How much more freedom are we willing to give up?

fossten

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I've heard ad infinitum from you compromisers about how Ron Paul's message is good, he's just not the right guy. For those of you who complain that it's the messenger, Ron Paul will be out of the race eventually. It will be time for you to put your money where your mouth is and join the revolution. We all know that the establishment as it is will not ever go back to the way America should be with the current system in place, and that includes the Republican party.

It's time to stand up for ourselves.

If you've never seen the lion/water buffalo video before, watch it all the way through.
 
People think Bush attacked our rights.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wait till teleprompter Oblahblah gets in charge.

I need to make and hide the money as fast as I can. May have to leave LvC to spend more time treasure-hunting.
 
People think Bush attacked our rights.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wait till teleprompter Oblahblah gets in charge.

I need to make and hide the money as fast as I can. May have to leave LvC to spend more time treasure-hunting.
I don't think Bush's intention was to spy on Americans. But someone like Hillary or B. Hussein Obama will take full advantage of these kinds of laws.

And don't forget about gun control laws (20,000 on the books), hate speech laws, and search/seizure like you see in the pic above.
 
I don't think Bush's intention was to spy on Americans. But someone like Hillary or B. Hussein Obama will take full advantage of these kinds of laws.
I DO think Bush wants spy on all of us and that he doesn't give a rat's ass about the Constitution, but if the fear of Hillary or Obama with these powers is what it takes to get you guys to wake up then so be it.
 
Well, the Democrats just rolled over for Bush again yesterday when they supported FISA with regards to giving immunity to the telecom companies.

Remember the NYT and all the liberals in this country screaming bloody murder about FISA?

Well, well. Look who's in power and who just voted for the legislation.

McCain voted for it.

Obama voted against it (which I think automatically disqualifies him to be POTUS)

Hillary didn't show up which shows just how desperate she is to become CIC. She couldn't even perform her elected duty. She was too busy going to Texas to give a speech in front of 50 people.
 
I DO think Bush wants spy on all of us and that he doesn't give a rat's ass about the Constitution, but if the fear of Hillary or Obama with these powers is what it takes to get you guys to wake up then so be it.
LOL.

If only you could hear yourself speak.

Haven't been attacked here in the U.S. for 7 years.

Let's see how well Oblahblah or HillBilly does.
 
Well, the Democrats just rolled over for Bush again yesterday when they supported FISA with regards to giving immunity to the telecom companies.

Remember the NYT and all the liberals in this country screaming bloody murder about FISA?

Well, well. Look who's in power and who just voted for the legislation.

McCain voted for it.

Obama voted against it (which I think automatically disqualifies him to be POTUS)

Hillary didn't show up which shows just how desperate she is to become CIC. She couldn't even perform her elected duty. She was too busy going to Texas to give a speech in front of 50 people.
No comment on the actual topic of the thread? What did I expect...

Obama is not qualified to be POTUS, true. But neither is McCain. He wasn't born in the United States. And he's a wacko.

Big lie examples:

OJ was innocent.
Clinton didn't inhale.
The check's in the mail.
The government wants us to keep all of our rights, even that pesky 2nd amendment crap.
 
No comment on the actual topic of the thread? What did I expect...

Um, according to you and Ron Paul, we should pull out of the world and put all our military might on our borders. We should have to make people cross over barbed wire at the terminal and be subject to cavity searches in order to secure Amerika.

Wait till the next attack. You ain't seen nothing yet as far as taking away freedom.

Paul's foreign policy is a disaster. Far worse than Bush's pre-emption.

Bush tried to do what was minimally necessary to protect America.
Now sit back and watch what the liberals do with the media's blessing.
 
Obama is not qualified to be POTUS, true. But neither is McCain. He wasn't born in the United States.

McCain wasn't born in the US? Where was he born?

Also, since you are asserting McCain isn't qualified to be POTUS on constitutional ground, I assume you have someting along the lines for Obama?
 
McCain was born at Coco Solo Air Base in the Panama Canal Zone, August 29, 1936. The Panama Canal Zone was a U.S. Territory from 1903 to 1979 (thanks, Carter!), so, any person born there was automatically considered a U.S. citizen, except if born to foreign diplomatic personnel.
 
Telecom AmnestyCongress should stop lawbreaking, not reward it—as the Senate's spy bill does.

By Timothy B. Lee
Posted Wednesday, Feb. 13, 2008, at 3:52 PM ET
Sen. Harry Reid
Republicans scored a victory yesterday—with the help of many Democrats and independent Joe Lieberman—with the Senate's spy bill. The legislation would give retroactive immunity to telecom companies who have shared customer data with the government in violation of the law, and it would expand the government's ability to spy on Americans' international phone calls without court oversight. Conservatives were ecstatic. "Immunity is very, very important, obviously, to get the full capability and cooperation we need," Republican Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson, R-Texas, said yesterday. And yet this enthusiasm for telecom immunity is a betrayal of a principle Republicans love to invoke in other contexts. "America is based on the rule of law, and that law must be enforced," Sen. Hutchison thundered during last year's immigration debate. The conservative arguments against forgiving illegal immigrants apply with equal force to the telecom industry, even if no one made them yesterday.
The issue isn't whether Congress should block cooperation between telecom companies and the government when the National Security Agency wants to engage in eavesdropping on American soil. The debate is about whether that cooperation should be subject to judicial oversight, as the law has required for the last 30 years, or whether instead the telecom companies can simply ignore the law when the president asks them to. Last November, former Attorney General John Ashcroft suggested that firms that participated in warrantless surveillance programs "based on explicit assurances from the highest levels of the government" should be let off the hook.
Accepting this argument, as the Senate did yesterday, undermines the fundamental purpose of the warrant process, which is to ensure independent review of domestic spying activities. And the law was quite clear on this point. FISA makes it a criminal offense to "engage in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute." The law included a variety of exceptions, but until the passage of the Protect America Act last summer, none of them involved "assurances from the highest levels of government." Firms like Verizon and AT&T have small armies of lawyers who know this area of law as well as anyone on the planet. They hardly needed the president's help to interpret it. If the firms' actions were in compliance with the law, they'll have the opportunity to prove that in court. And that is where the fight should play out.
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Press reports suggest that the Bush administration has created at least two warrantless surveillance programs with the cooperation of major telecom companies. The first, reported by the New York Times in 2005, involved the warrantless interception of several hundred Americans' international phone calls and e-mails. Under the second, first reported by USA Today in 2006, Verizon and AT&T (then called SBC) reportedly provided the government with access to the domestic calling records of its customers. Qwest CEO Joseph P. Nacchio declined to participate in the latter program, believing that doing so would be against the law. Nacchio now alleges that the NSA retaliated for his refusal by canceling an unrelated, lucrative government contract. (He faces unrelated charges of insider trading.) Last summer, the Heritage Foundation's Matthew Spalding insisted that giving amnesty to illegal immigrants would be "deeply unfair to the millions who obey the law and abide by the rules."
By the same token, letting AT&T and Verizon off the hook would not only be unfair to the customers whose privacy they violated, it would also be unfair to Qwest, which was put at a competitive disadvantage for obeying the law. Nor is retroactive immunity necessarily constitutional, at least as long as the telecoms don't have to give some compensation to the people who filed the lawsuits that would be scratched by the Senate's bill.
Republican senators have argued that Verizon and AT&T are unable to defend themselves adequately because the Bush administration is preventing them from disclosing classified documents that could exonerate them. But the courts have a long track record of reviewing sensitive information in private and dismissing cases that cannot be litigated fairly without exposing state secrets. Last year, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit dismissed a lawsuit against the Bush administration for warrantless surveillance because the plaintiffs' case hinged on the contents of a classified document. The court held that the case could not be litigated without exposing state secrets and so it would not be litigated at all. The 9th Circuit has so far refused to dismiss on state secret grounds the pending class action lawsuit against AT&T for its participation in warrantless surveillance. But the court has signaled that it is open to reconsidering this decision as the case proceeds. If the House follows the Senate, the judges won't have the opportunity. The telecoms won't have to admit they broke the law or compensate their customers. What sort of incentive does that give them to refuse the next time the government asks them to break the law?
Now, the Senate bill will move to a conference committee to be reconciled with House legislation that does not include a free pass for the telecoms or authorize warrantless surveillance of Americans' international communications. With the Democrats controlling both houses of Congress, one might expect the conference committee to side with the House. But the Democratic leadership's heart doesn't seem to be in the fight. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., seemed ready to capitulate after yesterday's vote when he said the bill had been "improved" by the Senate and that he "preferred to move on to other legislation."
Particularly disappointing was Hillary Clinton's decision to skip yesterday's votes. On the campaign trail, Sen. Clinton has argued that her years of Washington experience give her a unique ability to fight back against Republican hardball tactics. Those skills were sorely needed in the Senate yesterday, but she didn't fit the debate into her schedule. Some Democratic voters may wonder if this is the kind of leadership she would show as president. In contrast, Barack Obama voted with civil libertarian Russ Feingold, D-Wis., on all six amendments and the cloture vote, only missing the vote on the final bill after the outcome had become clear. More Democrats should have followed Feingold. If Congress wants its laws to be followed in the future, it cannot give a free pass to companies that broke the law in the past. Republicans are clearly forgetting this. House Democrats should stand up to them.
_______________________________________________
Republicans like to call themselves the party of law and order but have no qualms about breaking the law when it suits their purposes.
If they want to spy warrentlessly they should pass the laws to make it legal before and not after the fact.
But they would have to sell it to the people and that can be inconvenient. The Republicans are the bigger hypocrates here.
It's not a big leap to decide that extending secret warrantless surveillance to all americans that the government considers a threat to society(a subjective conclusion in the eye of unelected security type law enforcement beholders) is in the best national interest.
This is a very slippery slope sold on good intentions.
 
Barack Obama was born in Hawaii on August 4th, 1961. His father, Barack Obama Sr., was born and raised in a small village in Kenya, where he grew up herding goats with his own father, who was a domestic servant to the British.
Barack's mother, Ann Dunham, grew up in small-town Kansas. Her father worked on oil rigs during the Depression, and then signed up for World War II after Pearl Harbor, where he marched across Europe in Patton's army. Her mother went to work on a bomber assembly line, and after the war, they studied on the G.I. Bill, bought a house through the Federal Housing Program, and moved west to Hawaii.
It was there, at the University of Hawaii, where Barack's parents met. His mother was a student there, and his father had won a scholarship that allowed him to leave Kenya and pursue his dreams in America.
Barack's father eventually returned to Kenya, and Barack grew up with his mother in Hawaii, and for a few years in Indonesia. Later, he moved to New York, where he graduated from Columbia University in 1983
________________________________________________________________

Fossten and Monstermark are expressing an opinion as to if Obama is fit to be president.
But nothing in the constitution prohibits him or McCain from being president.
 
The legislation would give retroactive immunity to telecom companies who have shared customer data with the government in violation of the law, and it would expand the government's ability to spy on Americans' international phone calls without court oversight.

What law?

And yet this enthusiasm for telecom immunity is a betrayal of a principle Republicans love to invoke in other contexts. "America is based on the rule of law, and that law must be enforced,"

Again, what law?

The issue isn't whether Congress should block cooperation between telecom companies and the government when the National Security Agency wants to engage in eavesdropping on American soil. The debate is about whether that cooperation should be subject to judicial oversight, as the law has required for the last 30 years, or whether instead the telecom companies can simply ignore the law when the president asks them to.


Mischaracterization, based on a flawed assumption; one more time, what law?

Accepting this argument, as the Senate did yesterday, undermines the fundamental purpose of the warrant process, which is to ensure independent review of domestic spying activities. And the law was quite clear on this point. FISA makes it a criminal offense to "engage in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute."


Domestic spying...under FISA? Talk about spin!! FISA has nothing, repeat NOTHING to do with domestic spying. That is gross distortion bordering on lies.

Besides, FISA is not law because it isn't constitutional.

If the firms' actions were in compliance with the law, they'll have the opportunity to prove that in court.

Now the burden of proof is on the accused?! The author has shown he either is blatantly distorting, or has absolutely NO understanding of how our court system works.

Press reports suggest that the Bush administration has created at least two warrantless surveillance programs with the cooperation of major telecom companies. The first, reported by the New York Times in 2005, involved the warrantless interception of several hundred Americans' international phone calls and e-mails.

International....hmm....

Under the second, first reported by USA Today in 2006, Verizon and AT&T (then called SBC) reportedly provided the government with access to the domestic calling records of its customers.


I wanna see proof that the calls were truely domestic (legal definition) and not just USA TODAY claiming those were domestic calls. In fact, after reading the USA TODAY article there is no claim that domestic spying is going on, just left as an implication. The fact is that the government is building a database of phone numbers. Nothing to suggest that domestic spying is going on.

This whole article is based asumption that is either; A: and extreme misunderstanding of the issue of warrentless wiretaps, or B: a blatant and dishonest represtation of the issue.
 
This warrantless surveillance is not authorized by statute
warrant or court order and therefore illegal


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TITLE 50 > CHAPTER 36 > SUBCHAPTER I > § 1809


§ 1809. Criminal sanctions

(a) Prohibited activities A person is guilty of an offense if he intentionally—
(1) engages in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute; or
(2) discloses or uses information obtained under color of law by electronic surveillance, knowing or having reason to know that the information was obtained through electronic surveillance not authorized by statute.

(b) Defense It is a defense to a prosecution under subsection (a) of this section that the defendant was a law enforcement or investigative officer engaged in the course of his official duties and the electronic surveillance was authorized by and conducted pursuant to a search warrant or court order of a court of competent jurisdiction.

(c) Penalties An offense described in this section is punishable by a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than five years, or both.

(d) Federal jurisdiction There is Federal jurisdiction over an offense under this section if the person committing the offense was an officer or employee of the United States at the time the offense was committed.
 
§ 1802. Electronic surveillance authorization without court order; certification by Attorney General; reports to Congressional committees; transmittal under seal; duties and compensation of communication common carrier; applications; jurisdiction of court



(a) (1) Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year if the Attorney General certifies in writing under oath that— (A) the electronic surveillance is solely directed at— (i) the acquisition of the contents of communications transmitted by means of communications used exclusively between or among foreign powers, as defined in section 1801 (a)(1), (2), or (3) of this title; or
(ii) the acquisition of technical intelligence, other than the spoken communications of individuals, from property or premises under the open and exclusive control of a foreign power, as defined in section 1801 (a)(1), (2), or (3) of this title;


(B) there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party; and
(C) the proposed minimization procedures with respect to such surveillance meet the definition of minimization procedures under section 1801 (h) of this title; and

if the Attorney General reports such minimization procedures and any changes thereto to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence at least thirty days prior to their effective date, unless the Attorney General determines immediate action is required and notifies the committees immediately of such minimization procedures and the reason for their becoming effective immediately.

(2) An electronic surveillance authorized by this subsection may be conducted only in accordance with the Attorney General’s certification and the minimization procedures adopted by him. The Attorney General shall assess compliance with such procedures and shall report such assessments to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence under the provisions of section 1808 (a) of this title.
(3) The Attorney General shall immediately transmit under seal to the court established under section 1803 (a) of this title a copy of his certification. Such certification shall be maintained under security measures established by the Chief Justice with the concurrence of the Attorney General, in consultation with the Director of National Intelligence, and shall remain sealed unless— (A) an application for a court order with respect to the surveillance is made under sections 1801 (h)(4) and 1804 of this title; or
(B) the certification is necessary to determine the legality of the surveillance under section 1806 (f) of this title.


(4) With respect to electronic surveillance authorized by this subsection, the Attorney General may direct a specified communication common carrier to— (A) furnish all information, facilities, or technical assistance necessary to accomplish the electronic surveillance in such a manner as will protect its secrecy and produce a minimum of interference with the services that such carrier is providing its customers; and
(B) maintain under security procedures approved by the Attorney General and the Director of National Intelligence any records concerning the surveillance or the aid furnished which such carrier wishes to retain.

The Government shall compensate, at the prevailing rate, such carrier for furnishing such aid.


(b) Applications for a court order under this subchapter are authorized if the President has, by written authorization, empowered the Attorney General to approve applications to the court having jurisdiction under section 1803 of this title, and a judge to whom an application is made may, notwithstanding any other law, grant an order, in conformity with section 1805 of this title, approving electronic surveillance of a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power for the purpose of obtaining foreign intelligence information, except that the court shall not have jurisdiction to grant any order approving electronic surveillance directed solely as described in paragraph (1)(A) of subsection (a) of this section unless such surveillance may involve the acquisition of communications of any United States person.
_______________________________________________

My reading of this is that the US government can only warrantlessly spy on communications between foreigners and foreign agents only and not americans international communications
 
This warrantless surveillance is not authorized by statute
warrant or court order and therefore illegal

There is no applicable law which effects foreign spying, as the legislature cannot make such laws, it is outside their power to do so. Any law (including FISA) that attempts to do so is unconstitutional and not applicable. For clarification, FISA stands for Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Foreign policy, including spying, is constitutionally left to the Executive. The only area that congress has any say when it comes to foreign policy is declaration of war and treaties.

According to a Justice Department brief, "the Constitution vests in the president inherent authority to conduct warrantless intelligence surveillance (electronic or otherwise) of foreign powers or their agents, and Congress cannot by statute extinguish that constitutional authority."

This argument was based, in part, on a number of federal appellate cases in which the courts recognized the president's inherent power to conduct warrantless electronic surveillance to collect foreign intelligence info. From the 1984 case of United States v. Duggan (Second Circuit Court of Appeals):

Prior to the enactment of FISA, virtually every court that had addressed the issue had concluded that the president had the inherent power to conduct warrantless electronic surveillance to collect foreign intelligence information, and that such surveillances constituted an exception to the warrant requirement of the Fourth Amendment.

From the FISA Court itself in 2002:

We take for granted that the President does have [inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information] and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President's constitutional power.

From a panel of former FISA judges testifying before the Senate Judiciary Committee:

[the president has] constitutional authority to spy on suspected international agents under an executive order

Judge Allan Kornblum, one of the authors of FISA:

If a court refuses a FISA application and there is not sufficient time for the president to go to the court of review, the president can under executive order act unilaterally, which he is doing now. I think that the president would be remiss exercising his constitutional authority by giving all of that power over to a statute.
 
§ 1802. Electronic surveillance authorization without court order; certification by Attorney General; reports to Congressional committees; transmittal under seal; duties and compensation of communication common carrier; applications; jurisdiction of court

FISA is codified in 50 U.S.C. §§1801–1811, 1821–29, 1841–46, and 1861–62


Again, FISA, bad law. Not legally binding, and hence, not applicable.

Cite all the laws you want. Unless they are constitutional, they are worthless. Seeing as they cannot be constitutional (in regards to foreign spying), you are wasting your time.

You need to ask yourself, why has there not been an actual example of illegality in regards to foreign (or domestic) spying brought before the courts yet?




Haven't we discussed this in another thread?
 
I'm not agueing that the government needs warrants to spy on foreign governments or agents since these statutes I cited expressly permit this.
Government spying on americans if only through call logs for now is fairly new and mostly shrouded in secrecy unless revealed by muckraking journalists.
Actual harm has not been shown to have occurred but expanded surveillance has eroded privacy.
Since this thread started out about how much privacy are you willing to give up it won't take much for call logs to get expanded to warrantless eavesdropping on conversations based on searching for key words alluding to terrorism.
This brute force approach will no doubt violate millions of people's privacy in the search for the very few terrorists, even home grown ones like Tim McVey, that may turn up.

So the question still is How much privacy (and freedom) are you willing to give up for (possibly) more security.
 
the second, first reported by USA Today in 2006, Verizon and AT&T (then called SBC) reportedly provided the government with access to the domestic calling records of its customers.

I actually checked this out, and the author of the article is wrong. This wasn't first reported by USA TODAY, but the New York Times. The USA Today piece was written by Leslie Cauley, was has strong ties to the Democratic Party. USA TODAY placed the story on it's from page immediately before confirmation hearings for CIA nominee General Michael Hayden. The USA TODAY piece was largely a recycling of old news; the New York Times reported the essential facts the previous December.

Seems the author needs to do better fact checking.

Check this story out for more info:

http://www.newsbusters.org/node/5435
 
Government spying on americans if only through call logs for now is fairly new and mostly shrouded in secrecy unless revealed by muckraking journalists.

As far back as the 1960's. Katz v. United States (1967)



...expanded surveillance has eroded privacy.


As to Foreign surveillance (FISA), there is no errosion of privacy, as no such privacy ever existed. When it comes to Domestic spying, the Bush administration has gotten warrants when legally called for, so no erosion there, either.

The distinction between foreign and domestic is important. The media and democrats are claiming that foreign surveillance is domestic, or ignoring the point all together. To be clear, foreign communication is legally defined as communication beginning and/or ending outside the US. Both ends of the communication have to be in the country to be considered domestic. Democrats and the media are trying to spin, claiming that if only one end of the communication is in this country, then the communication is domestic. This is blatant distortion


So the question still is How much privacy (and freedom) are you willing to give up for (possibly) more security.

Where has that tradeoff actually happened under Bush?

There is also the other side of the coin, in regards to the current politics of this issue; How much spin are you willing to buy in regards to claims of loss of freedom?
 
With the phone companies demanding a retraction and her own Democratic connections now revealed, the “value” of her unnamed sources seems increasingly dubious. Could Leslie Cauley be on her way to becoming a print version of CBS’s disgraced Mary Mapes?

This article doesn't say this is all B---S, just says it seems increasingly dubious, then coyly asks a question Could she be a B---S artist without answering it.

I tend to not give intellegence and law enforcement agencies the benefit of the doubt. They'll liberally interpret what they can do within the rules and break them if suits their purposes.
 
I tend to not give intellegence and law enforcement agencies the benefit of the doubt. They'll liberally interpret what they can do within the rules and break them if suits their purposes.



I would argue that democratic governments (in general) should get the benifet of the doubt (especially law enforcement agencies), until proven to be abusing power. Otherwise, you would have to live in constant paranoia of the government. In fact, most people might say they don't trust the government, but you can tell, by the way they live their lives that they do trust the government. The only people I truely believe don't trust the government are those isolated neo-nazi militia groups.
 
The distinction between foreign and domestic is important. The media and democrats are claiming that foreign surveillance is domestic, or ignoring the point all together. To be clear, foreign communication is legally defined as communication beginning and/or ending outside the US. Both ends of the communication have to be in the country to be considered domestic. Democrats and the media are trying to spin, claiming that if only one end of the communication is in this country, then the communication is domestic. This is blatant distortion


(B) there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party; and
(C) the proposed minimization procedures with respect to such surveillance meet the definition of minimization procedures under section 1801 (h) of this title;

I disagree that both sides of the conversation have to come from within the US.
The above passage would indicate that a warrant is required if one party to the conversation is a United States person and the other is foreign unless the US person is judged to be a foreign agent.
 
This article doesn't say this is all B---S, just says it seems increasingly dubious, then coyly asks a question Could she be a B---S artist without answering it.

No, but in all this, there has never been an actual claim of domestic spying; just claims of the government making a database.
 

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