GOP is Nailing its own Coffin

Maybe you should join the service Monstermark.

I would love to. One of the great regrets in my life. Too old now.

I best serve my country now by smacking down liberalism whenever I get the chance.

I'm pretty sure one of my boys will serve. I already bought him his 1st semi-automatic at the tender age of 6. No plastic toys for this guy. Been grooming him to kill islamo-fascists. I waterboard him every couple of months just to get him toughened up.
 
Since the Bush sentence on america is almost up we can forget about his DUI and self confessed alchoholic admission of drinking too much to the point of needing religion to quit at 40. During a secretly taped conversation he pretty well owned up to his own drug use while explaining why he would not comment about this when questioned by reporters during the election.
Bush only served in the National Guard knowing he was safe from real combat. Of course as president he sent the Guard to Iraq away from their stated purpose of protecting us here if we are attacked on american soil.
And Cheney had 2 DUI's in his past but he's out of office within a year also.
The typical person busted for DUI has probably driven drunk a thousand times before getting arrested.
I never said I didn't believe some of the swift boat claims just that this approach does not apply to McCain.
McCain being a war hero may be irrelevant to shagdrum but it does carry a lot of weight with plenty of voters.
Having experienced warfare first hand and decorated by the military he will be more thoughtful and caring about sending our troops into harms way.
 
The typical person busted for DUI has probably driven drunk a thousand times before getting arrested.

Looking in the mirror again.

Oh I get it, you've never had a drink in your life. Either that or you would never, ever, get into a car and turn the key if a drop of alcohol had crossed your lips.

Must be nice to live a perfect life.

We better hurry up and install those breathalyzes in every car, along with a chip to keep the car from going over the posted speed limit and the gps to let your boss know every-time you decide to stop at the local food store to pick something up for your wife if it happens to be during work hours.

I do understand the nanny-state is your idea of the perfect utopia.
 
I'm pretty sure one of my boys will serve. I already bought him his 1st semi-automatic at the tender age of 6. No plastic toys for this guy. Been grooming him to kill islamo-fascists. I waterboard him every couple of months just to get him toughened up.

OMG now thats funny :D :D
 
.

Barack Obama...he was too busy smoking pot, snorting coke and selling drugs to be of any use to anyone so he decided to become a 'liberal legislator' when he 'grew up'.

You brought this up and even embellished it accusing Obama of selling drugs, but excuse Bush with a well no one's perfect apology even though he was 30 when arrested(hardly a youthful indescretion)

Drunk driving(defined as being over .08 now, .10 when Bush and Cheney were arrested)is a serious social problem but you somehow extrapolate a few facts into a non sequeter accusing me of
favoring a nanny state utopia because it fits your silly stereotype and makes you somehow feel better.
Your responses strike me as bombastic, hot headed and
self discrediting.
At least fossten, shagrum and calabrio are calm and tempered in their retorts when skewering me.
 
Here you go

http://www.opednews.com/hamiltonAlex_100304_DUIDWI.htm

cheneys-1-dui.gif


cheneys-2-dui.gif
 

Interesting, hadn't heard that.

Gotta admit I am still a little skeptical, as the cite referenced doesn't seem like the most objective site in the world, and if you look hard enough I am sure you could find a Richard Cheney with a DUI record, or just forge the record (as in the case of the CBS/Dan Rather/ Bush national guard story). As is stands, I can't disprove it, but I also can't confirm it on another source. I only spent about 5 minutes looking, though. Started at Wikipedia.:)

*edit* Confirmed:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/vote2004/candidates/can_cheney-earlylife.html

Dissatisfied with the work, he reportedly began drinking more, leading to two DUI arrests within a year.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/12/AR2007071202102.html

After recounting Cheney's bucolic Nebraska boyhood, Hayes touches all the bases, ably relating his multiple failures as a scholarship student at Yale and the drinking (two DUI arrests) and dead-end jobs that subsequently filled his time back in Wyoming.
 
Ah, it was 1963 when Cheney was cited for drunk driving. 45 years ago. He was 22. Okay, I'll give you that one, he exercised poor judgment. See, I'm being intellectually honest.

Since you've failed to acknowledge my point about Clinton's draft dodging (not intellectually honest), let me make another one that you simply must address.

Clinton had numerous affairs, which are expository on his character. They also demonstrate bad judgment. He also lied about it to the American people, and unlike the "Bush lied" debunked baloney, this was documented and provable. He lost his law license because he lied to a federal judge about it.

The difference is, Cheney's DUI was when he was 22, thirty-seven years before he served as VP. Clinton's foibles happened all throughout his political career, including during two terms as President. How can you so blithely bash Cheney for his long-past bad judgment and give Clinton a pass on his continual bad judgment? That is known as intellectual dishonesty and cuts deeply into your credibility as an open-minded, critical thinker.
 
When Zod is president, all this will be irrelevant as everyone, including the terrorists, and the son of Jor-el will kneel...BEFORE ZOD!!!


LOL
 
Ok fossten,
I'll admit Clinton did everything he could to avoid the draft.He got a deferrment when he went to college. Dick Cheney got four deferrments. It is one way people got out of going to Vietnam.
I would argue that Cheney actively pursued every type of deferrment to avoid going but Clinton definitely got his "get out of going to Vietnam free" card through his family connections and studying in England.
The French spent 10 years in Vietnam and got out.
The US went in based on the phoney Gulf of Tomken incident.
I'd say Cheney, Clinton, Bush and many others showed good judgement avoiding serving in a pointless unwinnable war that divided the country, cost billions and 58,000 american casualties. After the US
left Vietnam the world order didn't change much which showed the reasons for going in were not worth the effort.
Though a good policy wonk Bill loved being a womanizer
modeling himself after John F Kennedy but having much poorer trailer park taste with maybe a few exceptions.
Ultimately this came back to bite him with the Lewinsky
scandal although lying about an affair with a woman not his wife hardly qualifies as a high crime or misdemeanor.
The graphic tawdriness of the allegations embarassed the country, appalled parents because they couldn't hide this from the kids and Bill's contention that oral sex was not sex because it's not mentioned in the bible(kind of an odd omission) was laughable and disengenuine at best.
Clinton did show bad judgement in how he handled the whole thing and part of the reason he's so active in Hillary's campaign is that he really has no legacy other than being a good manager for his watch and want's to be remembered for more than "I did not have sexual relations with that woman Miss Lewinsky" although that will never be forgotten.
Much of the country now is tired of Bush and the whole Iraq misadventure from Mission Accomplished on.
The big difference between Vietnam and Iraq is of that there is no draft. The troops are volunteers and the mercinaries are paid for plus the casualties are much lower.
McCain is not campaigning on ending the war anytime soon but even anti war people find his personality appealing which carries more weight than weather he follows pure conservative values.
He doesn't need the whole conservative base to win, just a part of it and Huckabee is becoming a spoiler like Perot or Nader, splitting the evangelicals keeping Romney from winning. I find this circumstance most delicious in that the base is offing itself.
Romney's personality comes off pretty flat in comparison to McCain and this will probably turn the nomination in his favor.
Super Tuesday may well wrap it up for McCain so the anticipation is great.
Quite a turn of events with McCain coming back from the dead where he was 6 months ago.
 
Thank you 04SCTLS for being intellectually honest

It has been a breath of fresh air from the Left. It may also explain why so few people from the Left survive their first week on this site.

I, myself, appreciate the banter you have provided. Thanks.
 
Ultimately this came back to bite him with the Lewinsky
scandal although lying about an affair with a woman not his wife hardly qualifies as a high crime or misdemeanor.
I appreciate your words, and I only have one correction to make concerning the above quoted statement.

Clinton did not just lie about having sex. He suborned perjury and attempted to use his Presidential authority to obstruct justice in a civil legal trial (the Paula Jones lawsuit) where he tried to get Monica to lie. He also lied to a federal court and was cited for contempt of court by a federal judge. He lied on camera while pointing his finger in the faces of the American people.

I get tired of hearing "Clinton was impeached for a bj" when it was far more serious than that.
 
I appreciate your words, and I only have one correction to make concerning the above quoted statement.

Clinton did not just lie about having sex. He suborned perjury and attempted to use his Presidential authority to obstruct justice in a civil legal trial (the Paula Jones lawsuit) where he tried to get Monica to lie. He also lied to a federal court and was cited for contempt of court by a federal judge. He lied on camera while pointing his finger in the faces of the American people.

I get tired of hearing "Clinton was impeached for a bj" when it was far more serious than that.

It should also be pointed out that Clinton did far more then Nixon ever did. Nixon lied to the American people, that's it. He never did anything that was even close to breaking the law. Clinton lied to the American people and commited purjury and obstruction of justice, as well as a few other things. Both Bill and Hillary are on record during Watergate as saying that Nixon should step down or be removed from office (Hillary was even involved in the legal research Congress had done on impeachment during Watergate). If you think it was right for Nixon to step down, and that if he hadn't, he should have been removed from office, then you must say the same about Clinton, or show a blatant double standard. the Clintons had an obvious double standard.
 
Much of the country now is tired of Bush and the whole Iraq misadventure from Mission Accomplished on.

Not so sure I would call Iraq a "misadventure", but generally, yes this is the perception. Dick Morris says that the country is itching for a Democrat president, and McCain is the only GOP canidate who has a chance at beating the Hillary.




He [McCain] doesn't need the whole conservative base to win, just a part of it and Huckabee is becoming a spoiler like Perot or Nader, splitting the evangelicals keeping Romney from winning.

In this instance, yeah McCain doesn't neccessarily need the conservative base to win the nomination because of Huckabee, in large part.

I find this circumstance most delicious in that the base is offing itself.

Don't forget that there is a civil war goin on in the democrat party between the Hillary supporters and the big "O" supporters. When it comes to issues, there isn't much difference between the two (unlike Romney and McCain), it's just a power struggle.
 
Yes Bill really f***d up and dug himself into a huge hole.

But it really can't be compared with Watergate.
The paranoia in the Nixon white house about the war protesters and the Democratic party was completely unjustified since he won a second term in a landslide.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal

Watergate is a general term for a series of political scandals during the presidency of Richard Nixon, that began with five men being arrested after breaking and entering into the Democratic National Committee headquarters at the Watergate hotel complex in Washington, D.C. on June 17, 1972. The scandal reached to the top levels of American government, and the attempted cover-up of the break-in would ultimately lead to Nixon's dramatic resignation on August 9, 1974.
Investigations conducted by the FBI, Senate Watergate Committee, House Judiciary Committee and the press revealed that this burglary was just one of many illegal activities authorized and carried out by Nixon's staff and those loyal to him. They also revealed the immense scope of crimes and abuses, which included campaign fraud, political espionage and sabotage, illegal break-ins, improper tax audits, illegal wiretapping on a massive scale, and a secret slush fund laundered in Mexico to pay those who conducted these operations.[1] This secret fund was also used as hush money to buy silence of the seven men who were indicted for the June 17 break-in.[2][3] President Nixon and his staff conspired to cover up the break-in as early as six days after it occurred. [4] After enduring two years of mounting evidence against the President and his staff, which included former staff members testifying against them in a Senate investigation, it was revealed that Nixon had a tape recording system in his offices and that he had recorded many conversations.[5][6] Undeniable evidence, spoken by Nixon and recorded on tape, revealed that he had obstructed justice and attempted to cover up the break-in.[4][7] This recorded conversation later became known as the Smoking Gun. After a series of court battles, the United States Supreme Court unanimously ruled that the President must hand over the tapes; he ultimately complied. With certainty of an impeachment in the House of Representatives and of a conviction in the Senate, Nixon resigned ten days later, becoming the only U.S. President to have resigned from office.

Shagdrum I don't know how you can dismiss this as nothing.
 
Yes Bill really f***d up and dug himself into a huge hole.

But it really can't be compared with Watergate.
The paranoia in the Nixon white house about the war protesters and the Democratic party was completely unjustified since he won a second term in a landslide.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal

Watergate is a general term for a series of political scandals during the presidency of Richard Nixon, that began with five men being arrested after breaking and entering into the Democratic National Committee headquarters at the Watergate hotel complex in Washington, D.C. on June 17, 1972. The scandal reached to the top levels of American government, and the attempted cover-up of the break-in would ultimately lead to Nixon's dramatic resignation on August 9, 1974.
Investigations conducted by the FBI, Senate Watergate Committee, House Judiciary Committee and the press revealed that this burglary was just one of many illegal activities authorized and carried out by Nixon's staff and those loyal to him. They also revealed the immense scope of crimes and abuses, which included campaign fraud, political espionage and sabotage, illegal break-ins, improper tax audits, illegal wiretapping on a massive scale, and a secret slush fund laundered in Mexico to pay those who conducted these operations.[1] This secret fund was also used as hush money to buy silence of the seven men who were indicted for the June 17 break-in.[2][3] President Nixon and his staff conspired to cover up the break-in as early as six days after it occurred. [4] After enduring two years of mounting evidence against the President and his staff, which included former staff members testifying against them in a Senate investigation, it was revealed that Nixon had a tape recording system in his offices and that he had recorded many conversations.[5][6] Undeniable evidence, spoken by Nixon and recorded on tape, revealed that he had obstructed justice and attempted to cover up the break-in.[4][7] This recorded conversation later became known as the Smoking Gun. After a series of court battles, the United States Supreme Court unanimously ruled that the President must hand over the tapes; he ultimately complied. With certainty of an impeachment in the House of Representatives and of a conviction in the Senate, Nixon resigned ten days later, becoming the only U.S. President to have resigned from office.

Shagdrum I don't know how you can dismiss this as nothing.

I didn't think I dismissed the Nixon thing, merly compared it to the Clinton impeachment. That is a very accurate comparison, because articles of impeachment were drawn up in both cases, in fact, a lot of our legal knowledge was collected in the buildup to the Nixon impeachment by Representative Peter Rodino’s House Judiciary Committee which issued a report called “Constitutional Grounds for Presidential Impeachment”. This report, dubbed the Rodino Report was the work of many lawyers, including Bernard Nussbaum (Clinton’s first White House counsel) and a young lawyer by the name of Hillary Rodham. This report spells out what was intended by the term “high crimes and misdemeanors” as well a expanding on what constitutes an impeachable offense.


There was a lot of hyperbole and distortion surrounding the Nixon case as well as the Clinton case. There were claims that Nixon was "shredding the constitution" which were gross exagerations of the constitutional question surrounding the case. To be clear and accurate; impeachment proceedings against Nixon were set in motion not by the underlying crime committed by persons known to the president but by Nixon's resistance to the investigation.



Yes, Nixon's paranoia led to the impeachment proceedings and his resignation, just like Clintons infidelities led to his impeachment. Both dug their own holes. However, the media was actively working against Nixon during Watergate (they had a grudge against him going back to Alger Hiss), while the media was actively defending and spinning for Clinton.

In order to say that the Nixon issue was bigger then the Clinton issue, you are comparing apples to oranges. You are looking at the issues surrounding the Nixon case (not directly tied to Nixon), while looking only at the charges against Clinton ( and not all of them, at that).



To be clear, Clinton knowingly did the following; committed a criminal felony in two areas; First he lied under oath, perjuring himself, and second, he suborned perjury from Monica Lewinsky and Linda Tripp. While breaking the law is obviously an impeachable offense, Clinton went further. By lying to the American public, he betrayed the public trust. By using lawyers paid for by the government to suborn perjury and solicit a job as payoff, Clinton abused the powers and influence of his office, as well as opening himself up to accusations of corruption.

Nixon knowingly did the following; lied to the American people; betraying the public trust. He also invoked executive privillage in a constitutionally questionable manner. It was constitutionally questionable at the time, not unconstitutional, as the media spun it by saying Nixon was "shredding the constitution". The Supreme Court later ruled on the issue and it them became unconstitutional, but that is hardly impeachable, as at the time of it being issued the constitutionality wasn't clear.

Basically, Nixon lied to the American people (for self-serving reasons), betraying their trust, which is clearly impeachable and warrants removal from office. Clinton did this, but went further, abusing his powers, purjuring himself and suborning purjury from others. If any one of these issues is bigger and more serious (at the presidential/impeachment level), it is Clinton.
 
Another interesting bit of trivia-

Hillary was actively involved in the effort to have Nixon impeached in 1974. She was a worked on the impeachment inquiry staff that worked to find historical precident to impeach Nixon.
 
I think Nixon's crimes were of a much more serious nature.
Clinton lied about personal affairs he had with women
and abused his power subborning perjury etc etc, but Nixon was subverting the political process and trying to sabotage his opponents.
One was merely a personal crime and the other was a crime against the state.
 
Nixon was subverting the political process and trying to sabotage his opponents.

Nixon wasn't involved in the sabotage on his political opponents, that is distortion. How was Nixon trying to subvert the political process?


One was merely a personal crime and the other was a crime against the state

Nixon never commited a crime, Clinton did. Clinton knowingly broke the law and abused his power to cover up and obstruct justice in a legal investigation (Paula Jones Lawsuit).

How is not breaking the law (in Nixon's case) worse then breaking the law (in Clinton's case)?
 
I think Nixon's crimes were of a much more serious nature.
Clinton lied about personal affairs he had with women
and abused his power subborning perjury etc etc, but Nixon was subverting the political process and trying to sabotage his opponents.
One was merely a personal crime and the other was a crime against the state.

Which is worse, political trickery OR subverting the justice system and orchestrating number of people to perjure themselves in an effort to deny a citizen her rights in civil court?
 

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