GEN1 LS1 SWAP Lincoln Ls

[Dranoel_Dragon]

I have to say I admire your determination, tilting at windmills and all. Sort of reminds me of Johnny Cash's song "One Piece at a time".

If you do succeed, you should name the car "Rocinante".

 

[cammerfe]

The jeering of a sophomoric johnny-come-lately can safely be ignored, to a great extent.

Prove your regal bloodline before you are allowed to interject. I believe you are a simple peasant follower and not a good one at that and will call you 'Panza' even though none of your comments rise to a level such that they could be considered panchismos.

In my own case, at least, the past-its-prime steed still retains the title as a never-yet-beaten national record holder.

Go piss up a bellrope

KS

 

[RigsLS]

Quite the breath of fresh air you are these days huh KS?

Let me get my head around this .... DUMB it down for the rest of us 'not so smart people' like yourself.

~ You claim to hold the LS land speed record.
~ Others have difference of opinions with respect to LS engine swaps

* So this warrants the need for you to piss all over them? <-- Do I have that right? (sure seems like it)


Confucius say: it long fall from high horse!

​

 

[cammerfe]

I simply get tired of comments that come from a lack of thinking through before posting. We can all agree to disagree---but the newbie above has followed around several threads and made asinine comments---I think with a determination to show his erudition. So I answered rather bluntly.

I'm a little confused as to the content of part of your post. Are you suggesting that you're 'not-so-smart' or that I am? Your sentence construction leaves that up in the air.

You seem to be questioning the records I set with my '02 LS. You can look up ECTA Maxton records. I set, re-set, and re-set again the record in E/F CC. It stands to this day. The record I set in E/F SS has been superseded.

As for yourself...

I think you've painted yourself into a corner. You insist on championing the use of the latest iteration of the sbc although there seems to be good reason to believe that trying to get the car's electronics to play with the 'foreign' engine makes the project a non-starter. And yet you seem to be violently opposed to using a later version of the AJ engine that came in the car, which will work very well. I'm lost at that view of things and have to believe that you simply want to be argumentative.

But as I said above, we can simply agree to disagree.

KS

 

[1LoudLS]

your car may be pretty sweet if you ever get it put together. BUT at the end of the day, at least we have seen a LS built with a GM engine, as for seeing one with a built up jag AJ motor, well I guess we've only been waiting since November of 2007 ... hearing about how sweet something will be for years with it never getting finished gets old after awhile.

didn't you yourself say the proof is in the pudding? well theories are great, but things that have been completed is better than a bunch of hopes and a garage full of parts that just sit there.


I did say that in your case, it may very well be the easier route, but most of my comments to you is due to your hatred for GM blindly leading you to believe that they are garbage and can not cheaper to build up than most other motors out there that are ten time more complex which is just not the case, but I guess you would have to actually mess around with them to know what was possible.

In response to your comments---Grunch, but an eggplant over there! It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide! (All this makes as much sense as what you've had to say.)

that's a pretty good one there, totally makes sense and solidifies all your thoughts and opinions...

I guess you've got me and I no longer have any combacks

 

[RigsLS]

I simply get tired of comments that come from a lack of thinking through before posting. We can all agree to disagree---but the newbie above has followed around several threads and made asinine comments---I think with a determination to show his erudition. So I answered rather bluntly.

I'm a little confused as to the content of part of your post. Are you suggesting that you're 'not-so-smart' or that I am? Your sentence construction leaves that up in the air.

You seem to be questioning the records I set with my '02 LS. You can look up ECTA Maxton records. I set, re-set, and re-set again the record in E/F CC. It stands to this day. The record I set in E/F SS has been superseded.

As for yourself...

I think you've painted yourself into a corner. You insist on championing the use of the latest iteration of the sbc although there seems to be good reason to believe that trying to get the car's electronics to play with the 'foreign' engine makes the project a non-starter. And yet you seem to be violently opposed to using a later version of the AJ engine that came in the car, which will work very well. I'm lost at that view of things and have to believe that you simply want to be argumentative.

But as I said above, we can simply agree to disagree.

KS

Bit of a tit you are being here now aren't ya!

You're confused as to the content of part of my post ... Your sentence construction ... AS LONG AS YOU FEEL GREAT ABOUT YOURSELF, THAT'S WHAT MATTERS!!!

You seem to be questioning the records I set with my ... NAH, DON'T THINK I DID, NOR COULD GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT IT REALLY!!! (<-- OK sentence construction ?)

As for yourself... HONESTLY I DIDN'T EXPECT ANYTHING LESS IN REBUTTAL, SEEN IT COMING A MILE AWAY, SO BIG YAWN ON THAT ONE!

I think you've painted yourself into a corner. You insist on championing the use of the ... yet you seem to be violently opposed to using a later version of the AJ engine that came in the car, which will work very well.

I'LL HAND YOU THAT BRUSH RIGHT BACK AND WITHOUT GOING BACK AND REREADING THIS ENTIRE THREAD, I KNOW FOR A FACT I DID NOT "violently oppose" ANYTHING. SEEMS TO ME, YOU MAKING STUFF UP AS YOU GO.


I'm lost at that view of things and have to believe that you simply want to be argumentative. OH STOP IT, YOU MUST HAVE ME CONFUSED WITH SOMEONE ELSE.


~ Now as far as telling others to go piss up a rope, a man of your intelligence with a firm grasp of the English language, finds this appropriate?


KS, you know ... over the years, I've actually admired many of your intellectual comments and positive posts, however I strongly feel that you've as of recent started acting your shoes size in age here in this thread only because others have a difference of opinion. No one here is going to start pissing up ropes while hunched-over with eyes squinted shut just because your set in your ways. Know who you are arguing with! He's still to date to turn that new leaf as per his own suggestion.


BRAVO ... you two can both keep it up until the admins come ROLLIN' in again!

 

[cammerfe]

You're the one doing the yelling.

As I said, we can simply agree to disagree.

I've made my points and they'll stand without reiteration.

Kudos to you for sticking up for someone less articulate than yourself

KS

 

[tijoe]

Play nice now…

I like to post data and provide information others can use rather than get caught up in difference of opinions.

One way to look at an engine swap is the $/hp. I looked up street prices of LSx based GM dropouts with lower mileage, New LSx engines, Modular Ford, and the New GT500 engine prices, then 4.2L Jaguar supercharged engines, and finally AJ-133 supercharged 5.0L Jaguar dropouts.

From the prices I wrote down from E-bay sold listings for all these different listings, I found that GM engines cost about $3-$5 less per HP than using a Jaguar engine. For new GM versus Jaguar 5.0L versus Ford engines, I found them to be very close to each other. (Until you look at new LS7 or LS9 GM engines. They cost significantly more than other new engines.)

To put in a Jaguar 4.2L Supercharged engine in a LS, you will need to use the ZF 6 speed trans. This makes electrical portion of the swap almost as difficult as putting in a GM LSX engine and transmission. (LS and Jaguar ECMs are different and I believe the harnesses don’t plug and play either.) If you want to have a manual transmission in your swap, there isn’t one possible for the Jaguar 4.2L engine. (Unless you can program an ECM .) I chose to put a LS3 into my old 2000 S-type because I wanted a 6-speed Manual trans. I couldn’t do that without a ton of work using a Jaguar engine. A N/A 6.2L LS3 engine puts out over 430hp, and the Jaguar 4.2L supercharged engine puts out just a bit over 400hp. You can get the LS3 to 550hp very easily. To get a 600hp Jaguar engine, you have to bore it out to 4.8L, and at a minimum use a KB twin-screw supercharger.

From my perspective, each swap approach has its own merits. The Jaguar engine will mechanically fit a lot easier than LSx engines. Both have electrical/ECM challenges, but the Jaguar swap would be easier, because it is Jaguar/Ford talking to Ford control systems.
I believe that the 4.2L generation Jaguar engines will be a PITA to get parts for in the not so distant future. LSx engines are common and parts will be available for a long time.

You can easily purchase LSx engines. There are only a few OEM 4.2 long blocks left in the USA. The 4.2L jaguar drop-out engines that are available are difficult to find with less than 75K miles on them.

The real question is: Is it worth all the work and effort to put $15K to $20K into a relatively heavy sedan worth $2k to $6K. The car can be built to be quick, but will never be really fast.
I boils down to personal choice of what you want to do with your time, money and car…
If you have the time and money to do it, then do it, otherwise if you just talk about it, others will flame you.

 

[RigsLS]

You're the one doing the yelling.

Yeah, sorry about that, didn't like that either, should have used a different colored crayon instead rather then CAPS.

Kudos to you for sticking up for someone less articulate than yourself

I'm sure they can fight their own battles, it just isn't getting us anywhere and in your frustrations to get others to agree with you, it's taking a turn for the worse.

Calling people back a week later to finish the fight is unnecessary. You express yourself very well, more so then anyone else on here I'm sure we can all agree to that, however people have different views and beliefs, which need to be respected as much as any respect you seek when delivering your own version.

Name calling and belittling others is below you, you're smarter then that, I know you are!

 

[1LoudLS]

tijoe: there is no room left in this thread for any logic like that! j/k

 

[SoulSoak]

Vtec

 

[cammerfe]

Play nice now…

One way to look at an engine swap is the $/hp. I looked up street prices of LSx based GM dropouts with lower mileage, New LSx engines, Modular Ford, and the New GT500 engine prices, then 4.2L Jaguar supercharged engines, and finally AJ-133 supercharged 5.0L Jaguar dropouts. From the prices I wrote down from E-bay sold listings for all these different listings, I found that GM engines cost about $3-$5 less per HP than using a Jaguar engine.

I've stated here a number of times that there venues that offer 4.2 Jag supercharged engines for $3 K to $4 K. Considering details, you are getting +/- 400 H P for your money. This works out to 7.5 to 10 dollars per horsepower. That would work out, as I do your math, to a cost of $3.5 to $5 for your chib. Is there something I'm not seeing ?

To put in a Jaguar 4.2L Supercharged engine in a LS, you will need to use the ZF 6 speed trans.

The bolt pattern is exactly the same for either the ZF or the 5R55N. I propose to use both the Lincoln trans and the Lincoln harness. I'll replace sensors as necessary so the ECM will work as configured. There may well be some necessity to extend or shorten wires in the harness and ditto regarding the throttle connection but these are simple jobs .

From my perspective, each swap approach has its own merits. The Jaguar engine will mechanically fit a lot easier than LSx engines. Both have electrical/ECM challenges, but the Jaguar swap would be easier, because it is Jaguar/Ford talking to Ford control systems. I believe that the 4.2L generation Jaguar engines will be a PITA to get parts for in the not so distant future. LSx engines are common and parts will be available for a long time. You can easily purchase LSx engines. There are only a few OEM 4.2 long blocks left in the USA. The 4.2L jaguar drop-out engines that are available are difficult to find with less than 75K miles on them.

I've had no difficulty finding complete AJ engines with about 60 K on the clock and I have most of an AJ engine for spare parts now, if needed. Ross had no trouble making me a set of forged pistons, Moldex makes crankshafts to order, and ditto on rods from GRP. Although I do race the car, and recognize the possibility of breakage, nothing has let go yet. Aside from aftermarket stuff, which is, as noted, readily available, I have at least a couple of everything I'm likely to need.

The real question is: Is it worth all the work and effort to put $15K to $20K into a relatively heavy sedan worth $2k to $6K. The car can be built to be quick, but will never be really fast.
I boils down to personal choice of what you want to do with your time, money and car…
If you have the time and money to do it, then do it, otherwise if you just talk about it, others will flame you.

The car is being built to be really fast. ECTA racing is about going fast, not quick, and I DO hold the record in my chosen class. In land speed racing the weight of the car is decidedly secondary.


Flamers seem to be largely from the direction of those who know all about it now that they're out of high school and have bought a cheap used car. My own is one I bought new and it has served me very well.

I do, very much, appreciate your input. You offer facts and reasons, not simply opinions. If we differ somewhat, I'll simply say that there is no human on the planet that I completely agree with.

KS

 

[FDR]

To put in a Jaguar 4.2L Supercharged engine in a LS, you will need to use the ZF 6 speed trans. [...] If you want to have a manual transmission in your swap, there isn’t one possible for the Jaguar 4.2L engine. (Unless you can program an ECM .) [...]
I believe that the 4.2L generation Jaguar engines will be a PITA to get parts for in the not so distant future.

So what is wrong with the 5r55n? I still don't understand why you have to use the ZF.

I still haven't seen anyone list what sensors are different between SC and non-SC engines, preventing a nearly direct engine swap. Do the SC sensors actually make using the stock non-SC PCM that impossible? It seems like the PCM shouldn't care, provided it can read the increased air intake readings and run an appropriate tune for the spark and fuel trims.

Parts are already pretty rare...

 

[tijoe]

If you plan on using a LS engine harness and sensors/accessories... Things to consider: You would be limited to AJ-33 supercharged engines. No VVT. Getting harder to find a lower mileage AJ-33 engine. (perhaps purchase an AJ-34 engine and lock/disable the VVT.) You will need to figure out if the throttle body and mass airflow controller are compatible with the LS ECM signals. I wonder how a LS ECM will react to the supercharger bypass valve, versus the shift points in a LS 5-speed trans. At a minimum you may have to reprogram the fuel trims/maps. The rest of the engine systems should be transparent to using a LS ECM.

 

[Telco]

So what is wrong with the 5r55n? I still don't understand why you have to use the ZF.

I still haven't seen anyone list what sensors are different between SC and non-SC engines, preventing a nearly direct engine swap. Do the SC sensors actually make using the stock non-SC PCM that impossible? It seems like the PCM shouldn't care, provided it can read the increased air intake readings and run an appropriate tune for the spark and fuel trims.

Parts are already pretty rare...

I don't know specifics, but in general a supercharged fuel injected engine requires a multi-bar MAP sensor and a computer program capable of interpreting it. For reference, 1BAR is about 14.7PSI, otherwise known as standard atmospheric pressure. 2BAR would be 29.4, and can handle a boosted engine up to around, I dunno, 13-14PSI. More than that and you need 3BAR, 4BAR, ect, depending on how much boost you need right up to the amount of boost needed to blow the heads through the hood. Or, the pistons through the oil pan, depending on whether the head bolts or connecting rods are the weak point.

The program also needs to be able to interpret boost situations vs non-boost, and adjust fuel accordingly. The spark table needs to be able to retard timing as boost comes on. There's more to it than this, of course. SCT is the tuner used for the LS, find their site and email them questions to see if their programmer will allow you to make these changes.

 

[tijoe]

Do the 3.9L LS engines have Manifold Air Temp Sensors? The supercharged AJ33 uses IAT1 and IAT 2. Would these be compatible with the LS ECM? On AJ34, engines Jaguar uses a combined MAP and AIT sensor. Most likely not controllable by a LS ECM.

 

[tijoe]

So what is wrong with the 5r55n? I still don't understand why you have to use the ZF.

I’ve been searching and reading Jaguar forum postings on transmission swaps between the 5 speed and 6 speed transmissions. I recall a few years back someone who wanted to put a 4.2 SC engine in a 2001 4.0L N/A S-type. Turned out to be a non-starter. I can’t remember the details, and haven’t found the thread yet.

I do know that the transmission control module (internal to the ZF 6speed trans) and traction control modules are dependent on each other. If you use the 4.2L SC ECM you will have to use the ZF 6 speed transmission. I assume that the same is true for the LS 5 speed. If you use a LS ECM you will need the 5 speed trans.

Based on what was posted by TELCO regarding the MAP sensor, there wont be the needed software in the LS ECM to properly run a supercharged engine.

It is reading more and more that the 4.2L SC engine with 5 speed trans is a not possible without a lot of electrical/ECM work.

But. Enthusiast put aftermarket supercharger kits on N/A engines all the time. What sensors do they require versus what is standard on the Jaguar Eaton setup? How are the ECMs reprogrammed to compensate for the boost?

 

[cammerfe]

Several comments.

First, thanks to you who are providing thoughtful input about the potential complications of this proposed project.
When I first started racing my '02 Sport I had an extended discussion with the folks at SCT. They seemed to have the idea that all the parameters necessary to 'hot-rodding', including supercharging either by turbo or positive displacement, were alterable using their gizmos.

When looking at getting the ECM to play under supercharged conditions, it'll be well to look at the extensive threads created here by 'QuikLS' and others. Quik did all the work to put an Eaton blower on his LS---the blower sourced from a Thunderbird, if I remember right. He drove it for several years, and might be still doing so if he hadn't been involved in a crash that totaled the car.

Several others have done some sort of turbo installation with varying degrees of success. None of them failed due to an inability to get the electronics to play properly. Most had hard parts failures. Or ran out of money.

The $$$ is why I've not yet completed my project. My real estate business took a dump and I've had to pay attention to virtually starting over again. I now live in an apartment and my car stuff is now in a storage space. But things are improving.

KS

 

[1LoudLS]

in general a supercharged fuel injected engine requires a multi-bar MAP sensor and a computer program capable of interpreting it.

I had an extended discussion with the folks at SCT. They seemed to have the idea that all the parameters necessary to 'hot-rodding', including supercharging either by turbo or positive displacement, were alterable using their gizmos.

this is true, we know that there are no problem getting a blower or snail to work with an LS PCM because it has been done a few times sucessfully. its actually very simple (relative of course) especially in the roots type setup since it so so liner in how it adds power... it really is as simple as just monitoring how much air comes in and adding enough fuel for it, when the bypass valve is open and its not making boost, it simply wont be sucking in nearly as much are through the MAF. the tuning for turbos would be a little more difficult but still, its already been done so we know that there not a problem with that.

 

[tijoe]

Partially due to this thread I've started to take apart my 03 STR refresh engine. I will be replacing most of the hoses, timing chains, "SC oil, snout bearings and coupler", knock sensors, along with associated gaskets and other hard to reach parts. I'll take numerous images and look at all the sensors associated with the supercharger. I can post pictures that will help future readers of this thread. I am wondering what a $2600.00 wrecking yard STR engine with 75K miles looks like internally.

 

[FDR]

I don't know specifics, but in general a supercharged fuel injected engine requires a multi-bar MAP sensor and a computer program capable of interpreting it.

The program also needs to be able to interpret boost situations vs non-boost, and adjust fuel accordingly. The spark table needs to be able to retard timing as boost comes on. There's more to it than this, of course. SCT is the tuner used for the LS, find their site and email them questions to see if their programmer will allow you to make these changes.

The StR makes ~13psi from the factory and can make 15psi with a pulley swap. But reading and interpreting the MAP reading is another thing to look into, thanks. (assuming there is a MAP sensor)

Wouldn't boost/non-boost still just be a relatively linear change going from vacuum to no vac/no boost to boost, only really changing the top end of the range?

I did have a short exchange with Torrie. He basically said he doesn't see any problem with tuning a boosted LS as he's done it before (yes, a Lincoln LS). Obviously he didn't say how they were boosted.

So what is wrong with the 5r55n? I still don't understand why you have to use the ZF.

I’ve been searching and reading Jaguar forum postings on transmission swaps between the 5 speed and 6 speed transmissions. I recall a few years back someone who wanted to put a 4.2 SC engine in a 2001 4.0L N/A S-type. Turned out to be a non-starter. I can’t remember the details, and haven’t found the thread yet.[...]

But. Enthusiast put aftermarket supercharger kits on N/A engines all the time. What sensors do they require versus what is standard on the Jaguar Eaton setup? How are the ECMs reprogrammed to compensate for the boost?

I'll try taking a look too. But your last point is why I still remain so hopeful (or stubborn?). In the very least, I would imagine that taking SC internals (for their strength) and intake (SC, routing, and hopefully the intercooler) should be the bare minimum to make it work. I already have a spare 3.9 to rip apart [ / ... bonus parts/I ruined it ]so a Hail Mary play is tear down two engines and make a hybrid of the two and use the spare parts to build a coffee table

First, thanks to you who are providing thoughtful input about the potential complications of this proposed project.

KS

It's almost surprising, isn't it? Anyway, again, I also appreciate the help. I still have a lot to learn, but I like to think I'm asking the right questions.

 

[tijoe]

I find it interesting that we are never satisfied with the performance of our cars. On this forum we are talking about putting a Jaguar SC engine into a LS. On other forums we discuss how we dislike the Eaton Supercharger on the 4.2L engine because owners can’t get over 500 HP. You have to go with a KB twin screw if you want more HP. (Proven numerous times) Several Jag owners are wondering why they can’t get over 600 HP when similar engines push 700 to 800 hp with the same modifications. Here we are discussing using a stock Eaton piece of crap M112 blower to work on a LS engine. If you are going to build an engine do it right and use a Kenne Bell twin screw!

On other threads and offline e-mails, we are discussing, camshaft profiles, cylinder head flow porting, and the limitations of the Jaguar intake manifold/intercooler design. As far as we can tell, only a few race teams have bench-flowed the different Jaguar/Rover heads. They have not released any information to anyone as far as we can tell. Best heads as far as we can tell are the GT3 race heads and Aston Martin AJ version of the heads. Presently I am trying to figure out the best intake runner shape and 4-valve chamber dome configuration that generates the best swirl, squish and an even burn. There is evidence that Jaguar cam profiles used low lift and limited overlap because of knocking, pinging and pre-ignition hot spots. A couple jag engines have been rebuilt with higher lift and overlap, and they ended up having to retard the timing to keep the engine running properly with a good idle, no pinging and to pass emissions.
I have interest in all of this because I am slowly, I mean very slowly, building up my 4.8L engine. I plan using a front fed twin screw SC that requires custom intake manifolds. Since I am going this far, I want to pump air into the cylinders and get the best results possible. Amazingly not much published about forced induction pent-roof 4-valve head design.

 

[cammerfe]

When I was first looking at the possibilities of going to supercharging---turbo-ing, I wangled an introduction to the folks actually road-racing a Jag. I found them to be very willing to be helpful and when, at their invitation, I went for a visit, I came away with both promises from them to provide input and also a pick-up truck-load of hard parts---from a set of cam blanks to the latest-best chains and guides and on to a dry-sump system.

They found it best to use an A-M casting as an intake manifold and made it clear that the plastic version wouldn't be up to the degree of boost I was planning on. Since A-M wants several thousand dollars for their manifold, I first thought of going to sheet-metal and then remembered that the blower engines don't use plastic.

I have a complete four litre version of the AJ and had gone as far as to have the block gone through, have a set of Ross pistons made, and a set of GRP rods and a Moldex crank made up. I went with the Honda rod journal size and had Moldex make the crank that way on the rods and go to SBF mains. I use inserts in the block to enable use of the SBF bearing shells.

I decided, as the next step, to simply put in a take-out AJ blower engine. With my extant nitrous oxide/methanol set-up I'll spray just methanol as a 'chemical' intercooler even when the bottle isn't turned on. And after I get everything sorted-out I'll put the 'trick' motor together and see how fast I can make it go in ECTA competition. The ultimate class is intended to be 'E' Blown Fuel Competition Coupe/Sedan.

I started this project as a learning experience before putting together an ultimate door-slammer. And Maxton (now Southern Ohio) is almost exactly a thousand miles closer than is Wendover Utah.

All it takes is money!

KS

 

[1LoudLS]

If you are going to build an engine do it right and use a Kenne Bell twin screw!

agreed!

never been a big fan of older roots based Eaton blowers, they are just too inefficient and create too much heat in the intake charge. they are great for low boost applications like what Quik was doing, but they just cant compete with a twin screw like KB or Whipple. plus the (generally) larger displacement of KB's they don't have to spin nearly as fast to make the same boost levels. however, newer eatons with TVS rotors are WAY more efficient than the older lobe styles.

I'm really surprised that Jag hasn't started using TVS like most manufactures. they are actually even more efficient than a twin screw as long as your not going super high on the boost side. comparing some of the efficiently maps, TVS is more efficient up to about 15-16 PSI, then the twin screws start to take over being a little more efficient. however, be careful if you have been looking at kenne bell's advertising info because they show their systems being more efficient over even a TVS based blower, but that mostly do to the KB being a larger displacement blower (KB doesnt make one as small as the new Eaton and Eaton doesn't make one as big as the KB yet) 2.3l vs 2.8l

 

[cammerfe]

The ultimate answer is turbos but one step at a time.

KS