Home: No place for Bible study

shagdrum

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Home: No place for Bible study
County demands pastor spend thousands on 'Major Use' permit to host friends
By Drew Zahn

A San Diego
pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a county official and warned they will face escalating fines if they continue to hold Bible studies
in their home.

The couple, whose names are being withheld until a demand letter can be filed on their behalf, told their attorney a county government employee knocked on their door on Good Friday, asking a litany of questions about their Tuesday night Bible studies, which are attended by approximately 15 people.

"Do you have a regular weekly meeting
in your home? Do you sing? Do you say 'amen'?" the official reportedly asked. "Do you say, 'Praise the Lord'?"

The pastor's wife answered yes.

She says she was then told, however, that she must stop holding "religious assemblies" until she and her husband obtain a Major Use Permit from the county, a permit that often involves traffic and environmental studies, compliance with parking and sidewalk regulations and costs that top tens of thousands of dollars.

And if they fail to pay for the MUP, the county official reportedly warned, the couple will be charged escalating fines beginning at $100, then $200, $500, $1000, "and then it will get ugly."

Dean Broyles of the Western Center for Law & Policy, which has been retained to represent the couple, told WND the county's action not only violates religious land-use laws but also assaults both the First Amendment's freedom of assembly and freedom of religion.

"The First Amendment, in part, reads, 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,'" Broyles said. "And that's the key part: 'prohibiting the free exercise
.' We believe this is a substantial government burden on the free exercise of religion."

He continued, "If one's home is one's castle, certainly you would the think the free exercise of religion, of all places, could occur in the home."

Broyles confirmed the county official followed through on his threat. The pastor and his wife received a written warning ordering the couple to "cease/stop religious assembly on parcel or obtain a major use permit."

"The Western Center for Law and Policy is troubled by this draconian move to suppress home Bible studies," said the law center in a statement. "If the current trends in our nation continue, churches may be forced underground. If that happens, believers will once again be forced to meet in homes. If homes are already closed by the government to assembly and worship, where then will Christians meet?"

On a personal note, Broyles added, "I've been leading Bible studies in my home for 13 years in San Diego County, and I personally believe that home fellowship Bible studies are the past and future of the church. … If you look at China, the church grew from home Bible studies. I'm deeply concerned that if in the U.S. we are not able to meet in our homes and freely practice our religion, then we may be worse off than China."

Broyles also explained to WND that oppressive governments, such as communist China or Nazi Germany, worked to repress home fellowships, labeling them the "underground church" or "subversive groups," legally compelling Christians to meet only in sanctioned, government-controlled "official" churches.

"Therein lies my concern," Broyles said. "If people can't practice their religious beliefs in the privacy of their own homes with a few of their friends, that's an egregious First Amendment violation."

WND contacted a spokeswoman for San Diego County, who acknowledged the description of the incident seemed "bizarre," but who was unable to locate the details of the account. She simply could not provide comment yet, she said, until she could become familiar with the case.

Broyles said the WCLP is nearly ready to file a demand letter with the county to release the pastor and his wife from the requirement to obtain the expensive permit. If the county refuses, Broyles said, the WCLP will consider a lawsuit in federal court.

Broyles also told WND the pastor and his wife are continuing to hold the Bible study in their home.
 
I'm from the government and I'm here to help you!

There has to be more to this story.
Who complained and brought this couple to the government's attention?
Are these 15 people coming in 15 cars and loading up the street every week?
Maybe the neighbors find this to be an annoying nuisance that disturbs the peace and worry it will get worse.
Similar arguments have been used against swinger parties:D held on private property with demands for permits and threats of government action.
WND can be very bombastic and alarmist in it's articles.
If they're not disturbing the peace I think even religion hater Bill Maher:eek: would be ok with it.

On the other hand if it was a bunch of Muslims meeting every week for "prayer" .....
 
Yeah, I've got some Jehova Witnesses who do the same thing, but not every week, and it's annoying when they fill the streets with their cars. I can see where someone would file a complaint if it happened every week. Doesn't this guy have a church facility to use for his meetings?
 
There has to be more to this story.
Who complained and brought this couple to the government's attention?
Are these 15 people coming in 15 cars and loading up the street every week?
Maybe the neighbors find this to be an annoying nuisance that disturbs the peace and worry it will get worse.

That is not really all that relevant, as long as they are not blocking the streets. It is no worse then, say, someone throwing a party on you street, or having a big family get together. If there is a problem, people can be asked to move cars, citations to the individual car owners can be issued and cars can be towed. There shouldn't be any need for a permit here. At the very least, it is unnecessary and intrusive regulation.

Similar arguments have been used against swinger parties:D held on private property with demands for permits and threats of government action.

Religious assemblies are not comparable to swinger parties in this case because religious assemblies are specifically protected in the 1st Amendment.

Yeah, I've got some Jehova Witnesses who do the same thing, but not every week, and it's annoying when they fill the streets with their cars. I can see where someone would file a complaint if it happened every week. Doesn't this guy have a church facility to use for his meetings?

So...because it's annoying to some, they should have their first amendment right to free exercise of their religious views infringed upon?
 
Reason #4,672, 912 not to live in California.

Requiring a permit for public meetings is not new, but I find the extreme to which they need to go to acquire one rather overly stringent. In my county, we can simply notify the local PD 24 hours in advance and we are just fine, provided (as previously noted) we don't impede traffic, etc. But traffic and environmental studies? Sidewalk compliance? Seriously?
 
Being a bad neighbor has nothing to do with religious views, unless being a PIA is part of your religion. Blocking up the neighborhood once in a while for a party or something is one thing, doing it every week for years is something else.
Thse folks need to take their heads out of the ground and look around, they are not the only people in the world. Use some of that info your getting from reading the bible and be nicer to those around you.
 
Sieg-hiel you vill not have people over at your house fer der gatherings of any sort vithout goverment aproval , velcome to the land of the free .
 
Being a bad neighbor has nothing to do with religious views, unless being a PIA is part of your religion. Blocking up the neighborhood once in a while for a party or something is one thing, doing it every week for years is something else.
Thse folks need to take their heads out of the ground and look around, they are not the only people in the world. Use some of that info your getting from reading the bible and be nicer to those around you.

But we don't know if that is the case. The article doesn't give any indication that it is the case. All you have to go on is speculation, which you are assuming as fact and from that you are demonizing these people. That is rather telling...
 
Just how have I "demonized" these people?

It was stated they hold meetings Tuesday nights, their attorney has stated he's done the same thing for thirteen years

Isn't standing up for inconsiderate neighbors kind of like blaming the victim?
 
But we don't know if that is the case. The article doesn't give any indication that it is the case. All you have to go on is speculation, which you are assuming as fact and from that you are demonizing these people. That is rather telling...

There usually has to be a complaint for the government to send someone out.
This could be considered rather telling about WND's bias as they left out why these people were visited.
 
Just how have I "demonized" these people?

It was stated they hold meetings Tuesday nights, their attorney has stated he's done the same thing for thirteen years

Isn't standing up for inconsiderate neighbors kind of like blaming the victim?

You don't know that they were being in any way "inconsiderate neighbors". All you have to go on is speculation there. Yet, that is enough to label them (by implication) as "selfish" and "rude" or "inconsiderate".
 
There usually has to be a complaint for the government to send someone out.
This could be considered rather telling about WND's bias as they left out why these people were visited.

Maybe, maybe not. We don't know all the facts yet...
 
Yeah, I've got some Jehova Witnesses who do the same thing, but not every week, and it's annoying when they fill the streets with their cars. I can see where someone would file a complaint if it happened every week. Doesn't this guy have a church facility to use for his meetings?
I'm sure the county officials never show up for the local poker games or the Super Bowl parties. :rolleyes:
 
You don't know that they were being in any way "inconsiderate neighbors". All you have to go on is speculation there. Yet, that is enough to label them (by implication) as "selfish" and "rude" or "inconsiderate".

That seem to be a long way from being demonized
 
I'm sure the county officials never show up for the local poker games or the Super Bowl parties. :rolleyes:

Which don't occur all that often, or draw that many people.

To the best of my knowlege the Super Bowl is once a year and most poker games draw in three to five players. So the county officals don't get called because it's not an ongoing issue and when it is, it doesn't make the news.

I guess sinners being a nuisance isn't worth the attention that the "godly" being a nuisance are. They certainly don't get people standing up for them.
 
Which don't occur all that often, or draw that many people.

To the best of my knowlege the Super Bowl is once a year and most poker games draw in three to five players. So the county officals don't get called because it's not an ongoing issue and when it is, it doesn't make the news.

I guess sinners being a nuisance isn't worth the attention that the "godly" being a nuisance are. They certainly don't get people standing up for them.

You seem pretty hell bent on demonizing the Christians here....

Religious free exercise is specifically protected in the Constitution. Super Bowl parties and poker games ("sinners") are not. If this has to do with some sort of code having to do with parking, which these people are in violation of, and if they are not being singled out because of their status as Christians, then there might be a case here (due to court precedent in handling free exercise issues). Otherwise, there is absolutely no case here; The county is violating the 1st Amendment rights of these Christians and the law rightly will be overturned.
 
That seem to be a long way from being demonized

No, that is precisely what demonizing is.
Demonize: to characterize or conceive of as evil, cruel, inhuman, etc.​
 
Which don't occur all that often, or draw that many people.

To the best of my knowlege the Super Bowl is once a year and most poker games draw in three to five players. So the county officals don't get called because it's not an ongoing issue and when it is, it doesn't make the news.

I guess sinners being a nuisance isn't worth the attention that the "godly" being a nuisance are. They certainly don't get people standing up for them.
Nice usage of scare quotes around the word 'godly.' You're being sarcastic. Obviously you have a disdain for Christians which you aren't even trying to disguise. It's people like you that act as the public official did, persecuting Christians in clear violation of the First Amendment. People like you will support such violation of people's rights whenever you don't approve of their activities.

My poker game draws 15-20 people. You're just full of FAIL today.
 
My poker game draws 15-20 people.

I'm Shocked, SHOCKED! to find gambling going on in this establishment :cool:

Wouldn't you need like 3 or 4 tables for 15-20 people.
How many games is the "house" running? :D
 
I'm Shocked, SHOCKED! to find gambling going on in this establishment :cool:

Wouldn't you need like 3 or 4 tables for 15-20 people.
How many games is the "house" running? :D
We run 3 tables. It's a tournament, doofus. Ever played poker? :rolleyes:
 
We run 3 tables. It's a tournament, doofus. Ever played poker? :rolleyes:

I've played a few games in the past but there weren't enough people for
a tournament.
A little snarky :F this morning are we?
 
No, that is precisely what demonizing is.
Demonize: to characterize or conceive of as evil, cruel, inhuman, etc.​


None of which equates with being self centered, or careless of how your actions affect others. Rude is not evil, cruel, inhuman, etc. As a matter of fact being rude is very human.

I'm not going after Christians, I'd feel the same about any rude neighbors regardless of their race, religion, sexual orientation or whatever.

When people are so full of themselves they can only think others find them offensive is because of their beliefs, race, etc. they should be seeing a shrink. Being an ass knows no religious, racial, sexual, educational, economic, etc. boundries. So if the first thing that comes to mind when it's brought to your attention that your being an ass is "they're only saying that because I'm a _________________" then you really do need professional help.
 
None of which equates with being self centered, or careless of how your actions affect others. Rude is not evil, cruel, inhuman, etc. As a matter of fact being rude is very human.

"Rude" as well as being "self centered" can be considered "cruel" and "inhuman" depending on the circumstances and degree of the characteristic in question, which you seem to be implying is in excess in these people because you are noting it. Then there is also that "etc". Basically disparaging, especially without reason or through hyperbole would be considered demonizing.

When people are so full of themselves they can only think others find them offensive is because of their beliefs, race, etc. they should be seeing a shrink. Being an ass knows no religious, racial, sexual, educational, economic, etc. boundries. So if the first thing that comes to mind when it's brought to your attention that your being an ass is "they're only saying that because I'm a _________________" then you really do need professional help.

You seem to be assuming that these people are "full of themselves" and then drawing a lot of conclusions from that assumption.

You also seem to be overlooking the "why" as to people calling the person in question an "ass". That would be very relevant to determining if they "need professional help". What if it isn't simply "the first thing that comes to mind", but is something that can be logically inferred from their actions and the facts involved? That would mean that they are not being "full of themselves" and "in need of professional help", but simply being reasonable.

Basically, you seem to be assuming the worst about these people and then criticizing them harshly for it.
 

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