How Ayn Rand Became an American Icon

[fossten]

Millions of people are oppressed by capitalism.

That's not the same as what I asked. You're wiggling. And you're wrong also. Millions are NOT oppressed by capitalism. Millions have been freed by capitalism. Where would Europe be if not for this country?

I am not saying it is wrong - but it is a fact. They might not be thrown into prison,

That's what I asked. Thank you for answering. No. They haven't.

but since they can't get medical care, they have a 'death sentence' imposed on them anyway.

Care to give a specific example? There isn't a person in THIS country who CAN'T get medical care.

Or if you don't have the means to get a good lawyer - you often become a victim of the system, thrown into prison, because you can't buy a defense.

Bad example of capitalism. Try again.

So - you do keep a woman - good to know Foss...

[Note to moderator - she has now continued to bring up my personal life, so hers is fair game now.]

Yes, I'm able to maintain a relationship. I don't sleep around, which is something you've obliquely bragged about in the past.

Ah - I was being a good capitalist, and playing with big guns last week - sorry I had to skim. But, you didn't debunk anything - in comparable dollars the old Bel Air costs the same as the new Malibu. You tried to muddle up the discussion with some sort of inflationary crap, but it doesn't matter - the cars have an equal 'value' within the market at the time.

Calling my argument crap isn't the same as refuting it. Proof by assertion much? Tsk, tsk, fox, that's sloppy, even for you. I can do the same thing: Everything you've said in this thread is absolute excrement. There!

You fail, as does your bogus example. If you don't have time to respond cogently to my posts, then wait until you do. Otherwise you're just wasting my time. Buh-bye now.

 

[04SCTLS]

Ah - I was being a good capitalist, and playing with big guns last week - sorry I had to skim. But, you didn't debunk anything - in comparable dollars the old Bel Air costs the same as the new Malibu. You tried to muddle up the discussion with some sort of inflationary crap, but it doesn't matter - the cars have an equal 'value' within the market at the time.

Actually the 1959 dollar was a lot stonger than the 2005 dollar for which there are stats.

Comparative Value of the U.S. Dollar (Approximate)

http://mykindred.com/cloud/TX/Documents/dollar/

With the value set at 1.00 in 1959

year CPI Inflation
1959 87.30 $1.000 0.8

2005 584.90 $0.149 3.4


The current dollar is only worth .15 compared to the 59 dollar
so foss your criticism is still not valid.

 

[foxpaws]

Care to give a specific example? There isn't a person in THIS country who CAN'T get medical care.

Certainly you are kidding

Nearly 45,000 people die in the United States each year -- one every 12 minutes -- in large part because they lack health insurance and can not get good care, Harvard Medical School researchers found.

Overall, researchers said American adults age 64 and younger who lack health insurance have a 40 percent higher risk of death than those who have coverage.​

Bad example of capitalism. Try again.

Again - really - the fact that the justice system works better for those with the funds to hire good attorneys, then for those who can't is a bad example - it is a great example of capitalism at work. You get what you pay for...

Calling my argument crap isn't the same as refuting it. Proof by assertion much? You fail, as does your bogus example. If you don't have time to respond cogently to my posts, then wait until you do. Otherwise you're just wasting my time. Buh-bye now.

So, if we were to barter for those cars - it would take the same number of loaves of bread to acquire each - it is not a bogus example... their 'value' in the marketplace is exactly the same. You obviously don't grasp the basic idea of 'purchasing power'...

So, back to the quote from Fountainhead - do you agree that "This country, was not based on selfless service, sacrifice, renunciation or any precept of altruism." This is a central concept in Rand's philosophy...

 

[fossten]

Certainly you are kidding

Nearly 45,000 people die in the United States each year -- one every 12 minutes -- in large part because they lack health insurance and can not get good care, Harvard Medical School researchers found.

Overall, researchers said American adults age 64 and younger who lack health insurance have a 40 percent higher risk of death than those who have coverage.​

That's total BS (using your technique). It's based on faulty numbers in the first place.

And even if it were true, 45,000 is a far cry from millions. You still fail.

Again - really - the fact that the justice system works better for those with the funds to hire good attorneys, then for those who can't is a bad example - it is a great example of capitalism at work. You get what you pay for...

Again, you claimed that MILLIONS of people are KILLED by capitalism every year. You have FAILED to substantiate this claim. Shall I just chalk you up to making feral claims a la Rosie O'Donnell?

So, if we were to barter for those cars - it would take the same number of loaves of bread to acquire each - it is not a bogus example... their 'value' in the marketplace is exactly the same. You obviously don't grasp the basic idea of 'purchasing power'...

That depends...are we talking loaves of bread made in the 50s or are we talking Sara Lee? Sliced or not?

Obviously you don't grasp the basic idea of inflation, devaluation, or Austrian economics.

So, back to the quote from Fountainhead - do you agree that self sacrifice had no impact on the creation or continuation of this country, Foss?

I'm not responding to your carefully worded 'do you still beat your wife' type straw men.

And you haven't responded to my point that this country, the closest thing to capitalism that has existed in modern times, has freed millions of people worldwide.

So fox, back to Atlas Shrugged, do you agree with the following statement?

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

 

[foxpaws]

That's total BS (using your technique). And even if it were true, 45,000 is a far cry from millions. You still fail.

Again, you claimed that MILLIONS of people are KILLED by capitalism every year. You have FAILED to substantiate this claim. Shall I just chalk you up to making feral claims a la Rosie O'Donnell?

Ah, Foss - millions are oppressed by capitalism... not killed (you might want to take your own advice, and really read my posts, not once have I claimed that millions have been killed by capitalism) - and over time, 45,000 a year does add up Foss - 22 years equals a million... However, once again, I very distinctly used oppressed, not killed. Just because I can find examples where people have been killed by capitalism is just a bonus...

That depends...are we talking loaves of bread made in the 50s or are we talking Sara Lee? Sliced or not?

Obviously you don't grasp the basic idea of inflation, devaluation, or Austrian economics.

Ah, you do understand purchasing power - you are just unwilling to admit your mistake...

Average cost of a loaf of bread in 1959 - $.20
Average cost of a loaf of bread in 2009 - $2.79

And I do very much understand Austrian economics - it appears you are starting to grasp real economics - even more important Foss...

I'm not responding to your carefully worded 'do you still beat your wife' type straw men.

And you haven't responded to my point that this country, the closest thing to capitalism that has existed in modern times, has freed millions of people worldwide.

So, back to the quote from Fountainhead - do you agree that "This country, was not based on selfless service, sacrifice, renunciation or any precept of altruism." This is a central concept in Rand's philosophy...

When you answer that - and show that you really understand the ideals and thrust of Objectivism, I will be more than happy to answer your question - I asked first...

[Note to moderator - she has now continued to bring up my personal life, so hers is fair game now.]

Just as you brought up my personal relationships first... you brought in the personal aspect into this conversation Foss - I don't mind, it certainly reflects you...

No I do not agree with Marx's "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

 

[fossten]

Ah, Foss - millions are oppressed by capitalism... not killed (you might want to take your own advice, and really read my posts, not once have I claimed that millions have been killed by capitalism) - and over time, 45,000 a year does add up Foss - 22 years equals a million...

EPIC FAIL. You're still clinging to a flawed study. Next.

Before you mock my 'mistakes' vis-a-vis economics, you might want to examine your own glass house of BASIC MATH.

And Rosie, you still haven't substantiated your claim.

 

[shagdrum]

Once again, I am not arguing that economic freedom is a natural right, it is...

...yet you characterize it as something to be "achieved". Lest you forget, you wrote this line in post #46 of this thread:

How many people truly achieve economic freedom through capitalism?​

How can you "achieve" a natural right? Would FDR's Economic Bill of Rights be an example of that in your view?

I am trying to find out if you believe that unfettered capitalism is the only road to that natural right.

Anarcho-capitalism is NOT a "road to natural rights".

 

[fossten]

Ah, Foss - millions are oppressed by capitalism... not killed (you might want to take your own advice, and really read my posts, not once have I claimed that millions have been killed by capitalism)

You might want to take your own advice, since you deliberately changed the wording of my challenge.

Quote:
Please back this up with some real evidence, notably people being thrown into prisons and murdered by the millions by capitalism. Thanks.

Millions of people are oppressed by capitalism. I am not saying it is wrong - but it is a fact. They might not be thrown into prison, but since they can't get medical care, they have a 'death sentence' imposed on them anyway. Or if you don't have the means to get a good lawyer - you often become a victim of the system, thrown into prison, because you can't buy a defense.

Since you said 'death sentence', I'm assuming you're trying to conform to my challenge by claiming that capitalism murders millions.

Yes or no?

 

[fossten]

Quote:
Again - really - the fact that the justice system works better for those with the funds to hire good attorneys, then for those who can't is a bad example - it is a great example of capitalism at work. You get what you pay for...

So, fox, you don't think much of government provided legal counsel?

 

[foxpaws]

You might want to take your own advice, since you deliberately changed the wording of my challenge.

Since you said 'death sentence', I'm assuming you're trying to conform to my challenge by claiming that capitalism murders millions.

Yes or no?

I am using various forms of 'oppression' - death is certainly one, along with my example that the idea that you can purchase a more 'fair' justice system is another.

You were the one that tried to get me to say 'murder.' I saw what you were doing and continued with my claim that capitalism oppresses millions.

Foss - you tried to back me into the same wife/beat scenario - I knew it - and I never went there anyway - Capitalism certainly has its fair share of deaths at its doorstep - but, once again, I was using oppression... you were the one that introduced murder, not me.

 

[foxpaws]

So, fox, you don't think much of government provided legal counsel?

As a whole - nope - do you?

 

[fossten]

No I do not agree with Marx's "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

Do you agree with the following statement?

"A cow cannot survive solely by feeding on its own udder."

 

[foxpaws]

EPIC FAIL. You're still clinging to a flawed study. Next.

Before you mock my 'mistakes' vis-a-vis economics, you might want to examine your own glass house of BASIC MATH.

And Rosie, you still haven't substantiated your claim.

I have substantiated it, and you might want to read the 'flawed' study Foss - certainly impossible in the amount of time it took you to reply to this...

 

[foxpaws]

Do you agree with the following statement?

"A cow cannot survive solely by feeding on its own udder."

So, back to the quote from Fountainhead - do you agree that "This country, was not based on selfless service, sacrifice, renunciation or any precept of altruism." This is a central concept in Rand's philosophy...

 

[shagdrum]

millions are oppressed by capitalism

Here are a few definitions of "oppressed":

op·press:

1. To keep down by severe and unjust use of force or authority
2. To weigh heavily on
3. To overwhelm or crush

Oppression is the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner. It can also be defined as an act or instance of oppressing, the state of being oppressed, and the feeling of being heavily burdened, mentally or physically, by troubles, adverse conditions, and anxiety.​

Considering there is no "authority" in capitalism, you have to be talking about capitalism somehow heavily burdening people, overwhelming them, etc.

So, specifically how does capitalism oppress "millions"? What specific burdens are placed on people that overwhelm and crush them?

 

[fossten]

As a whole - nope - do you?

So, do you believe all people should have access to the best legal representation, or do you believe that we should all be subjected to the same representation across the board?

 

[fossten]

So, back to the quote from Fountainhead - do you agree that "This country, was not based on selfless service, sacrifice, renunciation or any precept of altruism." This is a central concept in Rand's philosophy...

So, do you believe that a rising tide lifts all boats?

 

[foxpaws]

How can you "achieve" a natural right? Would FDR's Economic Bill of Rights be an example of that in your view?

I actually don't know a great deal about FDRs Economic Bill of Rights, the whys and hows it came to be... I really am not the one to discuss this with-maybe someone else here is more familiar with it than I am. I have read them, and no, I don't agree with all of them. A couple of them I think are valid - the expectation of companies to be able to compete free from monopolies - the idea that an education can be available to all.

Once again shag - I really don't know a lot about this.

Anarcho-capitalism is NOT a "road to natural rights".

Why? Is it because it is unrealistic in real world applications, or philosophically it is flawed?

 

[foxpaws]

So, do you believe that a rising tide lifts all boats?

So, back to the quote from Fountainhead - do you agree that "This country, was not based on selfless service, sacrifice, renunciation or any precept of altruism." This is a central concept in Rand's philosophy...

 

[fossten]

So, to sum up.

Foxpaws cannot substantiate her claim that capitalism has killed or imprisoned millions of people worldwide.

She cites a flawed study with phony numbers and won't respond to a clear debunkation of said study.

Fox also denies claiming that capitalism kills millions of people, even though her own words clearly show an attempt to conflate oppression with killing and imprisoning. She cannot substantiate either claim, and when this is brought to her attention, she ignores it.

She asks nonsensical 'gotcha' questions regarding quotes from books that her targets haven't read, and then berates them for not having read them.

She cherrypicks what posts she responds to, but whines when somebody doesn't respond to her posts.

I think we're about done here.

 

[shagdrum]

I actually don't know a great deal about FDRs Economic Bill of Rights...

You still need to answer the first question; how can you "achieve" natural rights? Specifically, how can you "achieve" economic freedom?

Why? Is it because it is unrealistic in real world applications, or philosophically it is flawed?

Anarcho-capitalism is inconsistent with the understanding of human nature it subscribes to.

You need to answer my last question from post #65:

Here are a few definitions of "oppressed":

op·press:

1. To keep down by severe and unjust use of force or authority
2. To weigh heavily on
3. To overwhelm or crush

Oppression is the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner. It can also be defined as an act or instance of oppressing, the state of being oppressed, and the feeling of being heavily burdened, mentally or physically, by troubles, adverse conditions, and anxiety.​

Considering there is no "authority" in capitalism with the power of force able to "oppress millions", you have to be talking about capitalism somehow heavily burdening people, overwhelming them, etc.

So, specifically how does capitalism "oppress millions"? What specific burdens are placed on people that overwhelm and crush them?

 

[foxpaws]

So, to sum up.

Foxpaws cannot substantiate her claim that capitalism has killed or imprisoned millions of people worldwide.

She cites a flawed study with phony numbers and won't respond to a clear debunkation of said study.

NewsMax - are you kidding - I might as well use Daily Kos as 'debunkation'. That right wing rag is in no way creditable to use a critique of the study that I posted from Harvard. Any source that buys up thousands of copies of Palin's book - to rifle up the pre pub numbers, and then is touting... Newsmax proudly announces it has never so aggressively marketed a book as Sarah Palin’s memoir isn't really on the 'honest' side of the fence is it?

And once again - I have never claimed that capitalism has killed or imprisoned millions of people worldwide, I have claimed 'oppressed'.

And Shag, an economic system can oppress a people - don't you think? Just as effectively as a government.

Fox also denies claiming that capitalism kills millions of people, even though her own words clearly show an attempt to conflate oppression with killing and imprisoning. She cannot substantiate either claim, and when this is brought to her attention, she ignores it.

Killing is a form of oppression... Capitalism has oppressed millions - the fact that access to good medical care for all is oppressed in capitalism, and that oppression leads to death, is just one example.

She asks nonsensical 'gotcha' questions regarding quotes from books that her targets haven't read, and then berates them for not having read them.

What do you exactly think I haven't read foss... Do you want a quick synopsis of Fountainhead - or maybe Road to Serfdom - but that might not do you any good - since I know you haven't read Fountainhead, and I wonder if you have read Hayek's piece.

She cherrypicks what posts she responds to, but whines when somebody doesn't respond to her posts.

So speaks the lord of cherrypicking.... From long ago and far away - you have yet to answer...

do you agree that "This country, was not based on selfless service, sacrifice, renunciation or any precept of altruism." This is a central concept in Rand's philosophy...​

Until you answer this Foss - I will be putting you on the back burner... You claim to be a know all to end all on how wonderful Rand is, based on reading Atlas Shrugged, how her cookie cutter philosophy of objectivism is something to be glorified and striven for... so go for it - show me what is to be glorified in that central credo of her philosophy, Shrugged falls apart without that at its core.

 

[shagdrum]

And Shag, an economic system can oppress a people - don't you think? Just as effectively as a government.

Your dodging...

how can you "achieve" natural rights? Specifically, how can you "achieve" economic freedom?

how does capitalism "oppress millions"? What specific burdens are placed on people that overwhelm and crush them?

It is rude to answer a question with a question...

 

[04SCTLS]

Here are a few definitions of "oppressed":

op·press:

1. To keep down by severe and unjust use of force or authority
2. To weigh heavily on
3. To overwhelm or crush

Predatory credit card company interest rates come to mind.
They lay in wait courting not creditworthy people with offers, knowing
many will get trapped in what becomes essentially a perpetuity to be milked for late fees and interest indefinately.
They also offer credit cards to students with no income.
There are millions of pigeons to exploit.

These people are the banks "best" customers, not the ones who pay off balances in full, and are refered to as deadbeats in bank lingo.
People of low income are a great source of interest and fee revenue
for huge banks.

Of course these people have mostly no one but themselves to blame but if you dangle tempatation like this in front of them many will bite, thinking fancifully they will be able to make their payments.

Ripping off the poor due to their weaknesses is a time honored income method with some lenders.

 

[shagdrum]

Predatory credit card company interest rates come to mind.
They lay in wait courting not creditworthy people with offers, knowing
many will get trapped in what becomes essentially a perpetuity to be milked for late fees and interest indefinately.
They also offer credit cards to students with no income.
There are millions of pigeons to exploit.

These people are the banks "best" customers, not the ones who pay off balances in full, and are refered to as deadbeats in bank lingo.
People of low income are a great source of interest and fee revenue
for huge banks.

Of course these people have mostly no one but themselves to blame but if you dangle tempatation like this in front of them many will bite, thinking fancifully they will be able to make their payments.

Ripping off the poor due to their weaknesses is a time honored income method with some lenders.

Those are all things that people freely choose to get involved in. If the "oppression" in question stems from their own poor choices, then it is hardly "capitalism" oppressing them. Even if you attribute it to some percieved "weakness" on the part of the poor, it is still not "capitalism" that is oppressing them, but their own personal failings. Unless you reject the notion of individual responsibility.

In order to prove that capitalism "oppresses", you have to show that capitalism somehow unjustly burdens people in a way that cannot be avoided through their individual choices and actions.