TRICARE Health Clinic and is lead Flight Surgeon charged with caring for Army Chief of Staff General Casey’s pilots and air crew. His numerous awards and decorations include the Army Flight Surgeon’s Badge, Combat Medical Badge, the Bronze Star Medal, the Meritorious Service Medal, the Army Commendation Medal with three Oak Leaf Clusters, the Army Achievement Medal with two Oak Leaf Clusters, the National Defense Service Medal with Bronze Service Star, the Armed Forced Expedition Medal, the Army Reserve Component Achievement Medal, the Army Service Ribbon, the Overseas Service Ribbon and the NATO service medal."
It doesn't sound like this guy is some reservist who regrets going into the Army to pay for college here.

If he thinks the constitution is being subverted, doesn't he have an obligation to fight this?
His promise was to "preserve protect and defend" the constitution, he's not a member of the royal guard.

And the only way to take these cases to court is to having standing- and active duty soldiers are among the few that arguably have the necessary standing.

I don't think he's looking for a hero label, but he's taking a position of principle that will clearly alienate him from those around him.

 

[Calabrio]

A quote:

"I feel I have no choice but the distasteful one of inviting my own court martial," said Lt. Col. Terry Lakin, an active-duty flight surgeon charged with caring for Army Chief of Staff Gen. George Casey's pilots and air crew. "The Constitution matters. The truth matters."

"For the first time in all my years of service to our great nation, and at great peril to my career and future, I am choosing to disobey what I believe are illegal orders, including an order to deploy to Afghanistan for my second tour of duty there. I will disobey my orders to deploy because I – and I believe all servicemen and women and the American people – deserve the truth about President Obama's constitutional eligibility to the office of the presidency and the commander in chief.

"If he is ineligible, then my orders – and indeed all orders – are illegal because all orders have their origin with the commander in chief as handed down through the chain of command."

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=134593

 

[lincolnx2]

But then where is the loyalty then?
You're sworn to protect and defend the constitution, not any individual or group of political individuals?.

They loyalty is to the United States, the United States is "ran" by politicians.

Do you see how that's a problem?.

I do see how thats a problem, but thats the way it is.

The Supreme Court can only make that decision is someone with standing to sue takes it to court.... that's what this officer is doing..

Why did this officer wait until he recieved orders to Afghanistan to make a case, why wasn't his case presented on Jan 21, 2008?

Again, I think you answered it, but I find the answer troublesome.
That means you're swearing an allegiance to an office and not the principles of the constitution. That's alarming..

I swear allegiance to the US and the officers appointed over me ie... Gen Casey, President Obama, they are suppose to be guardians of the constitution.

If that's the case, how do you deal with orders that violate the rights protected by the constitution? Do you object to them or simply follow the orders of the CIC?.

You follow all lawful orders!

Do you disobey them or just follow orders? .

"Lakin serves as Chief of Primary Care and Flight Surgeon for the DiLorenzo TRICARE Health Clinic and is lead Flight Surgeon charged with caring for Army Chief of Staff General Casey’s pilots and air crew. His numerous awards and decorations include the Army Flight Surgeon’s Badge, Combat Medical Badge, the Bronze Star Medal, the Meritorious Service Medal, the Army Commendation Medal with three Oak Leaf Clusters, the Army Achievement Medal with two Oak Leaf Clusters, the National Defense Service Medal with Bronze Service Star, the Armed Forced Expedition Medal, the Army Reserve Component Achievement Medal, the Army Service Ribbon, the Overseas Service Ribbon and the NATO service medal."
It doesn't sound like this guy is some reservist who regrets going into the Army to pay for college here..

Please dont be fooled by this bio, I am not trying to brag, but I have a Combat Medic Badge, 4 Army achievement medals, 4 army commendation medals, 4 overseas ribbons, and I just hit my 7 year anniversary. I feel this guy deployed once (I apologize) and doesnt want to go back.

If he thinks the constitution is being subverted, doesn't he have an obligation to fight this?
His promise was to "preserve protect and defend" the constitution, he's not a member of the royal guard..

His only obligation is to obey the orders of the officer appointed over him, and they will defend the constitution, he is just a small part of the mission.

And the only way to take these cases to court is to having standing- and active duty soldiers are among the few that arguably have the necessary standing..

Do you realize what will happen to our fighting force then? Just imagine me telling someone to do Pre combat inspections, and they say "no" the CIC shouldnt be in office, I will not hesitate to put a bullet in his head, because he is putting my men and in a dangerous situation.

I don't think he's looking for a hero label, but he's taking a position of principle that will clearly alienate him from those around him.

I think he got all of his training probably for free, and he is ready to get out. He will not be court marshalled, the Army has spent too much money on him, they sent him to medical school, flight surgeon school and that right there is over 500K easily.

 

[lincolnx2]

A quote:

"I feel I have no choice but the distasteful one of inviting my own court martial," said Lt. Col. Terry Lakin, an active-duty flight surgeon charged with caring for Army Chief of Staff Gen. George Casey's pilots and air crew. "The Constitution matters. The truth matters."

"For the first time in all my years of service to our great nation, and at great peril to my career and future, I am choosing to disobey what I believe are illegal orders, including an order to deploy to Afghanistan for my second tour of duty there. I will disobey my orders to deploy because I – and I believe all servicemen and women and the American people – deserve the truth about President Obama's constitutional eligibility to the office of the presidency and the commander in chief.

"If he is ineligible, then my orders – and indeed all orders – are illegal because all orders have their origin with the commander in chief as handed down through the chain of command."

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=134593

If thats the case, should I question my orders when I recieve them, or should I go help my brothers and sister who are already there? My loyalty lies with my brothers and sister in the military, officers and enlisted, I am not worried about politics, I leave that to the people with stars on their uniform. Why hasn't Gen Casey, Gen. Patreaus (republican) or Gen McChrystal questioned it?

 

[fossten]

Why did this officer wait until he recieved orders to Afghanistan to make a case, why wasn't his case presented on Jan 21, 2008?

Obama wasn't President then.

If thats the case, should I question my orders when I recieve them, or should I go help my brothers and sister who are already there? My loyalty lies with my brothers and sister in the military, officers and enlisted, I am not worried about politics, I leave that to the people with stars on their uniform. Why hasn't Gen Casey, Gen. Patreaus (republican) or Gen McChrystal questioned it?

Nuremberg defense.

 

[lincolnx2]

Obama wasn't President then..

ok, why didnt he present his case on Jan 21 2009? Could it be that he didn't have orders!

Nuremberg defense.

You can disobey UNLAWFUl orders, it seems like the nurembegr defense is for war time crimes ie... Col Steele incident. 2nd, the military has made a change for the worse since you were in, there is a word used called NO!, I know crazy right?

 

[shagdrum]

But if someone is not constitutionally eligible for the office, he is not legitimately commander-in-chief, regardless of the election.

At that point, any orders stemming from that person would be from an illegitimate commander-in-chief. Following those orders would be an abrogation of your duty to defend the Constitution. Does the duty to obey the president trump the duty to defend the Constitution? Can you verify that either way?

 

[shagdrum]

ok, why didnt he present his case on Jan 21 2009? Could it be that he didn't have orders!

Also that he likely wouldn't have had STANDING.

 

[lincolnx2]

But if someone is not constitutionally eligible for the office, he is not legitimately commander-in-chief, regardless of the election.

At that point, any orders stemming from that person would be from an illegitimate commander-in-chief. Following those orders would be an abrogation of your duty to defend the Constitution. Does the duty to obey the president trump the duty to defend the Constitution? Can you verify that either way?

I am on my way out the door, I will ask though, they are going to think I am try to overthrow the president

 

[Calabrio]

Again, I don't think that argument he's presenting carries any water. I think he was born in Hawaii. But that's why I'm trying to approach this from a more hypothetical angle.

As it appears, this officer is not only highly decorated, he's already served one term in Afghanistan. So this doesn't appear to be an example of an officer being derelict.
But if a soldier honestly, and sincerely, is convinced that the people ordering him doing so in a manner that violates the law or the constitution, he has a obligation to stand up and object to it. That may be the best way to defend the constitution.

If your superiors are at odds with the law, you're obligated, socially, ethically, and legally, to defy such orders. We are a nation of laws, not men.

And to address some of your immediately relevant concerns, I would speculate that the timeline your referencing has as much to do with the legal issues than responding to inconvenient orders. The wheels of justice move slowly and only very specifically people have the ability or standing to make a legal challenge like this. Knowing how harshly this government is inclined to crush people like him and dissenters, I think he realizes the consequences of his defiance will be far worse than a deployment.

Let's go a littler farther-
If you are ordered to lead a group of soldiers into an American city and confiscate all of the legally owned firearms, do you do it? This is a realistic hypothetical- asking soldiers to act in direct defiance of the 2nd Amendment, the 4th amendment, and the Posse Comitatus act.

 

[Calabrio]

Army to court martial 'birther' officer
Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 4:10 PM by Mark Murray
Filed Under: Security

From NBC's Jim Miklaszewski and Mark Murray
U.S. military officials tell NBC News that the U.S. Army will court martial a lieutenant colonel who refuses to deploy to Afghanistan because he considers orders from President Obama to be "illegal."

Army doctor Lt. Col. Terry Lakin believes Obama does not meet the constitutional requirements to be president and commander-in-chief, because he believes (incorrectly) that Obama wasn't born in the United States.

Lakin refused this week to report to Fort Campbell, KY for deployment to Afghanistan, but instead showed up at the Pentagon, where he was confronted by his brigade Commander Col. Gordon Roberts, a Vietnam Medal of Honor recipient.

Lakin was informed by Roberts that he would face court martial, and his Pentagon building pass and government laptop computer were seized.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/04/13/2267021.aspx

 

[hrmwrm]

he got his wish. he won't be going to afghanistan.

 

[Calabrio]

he got his wish. he won't be going to afghanistan.

Everything about this particular story indicates that this wasn't about avoiding a deployment, but pursuing a principle. Whether I think he's well advised is besides the point.

This doesn't appear to be some 24 year old guy who just had all of his education and medical school paid for who now has suddenly discovered he's a conscientious objector and moving to Canada.

The guy is said to be a decorated vet with previous deployment.
And he's just volunteered to walk into a combine because of the nature of his objection. So, it's unlikely this is a convenient way for him to chose the path of least resistance.

 

[hrmwrm]

well, if he moved to canada, he wouldn't be getting court martialed.(except in absentia)
in looking for an out, it may be the path of least resistance. have to wait until the court martial is over.
just because he's served before doesn't mean he wants to go back into active duty in a war zone.

 

[fossten]

just because he's served before doesn't mean he wants to go back into active duty in a war zone.

LOL classic hrmwrm, offers no evidence but dismisses someone else's.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I saw an article on tv the other night that showed two hawaii newspapers that as a matter of record(they do it with every birth) publish the births in Hawaii on a daily basis.
They listed the birth of Obama on the day he was born.
The papers were dated the day of his birth.
Now how would these two news papers have any idea back then this birth was going to one day be the president of the united states.
They certainly would not have published that birth if it didn't happen.
I belive it was shown on the factor.
Might be possible to search the factor achives and see if it comes up.
Bob.

 

[Calabrio]

I saw an article on tv the other night that showed two hawaii newspapers that as a matter of record(they do it with every birth) publish the births in Hawaii on a daily basis.
They listed the birth of Obama on the day he was born.
The papers were dated the day of his birth.
Now how would these two news papers have any idea back then this birth was going to one day be the president of the united states.
They certainly would not have published that birth if it didn't happen.
I belive it was shown on the factor.
Might be possible to search the factor achives and see if it comes up.
Bob.

This thread isn't about whether or not Obama was born in Kenya or Hawaii. I've repeatedly expressed how I think that Kenyan birth claim defies logic.

There is a conspicuous cover up regarding Obama's personal history, the "birther" issue is being used as a tool to distract, discredit, and ridicule his political opposition. It's bait.

 

[shagdrum]

I saw an article on tv the other night that showed two hawaii newspapers that as a matter of record(they do it with every birth) publish the births in Hawaii on a daily basis.
They listed the birth of Obama on the day he was born.
The papers were dated the day of his birth.
Now how would these two news papers have any idea back then this birth was going to one day be the president of the united states.
They certainly would not have published that birth if it didn't happen.
I belive it was shown on the factor.
Might be possible to search the factor achives and see if it comes up.
Bob.

Monstermark would be the person to talk to about that. It has already been covered in another thread. No need to distract from the focus of this thread...