fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
You are being irritating because you continue to try to obscure the issue amidst minute details rather than engage the real subject. Yes, I get annoyed by trolls.
Home: No place for Bible study
- Thread starter shagdrum
- Start date
LOL, all the assuming I see going on is on your part. I'm being quite direct. And if you believe this is harsh I'm led to believe you've led an awful shelterd life.
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
You're directly criticizing people that you know nothing about. That's ignorant.
If there was any specific assuming you saw going on in my case then you could point it out, but you haven't. That suggests that you are simply trying to throw the accusation back at me without any basis; an action that is both dishonest and childishly petulant.
"Thinking that being direct is harsh" wouldn't mean I led a sheltered life; another illogical leap on your part. If you are going to critique someone, you damn well better have your ducks in a row and be able to logically back it up. However, all you are doing is speculating and making huge logical leaps in order to smear me in ways that are ultimately irrelevant to either my credibility or this discussion. All that childish and irrelevant smearing does is make you look belligerent and immature.
You have demonstrated a rather blatant double standard on your part here. You are assuming the worst about these Christian and then judging them harshly based off you assumptions! However, in other hypothetical instances involving non-religious actions you are much slower to start making assumptions, start making logical leaps and harshly judging. That, combined with your other actions on this forum shows an obvious prejudice against at least Christianity, and possibly religion in general. We already have one petty, irrational and belligerent flaming atheist on this forum, we don't need two.
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
Quite a few Christian haters on the political forum these days. Johnny would feel right at home.
No, it means I just don't find it worth the effort. The responses I've seen are so out of context it's hard to justify them.
If you actualy read what was posted, I haven't specified anyone but neighbors in general. You are the one assuming I am only making these statements because Christians are involved. As I've stated before, and has been ignored, I don't care what religion, race, economic strata, or hair color the folks in question are or have. I am however finding you to match your own discription fairly well.
I'm no more a flaming atheist than I am a flaming Christian, or a flaming Muslim, Buddist, Gnostic, Mormon or whatever flavor you choose. I don't carry any of their banners, nor do I fling mud at them. To me they all speak to the same desire in man.
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
Just because you misspelled it doesn't mean you didn't say it.
Your clear implication is that "thse folks" are being bad neighbors, not just bad neighbors in general.
Remember, you said you're being 'quite direct.' Don't try to weasel out of it now, like a coward. Be a proud hater. Man up.
That's correct, and you'll notice that I begain saying being a bad neighbor had nothing to do with religious views.
This is like being out on the play ground. Are the two of you some frustratred cyberbullies? I'm quite tired of playing word games with people who can't seem to understand what they read and so skew and distort what was said.
And so I'll spend the brief amount of time I have available for this sort of things on other threads, this one has become tedious and pointless.
live long and prosper
This is like being out on the play ground. Are the two of you some frustratred cyberbullies? I'm quite tired of playing word games with people who can't seem to understand what they read and so skew and distort what was said.
And so I'll spend the brief amount of time I have available for this sort of things on other threads, this one has become tedious and pointless.
live long and prosper
luxuryrules
Dedicated LVC Member
While they are definitely frustrated, I'm not so sure I would go so far as 'cyberbullies'. I think 'malcontents' is a better word.
And in case you haven't noticed, they never skew or distort anything. It's always Fox or one of use that's doing the skewing
Nice, a number of smears that are made as generalizations and vague enough so that they are not disprovable and there for very hard to defend against. When you make a criticism and construct it in such a way that it is not disprovable and therefore not able to defend against, that shows a cowardice on your part. Can't stand criticism can you?
In post #7, you assumed, without any basis other then speculation, that these people were being "bad neighbors". That assumption served as the basis for your harsh criticism when you said, "Thse folks need to take their heads out of the ground and look around, they are not the only people in the world. Use some of that info your getting from reading the bible and be nicer to those around you." You were demonizing them.
When Fossten gave a hypothetical of a Superbowl or poker game, you defended them are weren't making not quick to make any negative assumptions about them. Then try to imply that there is a dishonest double standard here, "I guess sinners being a nuisance isn't worth the attention that the "godly" being a nuisance are. They certainly don't get people standing up for them." In making this statement you were ignoring the fact that the exercise of religious freedom is given a privileged and specially protected place in the constitution; implying that the two instances should be held to the same standard, when Constitutionally, they are not. That type of implication goes against the double standard you have already established by willingly jumping to conclusions about the Christians that are not supported by the facts, but being unwilling to do the same when it comes to the Superbowl and poker game examples, instead specifically defending.
You then implied that these people were, "full of themselves" and that they were "being an ass" because they seem to think they were being singled out due to their religious beliefs. This is another assumption on your part, as there is not enough info to reach that conclusion from the article, and there is enough info to suggest that they might actually be singled out due to their beliefs.
That is two very negative conclusions about these people you were willing to assume without these people, but you were defensive of other, non-religious examples, and specifically not jumping to any negative conclusions about those people.
Combine these actions with others you have taken in this forum and it suggests that you have a bone to pick with Christians.
While they are definitely frustrated, I'm not so sure I would go so far as 'cyberbullies'. I think 'malcontents' is a better word.
And in case you haven't noticed, they never skew or distort anything. It's always Fox or one of use that's doing the skewing
More condescension to cover up ignorance it seems...
luxuryrules
Dedicated LVC Member
That's sarcasm shag. I don't mean for it to come across as condescending, I'm just speaking ironically.
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
That's not irony either. Sigh...
Couple: County Trying To Stop Home Bible Studies
SAN DIEGO -- A local pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a San Diego County official, who then threatened them with escalating fines if they continued to hold Bible studies in their home, 10News reported.
Attorney Dean Broyles of The Western Center For Law & Policy was shocked with what happened to the pastor and his wife.
Broyles said, "The county asked, 'Do you have a regular meeting in your home?' She said, 'Yes.' 'Do you say amen?' 'Yes.' 'Do you pray?' 'Yes.' 'Do you say praise the Lord?' 'Yes.'"
The county employee notified the couple that the small Bible study, with an average of 15 people attending, was in violation of County regulations, according to Broyles.
Broyles said a few days later the couple received a written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit" -- a process that could cost tens of thousands of dollars.
"For churches and religious assemblies there's big parking concerns, there's environmental impact concerns when you have hundreds or thousands of people gathering. But this is a different situation, and we believe that the application of the religious assembly principles to this Bible study is certainly misplaced," said Broyles.
News of the case has rapidly spread across Internet blogs and has spurred various reactions.
Broyles said his clients have asked to stay anonymous until they give the county a demand letter that states by enforcing this regulation the county is violating their First Amendment right to freely exercise their religion.
Broyles also said this case has broader implications.
"If the county thinks they can shut down groups of 10 or 15 Christians meeting in a home, what about people who meet regularly at home for poker night? What about people who meet for Tupperware parties? What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?" Broyles asked.
Broyles and his clients plan to give the County their demand letter this week.
If the County refuses to release the pastor and his wife from obtaining the permit, they will consider a lawsuit in federal court.
SAN DIEGO -- A local pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a San Diego County official, who then threatened them with escalating fines if they continued to hold Bible studies in their home, 10News reported.
Attorney Dean Broyles of The Western Center For Law & Policy was shocked with what happened to the pastor and his wife.
Broyles said, "The county asked, 'Do you have a regular meeting in your home?' She said, 'Yes.' 'Do you say amen?' 'Yes.' 'Do you pray?' 'Yes.' 'Do you say praise the Lord?' 'Yes.'"
The county employee notified the couple that the small Bible study, with an average of 15 people attending, was in violation of County regulations, according to Broyles.
Broyles said a few days later the couple received a written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit" -- a process that could cost tens of thousands of dollars.
"For churches and religious assemblies there's big parking concerns, there's environmental impact concerns when you have hundreds or thousands of people gathering. But this is a different situation, and we believe that the application of the religious assembly principles to this Bible study is certainly misplaced," said Broyles.
News of the case has rapidly spread across Internet blogs and has spurred various reactions.
Broyles said his clients have asked to stay anonymous until they give the county a demand letter that states by enforcing this regulation the county is violating their First Amendment right to freely exercise their religion.
Broyles also said this case has broader implications.
"If the county thinks they can shut down groups of 10 or 15 Christians meeting in a home, what about people who meet regularly at home for poker night? What about people who meet for Tupperware parties? What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?" Broyles asked.
Broyles and his clients plan to give the County their demand letter this week.
If the County refuses to release the pastor and his wife from obtaining the permit, they will consider a lawsuit in federal court.
County won't force permit on Bible study leaders
Code officer formally warned couple over meetings at home
By Helen Gao, Union-Tribune Staff Writer, Janine Zúñiga, Union-Tribune Staff Writer
Sweeping issues of religious freedom and governmental regulation are swirling around Pastor David Jones' house in rural Bonita, attracting attention from as far away as China and New Zealand.
He says it all started with $220 in car damage.
Jones and his wife, Mary, hold a weekly Bible study at their home that sometimes attracts more than 20 people, with occasional parking issues. Once, a car belonging to a neighbor's visitor got dinged.
David Jones paid for the damage, but he thinks the incident spurred a complaint to the county.
A code enforcement officer warned the couple in April for holding a “religious assembly” without a permit. The action became an international incident when it was reported last week on the Web site worldnetdaily.com.
The Joneses assert that the county's action violates their rights under the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees freedom of religion. Their story was picked up by conservative Web sites for days, then made it to CNN yesterday.
Barraged by hundreds of complaints, San Diego County officials backed down yesterday from their enforcement.
“No one respects the right to free religious expression more than I do, and no one would find the infringement of such rights more abhorrent,” county Chief Administrative Officer Walt Ekard said in a statement.
Chandra Wallar, the county's general manager of land use and environment, said the county has re-examined the situation and decided that the Joneses don't need a permit after all.
Religious assembly, under the county land-use code, is defined as “religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples, and churches.”
Wallar said that definition, which doesn't spell out specific thresholds on when a religious gathering becomes a religious assembly, probably needs to be clarified and that more training may be warranted for code enforcement officers.
She said the county was not targeting the Joneses because they were exercising their religion, but rather it was trying to address parking and traffic issues.
“We've advised the pastor he has the authority to continue to hold his meetings just as he's held them,” Wallar said. “My hope is we will be able to resolve the traffic concerns.”
Wallar said the person who filed the complaint alleged that Bible study was drawing 30 to 40 cars.
In an interview yesterday, the pastor said at most, there are six additional cars on Bible study day. Jones, pastor of South Bay Community Church in National City, said he has visitors park in a lot that he owns beside his house.
“We're in trouble if they are going to go with a parking issue, because that means that thousands of people in Bible study groups could be cited for a parking violation,” Jones said.
“What about people who gather to play Texas Hold 'Em, Mommy and Me, 'Monday Night Football,' Boy Scouts, Alcoholics Anonymous? Everyone has a right as a homeowner to the quiet enjoyment of their property. They're trying to take that away. We're not going to let it go.”
Constitutional law scholars say that the county can impose land-use restrictions on religious gatherings, as long as they are not unreasonable or discriminatory.
“If people can get together weekly to read books or discuss books or play bridge, if those are OK, there would be a constitutional issue involved in singling out, among other things, religion as a forbidden thing,” said Larry Alexander, constitutional law professor at the University of San Diego.
Dean Broyles, president of the Western Center for Law & Policy, a nonprofit organization in Escondido that supports religious liberty, is representing the Joneses. He said traffic issues were not raised when the code enforcement officer first visited the Joneses in response to the complaint. The warning itself does not mention traffic or parking problems.
“Even though the county is saying it's about traffic and parking, it's a fake issue. It's a fabricated issue,” Broyles said.
According to Broyles, the code enforcement officer asked a series of pointed questions during her visit with the Joneses – questions such as, “Do you sing?” “Do you say 'amen?' ” “Do you say 'praise the Lord?' ”
Wallar said the county is investigating what questions were asked and in what context. She said a code enforcement officer does have to ask questions about how a place is being used to determine what land-use codes are applicable.
“Our county simply does not tolerate our employee straying outside what the appropriate questions are,” Wallar said.
Ekard, the top county executive, emphasized in his statement that he would get to the bottom of the matter.
“Should I find that county staff at any level acted in a heavy-handed way; did anything inappropriate under the circumstances; or that a change or revision to our processes and procedures is warranted, I will take appropriate action immediately,” he said.
As of late yesterday, county Supervisor Greg Cox's office – which represents the area – reported having received 400 e-mail messages about the Joneses'situation. Wallar said her department has received hundreds of e-mails and phone calls as well.
Broyles said he's been fielding media calls nonstop.
“It's been hard to do anything else but to handle the phone calls and media interviews,” he said. “It's been crazy, back to back to back to back.”
Code officer formally warned couple over meetings at home
By Helen Gao, Union-Tribune Staff Writer, Janine Zúñiga, Union-Tribune Staff Writer
Sweeping issues of religious freedom and governmental regulation are swirling around Pastor David Jones' house in rural Bonita, attracting attention from as far away as China and New Zealand.
He says it all started with $220 in car damage.
Jones and his wife, Mary, hold a weekly Bible study at their home that sometimes attracts more than 20 people, with occasional parking issues. Once, a car belonging to a neighbor's visitor got dinged.
David Jones paid for the damage, but he thinks the incident spurred a complaint to the county.
A code enforcement officer warned the couple in April for holding a “religious assembly” without a permit. The action became an international incident when it was reported last week on the Web site worldnetdaily.com.
The Joneses assert that the county's action violates their rights under the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees freedom of religion. Their story was picked up by conservative Web sites for days, then made it to CNN yesterday.
Barraged by hundreds of complaints, San Diego County officials backed down yesterday from their enforcement.
“No one respects the right to free religious expression more than I do, and no one would find the infringement of such rights more abhorrent,” county Chief Administrative Officer Walt Ekard said in a statement.
Chandra Wallar, the county's general manager of land use and environment, said the county has re-examined the situation and decided that the Joneses don't need a permit after all.
Religious assembly, under the county land-use code, is defined as “religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples, and churches.”
Wallar said that definition, which doesn't spell out specific thresholds on when a religious gathering becomes a religious assembly, probably needs to be clarified and that more training may be warranted for code enforcement officers.
She said the county was not targeting the Joneses because they were exercising their religion, but rather it was trying to address parking and traffic issues.
“We've advised the pastor he has the authority to continue to hold his meetings just as he's held them,” Wallar said. “My hope is we will be able to resolve the traffic concerns.”
Wallar said the person who filed the complaint alleged that Bible study was drawing 30 to 40 cars.
In an interview yesterday, the pastor said at most, there are six additional cars on Bible study day. Jones, pastor of South Bay Community Church in National City, said he has visitors park in a lot that he owns beside his house.
“We're in trouble if they are going to go with a parking issue, because that means that thousands of people in Bible study groups could be cited for a parking violation,” Jones said.
“What about people who gather to play Texas Hold 'Em, Mommy and Me, 'Monday Night Football,' Boy Scouts, Alcoholics Anonymous? Everyone has a right as a homeowner to the quiet enjoyment of their property. They're trying to take that away. We're not going to let it go.”
Constitutional law scholars say that the county can impose land-use restrictions on religious gatherings, as long as they are not unreasonable or discriminatory.
“If people can get together weekly to read books or discuss books or play bridge, if those are OK, there would be a constitutional issue involved in singling out, among other things, religion as a forbidden thing,” said Larry Alexander, constitutional law professor at the University of San Diego.
Dean Broyles, president of the Western Center for Law & Policy, a nonprofit organization in Escondido that supports religious liberty, is representing the Joneses. He said traffic issues were not raised when the code enforcement officer first visited the Joneses in response to the complaint. The warning itself does not mention traffic or parking problems.
“Even though the county is saying it's about traffic and parking, it's a fake issue. It's a fabricated issue,” Broyles said.
According to Broyles, the code enforcement officer asked a series of pointed questions during her visit with the Joneses – questions such as, “Do you sing?” “Do you say 'amen?' ” “Do you say 'praise the Lord?' ”
Wallar said the county is investigating what questions were asked and in what context. She said a code enforcement officer does have to ask questions about how a place is being used to determine what land-use codes are applicable.
“Our county simply does not tolerate our employee straying outside what the appropriate questions are,” Wallar said.
Ekard, the top county executive, emphasized in his statement that he would get to the bottom of the matter.
“Should I find that county staff at any level acted in a heavy-handed way; did anything inappropriate under the circumstances; or that a change or revision to our processes and procedures is warranted, I will take appropriate action immediately,” he said.
As of late yesterday, county Supervisor Greg Cox's office – which represents the area – reported having received 400 e-mail messages about the Joneses'situation. Wallar said her department has received hundreds of e-mails and phone calls as well.
Broyles said he's been fielding media calls nonstop.
“It's been hard to do anything else but to handle the phone calls and media interviews,” he said. “It's been crazy, back to back to back to back.”
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
So is the code enforcement officer going to get spanked, or is he going to be promoted?