How much more freedom are we willing to give up?

(B) there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party; and
(C) the proposed minimization procedures with respect to such surveillance meet the definition of minimization procedures under section 1801 (h) of this title;

I disagree that both sides of the conversation have to come from within the US.
The above passage would indicate that a warrant is required if one party to the conversation is a United States person and the other is foreign unless the US person is judged to be a foreign agent.

Again, FISA, not applicable.


The courts have consistently upheld my defintion. FISA is (among other things) an unconstitutional attempt by Congress to substitute their own views and judgements (including defintions) for the legal ones.

BTW, I couldn't find that page. Could you link to it? I wanna see it in context; what it is listing or trying to clarify.
 
I would argue that democratic governments (in general) should get the benifet of the doubt (especially law enforcement agencies), until proven to be abusing power. Otherwise, you would have to live in constant paranoia of the government. In fact, most people might say they don't trust the government, but you can tell, by the way they live their lives that they do trust the government. The only people I truely believe don't trust the government are those isolated neo-nazi militia groups.

The NRA doesn't trust the government.
It is healthy for our freedom to have a level of distrust in the elected officials.
 
The NRA doesn't trust the government.
It is healthy for our freedom to have a level of distrust in the elected officials.

The NRA doesn't distrust the government so much as see a trend they don't like in regards to the 2nd Amendment that they expect to keep going unless they can change it. If they distrusted the government, then why would they lobby it and try to effect change?

Agressively hold the government accountable (especially at the ballot box), not distrust it. You can't live in fear. I think the "level of distrust" is a platitude, nothing else. Usually people who use this argument have no clue about the nature of the government and how it works (you of course being an exception). This argument is usually an excuse for intellectual laziness. I would say not a "healthy distrust" but an informed and accurate understanding of the government and how it works. Not having absolute faith is not the same as distrust. If you expect the government to be perfect, then you are always gonna be disappointed, and turn distrustful. If you understand the government (and all its flaws) and have reasonable expectations of that government, you will not be distrustful, IMO. Our government is a reflection of our self-interested voting and how informed or uninformed (usually uninformed) that voting is.

This is a somewhat subjective issue. However, if you have conflicting stories of an incident involving a law enforcement official and a crack dealer, who are you gonna believe?
 
Um, according to you and Ron Paul, we should pull out of the world and put all our military might on our borders. We should have to make people cross over barbed wire at the terminal and be subject to cavity searches in order to secure Amerika.

Bryan, stop lying. You are perpetuating the old tactic of repeating lies often enough in the hope that they will be believed. It's really sickening.

This country won't be conquered from the outside. It will collapse on the inside due to overinflated currency, debt, and excessive loss of freedom. It's already happening. And YOUR BOY McCain will contribute to it. Deal with that.

I never took you for a statist fearmonger. Keep your head in the sand, Bryan. Don't bother doing your own research. Don't believe that we're losing freedoms. Don't look at the photo I posted.
 
Yeah, what is the context of that thing? Is it in an airport?

Also, how many freedoms can that old guy truely exercise?:D :joke
LOL
 
Yeah, what is the context of that thing? Is it in an airport?

Also, how many freedoms can that old guy truely exercise?:D :joke
LOL

Clearly an airport.

How about the freedom from tyrannical, politically correct, warrantless searches? If we'd profile properly we could leave ol' Grandpa alone.
 
Here is an article relevant to this discussion:

http://opinionjournal.com/weekend/hottopic/?id=110008376

The Bush Administration's Big Brother operation is at it again--or so media reports and Democrats this week would have us believe. We suspect, however, that this political tempest will founder on the good sense of the American people much like the earlier one did.

Last December, the New York Times reported that after 9/11 the National Security Agency began listening to overseas phone calls of suspected terrorists, including calls placed from or received inside the U.S. This was supposed be a scandal because the tapping was done without a warrant from something called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. But as the debate wore on, it became clear that the 1978 FISA statute didn't block a President's power to allow such national-security wiretaps, and that most Americans expected their government to eavesdrop on terror suspects.

Now comes a sensationalist USA Today front-pager suggesting an even larger scandal. The government is "amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans--most of whom aren't suspected of any crime." Worse, reporter Leslie Cauley writes, while President Bush had suggested after the wiretapping story that "domestic call records" (her words) were still private, we now know that's "not the case."

Democrats are outraged, or at least they pretend to be. And major papers have joined the chorus, with the Washington Post calling the newly reported program a "massive intrusion on personal privacy." We're prepared to be outraged, too, if somebody would first bother to explain in detail what the problem is.

Let's start by debunking Ms. Cauley's piece of journalistic sleight of hand. President Bush never suggested that domestic call "records" were private. He has said actual warrantless surveillance was restricted to conversations that involved an overseas party: "The government does not listen [our emphasis] to domestic phone calls without court approval." Datamining and wiretapping are not the same thing. So much for the "Bush lied" angle to this story.
Yes, Mr. Bush could have volunteered the larger "datamining" details at the time. But no President is obliged to divulge every secret program, especially one central to war-fighting. Had Mr. Bush done so, we doubt Democrats and the press corps would have sat back and said OK, thanks, let's move on--not when they see his poll numbers and sense a chance to take back Congress this autumn.

And once it's clear that telephone records are all we're talking about here, the rest of this alleged scandal melts away. Nobody has suggested one single call has been listened to as part of the program reported this week by USA Today. Rather, the datamining appears to keep track, after the fact, of most calls placed to and from a great many phone numbers in the U.S. In other words, the scary government database contains the same information you see on your monthly phone bill--slightly less, in fact, since names aren't attached to numbers and never will be unless government computers detect activity suspicious enough to warrant some being singled out of billions of others.

And what might the government do with these records? Well, it might use them to break up a suspected terror plot--presumably after requesting a surveillance warrant for any future domestic calls it actually wants to listen to (nobody has suggested otherwise). As important, the database will enable us to respond much more effectively to the next terrorist attack. Once the ringleader or leaders are identified, this information will make it much easier to track down any remaining comrades and prevent them from committing future crimes.

In short, the database is utterly non-invasive in itself and merely provides information for law enforcement to use, with warrants whenever necessary. By using this technology to find terrorists in haystacks before they can strike, the government can afford not to resort to the much more heavy-handed inspection and inconvenience practiced by necessity in, say, Israel. Liberals who object to datamining should wait until they see the "massive intrusion on personal privacy" that Americans will demand if the U.S. homeland gets hit again.

Alas, even some Republicans are buying into the notion that datamining is cause for alarm. Senate Judiciary Chairman Arlen Specter has threatened to subpoena the major U.S. phone companies to explain why they've been cooperating with the government. California Democrat Dianne Feinstein predicts "a major constitutional confrontation" over Fourth Amendment guarantees against "unreasonable search and seizure." And Michigan's John Conyers--who would take over House Judiciary if Democrats win in November--wants a bill to ensure that phone records are collected within the confines of FISA.

But since the database doesn't involve any wiretapping, FISA doesn't apply. The FISA statute specifically says its regulations do not cover any "process used by a provider or customer of a wire or electronic communication service for billing, or recording as an incident to billing." As to Ms. Feinstein's invocation of the Fourth Amendment, the Supreme Court has already held (Smith v. Maryland, 1979) that the government can legally collect phone numbers since callers who expect to be billed by their phone company have no "reasonable expectation of privacy" concerning such matters.

So the law appears to be on the Bush Administration's side here. And so does public opinion. An ABC News/Washington Post poll yesterday found that 63% of those surveyed approve of the database program. That's similar to the public's reaction to the warrantless wiretapping controversy, and helps explain why the President's critics on surveillance issues rarely have the courage of their professed civil libertarian convictions.

Instead, they will quibble endlessly over procedural formalities while conceding the broad policy goals. The chutzpah prize on this score goes to Wisconsin Senator Russ Feingold, whose position on wiretapping is that we should definitely be listening to al Qaeda but that Mr. Bush has committed an impeachable offense by doing it the wrong way. Republicans would love to see a Democratic Presidential nominee take that proposition into the 2008 election.


Most Americans seem to be cooler customers, or perhaps they can sort substance from mere political opportunism. After all, even most of the Democratic critics of datamining don't say they'd stop it. They just want to see it "investigated" and supervised--by them and their fellows in Congress, so they can pound away at the President without having to take responsibility for keeping America safe.
Perhaps Americans outside Washington understand that it's probably not an accident that the homeland hasn't been attacked again since 9/11, and that maybe--just maybe--the aggressive surveillance policies of the Bush Administration are one reason.
 

Members online

No members online now.
Back
Top