Govenment to cause exodus of financial talent.

Actually, it is fact. Congress and the White House have been actively working to gin up populist outrage directed at the investor class, and AIG is the current, and most obvious example. This allows the Democrats in government to grab more power (in the form of taxes) through illegal means, just like totalitarian governments throughout history have done.

That's probably one of the better conspiracy theories I've read about here. The witch hunt for AIG is simply a matter of the American public being hungry for blood and picking the nearest target exhibiting signs of corporate excess. It's a short-sighted and knee-jerk response fueled by anger and lacking rationality (as is the reactions of most Americans' to a lot of negative situations).
According to your theory, if I read it correctly, Congress and the Administration are behind the outrage here? As in, they cooked it up with the intention of directing public outrage at the investors, yes? And that is all a Grand Scheme by the Democrats to collect more taxes? I'm interested in seeing if you have evidence with which to support these claims, or if I misunderstand one of them, please correct me.

Surely, they were contractually obligated to pay those bonuses, but the bonuses were written into the contracts and not linked to any performance criteria. Fundamentally, that is the root of the outrage of the Public; that the bonuses were handed out despite the fact that the executives ran that company into the ground.
If I am a network administrator and our company's goal is less than four minutes of network downtime for the whole year, they may write a bonus in there for me if I achieve that goal. And, if I make it, I get my check; if not, I do not. What happened here is the equivalent of my network being down for eight months, I stole all of our hardware and sold it on eBay, and they still write me a bonus check. It's not fair to the shareholders.
 
And if shag talks about laws well I just say Jury Nullification (the American public) rules this one.
Let the chips fall where they may.

So, rule of law does not apply in this country. That is what you are saying. A "jury" has no place in determining weather a law is unconstitutional or not; only 9 justices have any say. Your analogy is inappropriate and false.

We were not established as a country of mob rule, but that is what is happening here. And politicians directing and instigating that disingenuous mob anger is even scarier. That is how totalitarian regimes (Nazi German, USSR, etc) cement their power.

Again; anyone who is more outraged over the legal actions of AIG and it's execs then they are about the illegal and reckless abuse of power by the government is an emotional dupe. They are effectively, a useful idiot and should be ashamed of themselves.
 
So, rule of law does not apply in this country.

Considering you've spend the last three months pointing out all the 'illegal' things the Administration and Congress are doing, I would have expected you to figure this out sooner.
 
Several thoughts---
First, there are very few situations where the contents of any individual's pocket is any business of mine. The subject bonuses are properly none of my concern, because none of that money came from me. Indeed, to the extent that I've been able to do a 'track', the extant difficulty began when an overwhelmingly liberal bureaucracy mandated loans to those without a provable way to pay it back. Those borrowers were required to get insurance to protect the transaction and things snowballed. Those whining about the bonuses are mostly jealous.
KS
 
That's probably one of the better conspiracy theories I've read about here. The witch hunt for AIG is simply a matter of the American public being hungry for blood and picking the nearest target exhibiting signs of corporate excess. It's a short-sighted and knee-jerk response fueled by anger and lacking rationality (as is the reactions of most Americans' to a lot of negative situations).
According to your theory, if I read it correctly, Congress and the Administration are behind the outrage here? As in, they cooked it up with the intention of directing public outrage at the investors, yes? And that is all a Grand Scheme by the Democrats to collect more taxes? I'm interested in seeing if you have evidence with which to support these claims, or if I misunderstand one of them, please correct me.

It has happened in every country where a totalitarian regime took power; it is how they misdirect from their power grab. Hitler used the Jews as a scapegoat the same way Obama is using the investor class. Scapegoating and setting up strawmen has been the norm since Obama took office and it was the norm when Clinton was in office as well.

I am not saying that it is "grand scheme" on the Democrats part (though I could see it being a part of Obama's agenda), but it is clearly opportunistic and another incremental power grab. Remember the DNC Paul Wellstone Memorial/Campaign Rally? This is the party that never wants to let a "good crisis go to waste"; they will capitalize on anything for purely political gain, even at the detriment of the country. If they can manufacture a crisis to push their agenda, they will, and that is what they are doing here.

We already know that the Democrats knew and specifically allowed for the bonuses in the bill. Now they are outraged?

It is disingenuous and dishonest of you to write this off as some "conspiracy theory" as you do, clearly without considering the merits of the argument. The DNC habitually uses the same (though more subtle and pleasant) propaganda techniques to manipulate, marginalize and/or intimidate various parts of the populace that the Communist/fascist parties in socialist/fascist countries have used to cement their power throughout history; cheifly, class warfare.

Surely, they were contractually obligated to pay those bonuses, but the bonuses were written into the contracts and not linked to any performance criteria. Fundamentally, that is the root of the outrage of the Public; that the bonuses were handed out despite the fact that the executives ran that company into the ground.

The bonuses were retention bonuses. You can say that the contracts were a dumb move, and you would probably be right, but that is their call to make, not that of the people or the politicians. If the government had not gotten involved, this company would have already been punished for poor business decisions like this in the free market, by collapsing.

If I am a network administrator and our company's goal is less than four minutes of network downtime for the whole year, they may write a bonus in there for me if I achieve that goal. And, if I make it, I get my check; if not, I do not. What happened here is the equivalent of my network being down for eight months, I stole all of our hardware and sold it on eBay, and they still write me a bonus check. It's not fair to the shareholders.

Your analogy is a false one. You compare what these guys did to criminal activity (stealing hardware). They did not do anything criminal.

If it is "not fair to the shareholders", then the shareholders can replace the CEO and CFO who are allowing for these retention bonus contracts. However, retention bonus contracts are the norm here. You are arguing out of ignorance in claiming that paying these bonuses was somehow wrong and/or unethical and unfair in any way. You don't know what is and isn't "par for the course" in this field of work. Might be some good information to find, instead of just scraping to rationalize your anger by any (irrational) means necessary.
 
Considering you've spend the last three months pointing out all the 'illegal' things the Administration and Congress are doing, I would have expected you to figure this out sooner.

What other "illegal" things have I claimed this Administration and/or Congress are doing? You are mischaracterizing me, again. :rolleyes:
 
Those whining about the bonuses are mostly jealous.

Exactly. all this mob anger is envy, nothing more. It should not be allowed to spill over into any form of revenge.
 
Again; anyone who is more outraged over the legal actions of AIG and it's execs then they are about the illegal and reckless abuse of power by the government is an emotional dupe. They are effectively, a useful idiot and should be ashamed of themselves.

Shag - what exactly are you talking about? What 'illegal' action has the government taken?

I want to make sure that this gets defined here.
 
Shag - what exactly are you talking about? What 'illegal' action has the government taken?

I want to make sure that this gets defined here.
Ever hear of a 'Bill of Attainder?'

If I have to choose between the fat cats in AIG getting their little bonuses or Nancy Pelosi, Barney Frank, and Obama being permitted to tax anyone they choose at 90% rate, I choose the fat cats in AIG instead of tyranny.
 
Bill of Attainder - yep - And has there been a formal assignation of guilt here Shag, oh, I mean Foss (I did ask Shag - are you representing him now Foss?). So what is illegal here - Shag/Foss? And, as stated on the Bonus thread - I don't believe that the tax is 'correct', it seems to create a lot more problems than it solves.

But, how is it illegal? Oh, I made that call...
 
Bill of Attainder - yep - And has there been a formal assignation of guilt here Shag, oh, I mean Foss (I did ask Shag - are you representing him now Foss?). So what is illegal here - Shag/Foss? And, as stated on the Bonus thread - I don't believe that the tax is 'correct', it seems to create a lot more problems than it solves.

But, how is it illegal? Oh, I made that call...

Where does there need to be a "formal" assignation of guilt? Where are you getting that?

Also, there is also the whole "ex post facto" law thing that Congress is violating, and possibly the Contract Clause.
 
15 of top 20 bonuses returned by AIG employees

posted at 6:55 pm on March 23, 2009 by Allahpundit

Did I say AIG? I meant AIU Holdings, of course.
All it took to get the money back was a national witch hunt replete with aborted plans to descend on AIG executives’ homes. Good work, Congress.
Attorney General Andrew M. Cuomo of New York announced late Monday afternoon that 9 of the top 10 bonus recipients at the American International Group had given back their bonuses.
He also said 15 of the top 20 bonus recipients in A.I.G.’s financial products division had given the money back, for a total that he estimated at about $30 million. “Those bonuses will be returned in full,” Mr. Cuomo said during a conference call with reporters…
Mr. Cuomo reiterated Monday that his office was sensitive to the security and privacy concerns of A.I.G. employees and that it would conduct a risk assessment before releasing name. More than 400 people received bonuses in A.I.G.’s financial products division.
Exit question one: The White House, to its credit, has been noncommittal when pressed on whether Obama will sign a bill taxing the bonuses. Does this give The One the political cover he needs to say no? Bear in mind that public support for recouping them is at 77 percent. Exit question two: Has the political damage already been done? Opposition to further Wall Street bailouts is dangerously close to majority levels…
Update: The One gets legal cover too from con-law expert Laurence Tribe:
Tribe says the main problem is that it’s hard to make the case that the law isn’t “punitive.”
“Its punitive intent is increasingly transparent,” Tribe says. “when you have Chuck Grassley calling on [executives] to commit suicide, and people responding to pitch fork sentiment, it’s hard to argue that this isn’t an attempt to punish an identifiable set of individuals who are the subject of understandable outrage.”

__________________________________________________________

If I have to choose between the fat cats in AIG getting their little bonuses or Nancy Pelosi, Barney Frank, and Obama being permitted to tax anyone they choose at 90% rate, I choose the fat cats in AIG instead of tyranny.

I don't think tyranny has arrived (yet)
This AIG bonuses just turned into a Perfect Storm.
After the initial glee of punitively confiscating the bonuses has passed turns out many top recipients have already returned them, diffusing the outrage.

When the dust settles I don't think this special legislation will pass.
People who got a few thousand dollars will likely get to keep that money.
Could say the public reaction and the threat of clawback legislation has been enough to "fix" the situation.
 
What other "illegal" things have I claimed this Administration and/or Congress are doing? You are mischaracterizing me, again. :rolleyes:

I'll start with this one, as apparently I misspoke and should have pointed out that you're accusing the administration is behaving unconstitutionally instead of illegaly. As far as I'm concerned, the two are close enough for my purposes.
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showpost.php?p=497510&postcount=15 - "And what we have now is an abuse of power by Congress. It is unconstitutional and therefore, criminal."
You go later on in the same quote (and repeatedly elsewhere) for my favorite line from you: "anyone who is more outraged over the legal actions of AIG and it's execs then they are about the illegal and reckless abuse of power by the government is an emotional dupe"
And a couple more.
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=51844 - "This is unconstitutional on so many levels!"
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showpost.php?p=479177&postcount=19 - "It is unconstitutional, unethical, and an abuse of power!"

All I'm doing is pointing out that you're complaining the government is doing things it's not supposed to be doing... do you really want to tell me you believe that they are legally and constitutionally allowed to do everything they are doing right now? I wouldn't go so far as to say that's a mischaractarization; simply that you aren't satisfied with the way things are going right now and you think they're overstepping their bounds.


I am not saying that it is "grand scheme" on the Democrats part (though I could see it being a part of Obama's agenda), ..... If they can manufacture a crisis to push their agenda, they will, and that is what they are doing here.

So which is it? I see two messages within this statement. If this is a manufactured crisis, prove it. If not, then call it what it is - a short sighted solution put in place by somebody attempting to assauge the public and remain popular.

We already know that the Democrats knew and specifically allowed for the bonuses in the bill. Now they are outraged?

Lol, the Dems aren't outraged, the Public is. The Dems are just opportunistic (as you have so eloquently explained) and are riding that public outrage for all it's worth.

The bonuses were retention bonuses. You can say that the contracts were a dumb move, and you would probably be right, but that is their call to make, not that of the people or the politicians. If the government had not gotten involved, this company would have already been punished for poor business decisions like this in the free market, by collapsing.

I am saying the contracts were a dumb move. It appears you and I are in agreement.

My analogy... let's take the criminal element out of it, and it still works. If I am hired to maintain the network and it is down 66% (that's just an arbitrary number of my selection used for the sake of argument) of the time, I don't deserve a bonus of any way shape or form. Yet if I still collect one... that is both unethical and wrong - it's not performance based pay, as what drives the free market; rather, when presented as a guaranteed sum regardless of job performance, it is simply entitlement and a handout and not conducive to the free market. In this case, the AIG execs ran that company into the ground and still collected bonuses. Tell me how that is ethical.
 
I'll start with this one, as apparently I misspoke and should have pointed out that you're accusing the administration is behaving unconstitutionally instead of illegaly. As far as I'm concerned, the two are close enough for my purposes.
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showpost.php?p=497510&postcount=15 - "And what we have now is an abuse of power by Congress. It is unconstitutional and therefore, criminal."
You go later on in the same quote (and repeatedly elsewhere) for my favorite line from you: "anyone who is more outraged over the legal actions of AIG and it's execs then they are about the illegal and reckless abuse of power by the government is an emotional dupe"
And a couple more.
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=51844 - "This is unconstitutional on so many levels!"
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showpost.php?p=479177&postcount=19 - "It is unconstitutional, unethical, and an abuse of power!"

All I'm doing is pointing out that you're complaining the government is doing things it's not supposed to be doing... do you really want to tell me you believe that they are legally and constitutionally allowed to do everything they are doing right now? I wouldn't go so far as to say that's a mischaractarization; simply that you aren't satisfied with the way things are going right now and you think they're overstepping their bounds.

The first two quotes you cite concern the same action by Congress; namely the AIG reactive legislation. That is effectively a bill of attainder and an ex post facto law, both of which the legislature is prevented from doing in in Article 1, Section 9 of the Constitution.

The last quote has to do with government mandates/regulations concerning oil consumption/exploration. That is mostly handled by the EPA, which is an unconstitutional agency. The Constitution, in Section 1, says, "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.". Look up the :non-delegation doctrine"; The legislature cannot delegate their legislative power to other agencies because that is not permitted in the text of the Constitution. The Supreme Court has declared as much, though they are inconsistent in enforcement of that, especially after the FDR "courtpacking" incident.

So you have been able to find two issues where I claim that a legislative action is unconstitutional. Not exactly a pattern, as you are implying. :rolleyes:

If this is a manufactured crisis, prove it.

The crisis only exists in the public mind. There is no actual event or condition that could in any way be considered a "crisis". It is simply populist anger that has been disingenuously ginned up by the left for political gain. The left were the ones that enshrined these bonuses into law in the first place and now they are faking indignation over the bonuses being paid and stoking populist anger.

The burden of proof has never logically been on those claiming a manufactured crisis; it is on those claiming a crisis to prove a crisis. Otherwise they are simply chicken-littles running around saying the sky is falling. Just because a lot of people bought into it through emotion doesn't give the crisis legitimacy. It only shows those people to be dupes.

If not, then call it what it is - a short sighted solution put in place by somebody attempting to assauge the public and remain popular.

It is much more then that. These politicians know what they are doing; an orchestrated power grab. This simply provided them with the opportunity that they capitalized on. Even if the bill never becomes law, it will help scapegoat the investor class and help them enact more regulations that take away freedom down the road. That is the point of class warfare.

In fact, we are seeing this with Obama calling for more powers when it comes to seizing firms. He wants to be able to seize, "non-bank financial companies, such as large insurers, investment firms and hedge funds."


Lol, the Dems aren't outraged, the Public is. The Dems are just opportunistic (as you have so eloquently explained) and are riding that public outrage for all it's worth.

The Dems are not genuinely outraged, but they are playing up outrage and fanning the flames of populist anger here.

My analogy... let's take the criminal element out of it, and it still works. If I am hired to maintain the network and it is down 66% (that's just an arbitrary number of my selection used for the sake of argument) of the time, I don't deserve a bonus of any way shape or form. Yet if I still collect one... that is both unethical and wrong - it's not performance based pay, as what drives the free market; rather, when presented as a guaranteed sum regardless of job performance, it is simply entitlement and a handout and not conducive to the free market. In this case, the AIG execs ran that company into the ground and still collected bonuses. Tell me how that is ethical.

You are still assuming that a bonus can only be paid due to performance otherwise it is unethical and wrong. You are missing the whole point of retention bonuses, and trying to rationalize through ignorance here. If retention bonuses exist and are common, then it shows that bonuses can be paid based on something other then performance and that the business community, by and large, doesn't view them as unethical and wrong.

Retention bonuses are not "anti-free market" as you are trying to claim, because it is part of the price of having these employees. In order for an employer to be competitive in recruiting in this specific market of employees, they have to offer certain perks, which would mean retention bonuses. Otherwise, the employee doesn't have enough incentive to stay throughout the year.

Look at it like this, these employees are the commodity and the business is the consumer. Now, for what the business needs, the supply of the commodity is very scarce, so they have to pay through the nose to get that commodity. However, that commodity is worth it to them, or they wouldn't pay for it. Retention bonuses are part of the necessary payment for that commodity.

Many of these businesses have caps on salaries. However, to be competitive in recruiting and hiring employees for certain key positions, they need to offer more money. That is where the retention bonuses come it.
 

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