Headers, throttle body and cams discussion

Yeah well TBW sucks...lol. And the switch could likely be tuned right out IF a tip in issue occurred. And cars operated without them for years. Again likely a MPG thing.


Anyways the progresive linkage is an additional linkage on the TB, not attached to the blade. It with a extra linkage/rod causing the progressive action. The extra lever appears to be just bolted to the side of the TB. So with a additional bracket likely L shaped sandwiched between the TB and spacer you could provide a strong/stable mount for the additional lever to maintain the progressive action and likely existing cables.


Like I said I Studied it pretty decent.


The gain for the trouble is small...but so was gearing this thing.


You still got your TB laying around?

Does the extra lever unbolt? Creating a pivot wouldn't be hard but again back to the gain for the trouble.
 
02LSE96LSC91SE84TC said:
Anyways the progresive linkage is an additional linkage on the TB, not attached to the blade. It with a extra linkage/rod causing the progressive action. The extra lever appears to be just bolted to the side of the TB. So with a additional bracket likely L shaped sandwiched between the TB and spacer you could provide a strong/stable mount for the additional lever to maintain the progressive action and likely existing cables.


Like I said I Studied it pretty decent.


The gain for the trouble is small...but so was gearing this thing.
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ok so after reading this back and fourth... this is what I got. Quick is saying the progressive tb setup is needed for smooth tuning on these cars and Jason is saying that while it may be there now, there are plenty of examples of cars that dont have it. Then he went on to say if you wanted it you could in theory make any tb a progressive one.

From what I know of it, and I havent gone into all that much yet. Both have valid points, and I would say that yes you can go to a different TB and the biggest gain would be the tb opening all the way up when you hammer on it. Switching it will remove the smoothness that makes these cars Lincolns though. Its kind of along the same lines as the ol 4.6 swap. yes it can be done, but it all depends on how much luxury you are willing to give up for sport. I wish I had more time, but I'm sure you guys will get into it some more.



Jason, should have gone bigger bro!
 
right you are. The progressive TB allows for the fine tuning of that TB, intake and engine combo. Will it work without it - of course, but you give up some of that fine tuning.

So I'm not sure what Jason was arguing about.....
 
Yikes hardly a arguement.


My point is being lost.


Quik switched to a non progressive style TB after/in the middle of his SC project. What he experienced may not happen in a near stock application. He used a rather large 85mm unit in place of the stock guessing 69mm (Quik you measured for me awhile back for me) with so many other changes and while under boost.

Going to 75mm in place of the stocker should have less drama for sure....if any in a near stock/N/A. application.

So to say you will have "tip in" issues if you loose the progressive TB in all applications I believe to not be positively true.

No one has done it.
 
jason - I agree with your statement that going smaller will have a less dramatic effect - which is what I said above -" my setup of non-progressive TB coupled with going to a 85mm TB exacerbates my transition issue" and that "so stumble in and stumble out is part of the 'charm'. " for my setup.

I never said anyone will have a 'tip-in' issue by going non-progressive - what I have said "The progressive TB allows for the fine tuning of that TB, intake and engine combo. Will it work without it - of course, but you give up some of that fine tuning."

Jeez.

want to talk about non-vented batteries? ;)
 
Quik LS said:
It's not a progressive TB - so stumble in and stumble out is part of the 'charm'.
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This statement led me down my path.:rolleyes:



Doesn't really clarify that is what you experienced with your specific combo. Just reads as a non progressive TB will lead to this....or thats how I read it.
 
I think someone lost me somewhere... I wasnt saying that tuning would be an issue, more the daily driver luxury feel. The car would "hit harder" more like a stang without the progressive tb.
 
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SPSully said:
I think someone lost me somewhere... I wasnt saying that tuning would be an issue, more the daily driver luxury feel. The car would "hit harder" more like a stang without the progressive tb.
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what will happen is that the throttle plate will open 'more' and 'faster' for the same amount of pedal input with anything less than 1/2 WOT. So, for the same gas pedal push your throttle will be opened more - so more air.

How noticable that will be and how much/fast the PCM can/cannot adjust the afr is hard to say. the larger the TB is from stock will make it more noticable.

To Jason's point, many people do it without too many ill side effects, and enthusists are usually more tolerant of a trade for a little more power for a little loss of refinement.
 
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Quik LS said:
what will happen is that the throttle plate will open 'more' and 'faster' for the same amount of pedal input with anything less than 1/2 WOT. So, for the same TPS reading your throttle will be opened more - so more air.
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???????????

You make it sound like the TPS is connected to the Gas Peddle. Its on the TB blade, thats why I don't get how the comp won't know what to do. I get the the progressive TB will come in slower for the comp to have more time to adjust.Resolution I guess you call it. But again I tend to think random peddle stabs would give similar affects.


Whatever.
 
right - sorry I just adding confusion now (I edited the post above) .... How's this - you have more movement of the gas pedal over smaller movements of the plate for the initial 1/3 of the plate opening. It allows your foot to bobble slightly without creating huge variations in plate.

it allows for a finer touch (resolution) on less than half pedal. with a non-progressive linkage - for the same pedal push you'll get more plate opening, more TPS, more go - but in a more 'jump' pver the same pedal movement.
 
Quik LS said:
right - sorry I just adding confusion now (I edited the post above) .... How's this - you have more movement of the gas pedal over smaller movements of the plate for the initial 1/3 of the plate opening. It allows your foot to bobble slightly without creating huge variations in plate.

it allows for a finer touch (resolution) on less than half pedal.
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I get it, you correct the post that was wrong....or came out wrong.
 
Quik LS said:
right - sorry I just adding confusion now (I edited the post above) .... How's this - you have more movement of the gas pedal over smaller movements of the plate for the initial 1/3 of the plate opening. It allows your foot to bobble slightly without creating huge variations in plate.

it allows for a finer touch (resolution) on less than half pedal. so for the same pedal push you'll get more plate opening, more TPS, more go - but in a more 'jump' pver the same pedal movement.
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Correct.
 
Alright just checked the connectors on my 05' 3.9 and they are a go with the 05' Mustang GT throttle body.. Pics to prove it will be attached.. Also I have another question about the Gen2 intake manifold, while I was snooping around trying to figure out what stuff was I realized that there is an aluminum runner at the end of the composite intake manifold that has the injector bungs, its maybe 2in long I got a pic of that too. What does this mean or have to do with this forum, quite possibly gonna be a lot easier to fab up a sheetmetal intake or something along those lines to go with the twinblade throttle body, that or my supercharger manifold.. Who knows.. Anywho so far this discussion is going great and Im really glad yall have had some input on this thread, I really didnt want to expeirement on my DD.. lol

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So let me see if I can sum up the gen 1 tb debate. 4.6 2v mustang tb can be swapped onto the first gen. Its increased size and lack of progressive setup adds to "kick" when dropping the hammer and sligt power gains. It may be noticeable may not be noticeable but WILL take away some of the luxury power curve by going straight from closed to wot. This mod will require tuning to get full gain from it, and it MAY be possible to fab the progressive controls onto the new larger tb.


Sound about right? I think i may head to a just yard and find a mustang tb... 4.6 2v mustangs are the 98-04 variety I believe. time to see what can come of this.
 
sounds right - then the questions are:
- will a 4.6 2v TB even fit (with some sort of adapter plate)?
- is there any gain without also increasing the air track in the intake tube, or the neck into the manifold?
- is there a loss or change in the torque curve?
 
02LSE96LSC91SE84TC said:
4.6 2v TBs look like a match. All but the above mentioned linkage. I bought a pair of gaskets to campare aned they are the same. Linkage shouldn't be a issue with some custom tweaking. With the small gain I would expect I haven't followed through with doing it. Still may though, a 75mm would be the one I would use.
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Looks like Jason has taken some preliminary measurements for the swap. It just a matter of getting the actual tb and seeing if it will fit. Assuming it does, then take her to the dyno for some testing and tuning. I would want my tuner present not just any hack whos never touched these cars so it would hard up here. I dont know any of the tuners up here.
 
SPSully said:
Looks like Jason has taken some preliminary measurements for the swap. It just a matter of getting the actual tb and seeing if it will fit. Assuming it does, then take her to the dyno for some testing and tuning. I would want my tuner present not just any hack whos never touched these cars so it would hard up here. I dont know any of the tuners up here.
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Got the gaskets right here. I bought them back in May of 07. 4.6 2V from Advance for $.68. 3.9 one was dealer only at $6.58. They are the same in size and bore. I believe the spacer will need just a slight touch on its radius at worse to have a smooth flow for the 6mm size increase.



Gain???? Again probably not worth it, never pursued it because of it. May still but no hurry.
 
yeah if I can find a TB at a junkyard for cheap money I'll look into the actual fitment and then tuning. I believe that it wont NEED a tune for it, but any real gains would come from tuning. I'm wondering if with the increased air intake if bigger injectors would be needed to properly tune the added fuel. I doubt it, but it is a possible issue.
 
SPSully said:
yeah if I can find a TB at a junkyard for cheap money I'll look into the actual fitment and then tuning. I believe that it wont NEED a tune for it, but any real gains would come from tuning. I'm wondering if with the increased air intake if bigger injectors would be needed to properly tune the added fuel. I doubt it, but it is a possible issue.
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I doubt tuning will be needed either or any upgrades for such a small increase in air.
 
yeah... but with any other upgrade, tuning adjustments could always be used. I'm currently calling around to see who has em and the pricing. :)
 
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