Hypocracy of "Religious Right" EXPOSED

[TheDude]

Be careful when you use the word 'proof.' That's a strong word, and your premise is flawed because you don't know all the facts. I would say that his dismay at being caught would indicate that he has a choice. Nowadays it is more acceptable to be gay in our society, so there wouldn't seem to be any real reason to conceal it. If what you say is true, then he should stay gay and abandon the evangelicals. I suspect he will not do that.

There is evidence that homosexuality is a choice by the large number of people that have converted from it. And science has never been able to isolate a so-called "homosexual gene." I know we could debate this all day, so I would recommend that we agree that it is still an issue that is being debated.

...or, he will just be another gay man hiding his sexuality because it doesn't mix well with the religion of his choosing. As far as it being "more acceptable", that is a loaded answer, because it really depends which part of the world 'you' live in and which social circles 'you' associate with. In Haggard's case, homosexuality is not and will not be tolerated in his circle. He couldn't just come out and say "I am a gay man" and expect his church/community to be alright with it.

I'd be curious to here you say more about the 'conversion from homosexuality' though, because I feel sexuality for the most part is a 'born-with' aspect. I do not think homosexuals are made, just as I do not think heterosexuals are made by environment. If someone could be converted from homosexuality, as in truly converted/genuinely attracted to the opposite sex and not just made to think they are as to be accepted or to fit in better. It would stand to reason a straight person could be converted too homosexuality and be genuinely be attracted to the same sex, which I find to be highly improbable.

 

[fossten]

...or, he will just be another gay man hiding his sexuality because it doesn't mix well with the religion of his choosing. As far as it being "more acceptable", that is a loaded answer, because it really depends which part of the world 'you' live in and which social circles 'you' associate with. In Haggard's case, homosexuality is not and will not be tolerated in his circle. He couldn't just come out and say "I am a gay man" and expect his church/community to be alright with it.

I'd be curious to here you say more about the 'conversion from homosexuality' though, because I feel sexuality for the most part is a 'born-with' aspect. I do not think homosexuals are made, just as I do not think heterosexuals are made by environment. If someone could be converted from homosexuality, as in truly converted/genuinely attracted to the opposite sex and not just made to think they are as to be accepted or to fit in better. It would stand to reason a straight person could be converted too homosexuality and be genuinely be attracted to the same sex, which I find to be highly improbable.

If you're already predisposed to reject any argument that I might make, why would I bother?

 

[TheDude]

If you're already predisposed to reject any argument that I might make, why would I bother?

Good grief... Like you aren't already "predisposed" to reject any argument I make on the subject? I think I am right just as much as you think you're right. The only thing we can hope for would be one of us to make more sense, bring more facts and/or show his thoughts to have a higher rate of probability than the other and just maybe sway the other slighty. So stop acting like a nancy-boy and debate, or don't, but please don't use the "<sigh>why would I bother?" tactic.

 

[fossten]

Good grief... Like you aren't already "predisposed" to reject any argument I make on the subject? I think I am right just as much as you think you're right. The only thing we can hope for would be one of us to make more sense, bring more facts and/or show his thoughts to have a higher rate of probability than the other and just maybe sway the other slighty. So stop acting like a nancy-boy and debate, or don't, but please don't use the "<sigh>why would I bother?" tactic.

I don't have time to pull out reams and sheafs of articles today, so I'll just share my thoughts on the subject.

There are counseling centers which have documented hundreds of gay people who attended the counseling programs and changed their behavior from gay to straight because they wanted to.

I'm sure you've heard of many cases where girls were raped in high school or college, or molested by their fathers or uncles, and turned lesbian. I've personally spoken to people who made those choices.

Both examples above indicate a conscious choice rather than a genetic programming. To me, it's no different than drinking alcohol or doing drugs or smoking or biting your nails or any other behavior or addiction somebody engages in. Every day we wake up and make choices, and if you want to change your life you can. There is no genetic code that forces us to do those things. But our society has degenerated into an "I can't help it" attitude that excuses all behavior as a "lifestyle". And yes, even the gays call it a "lifestyle choice."

A man who is straight can remain celibate for an indefinite amount of time, and he won't die. You won't find one single case in the history of the world where anyone has died from not having sex. If that's the case, then certainly who we engage in sex with is a choice as well.

 

[TheDude]

I don't have time to pull out reams and sheafs of articles today, so I'll just share my thoughts on the subject.

There are counseling centers which have documented hundreds of gay people who attended the counseling programs and changed their behavior from gay to straight because they wanted to.

I'm sure you've heard of many cases where girls were raped in high school or college, or molested by their fathers or uncles, and turned lesbian. I've personally spoken to people who made those choices.

Both examples above indicate a conscious choice rather than a genetic programming. To me, it's no different than drinking alcohol or doing drugs or smoking or biting your nails or any other behavior or addiction somebody engages in. Every day we wake up and make choices, and if you want to change your life you can. There is no genetic code that forces us to do those things. But our society has degenerated into an "I can't help it" attitude that excuses all behavior as a "lifestyle". And yes, even the gays call it a "lifestyle choice."

A man who is straight can remain celibate for an indefinite amount of time, and he won't die. You won't find one single case in the history of the world where anyone has died from not having sex. If that's the case, then certainly who we engage in sex with is a choice as well.

Do you have certain points that are arguably valid, i.e. people choosing the same sex because of a bad/horrible experience with the opposite sex. But do you really think this is the norm for a homosexual person?

I agree we consciously make choices, but do you not think that some people are inclined to sway a certain way more than another person might? I'm not so sure about society degenerating as a cause for homosexuality, using Haggard as an example, he surrounded himself with what would be considered moral people, he followed the book of a religion that one would say is guide on the how to's of being moral etc. etc. etc. Yet, he is a gay man. Also, homosexuality has existed since at least recorded time, so it would reason that society is not the cause or the a leading cause.

Yes and no Fossten... A gay man can make the willful choice to not have sex with another man, just as you could make the choice to not have sex with blonde women or women shorter than 5'6" or... But a homosexual just as a heterosexual cannot control who he finds sexually attractive, so 'he' might not be having sex with another man, he's still homosexual.

BTW, thanks for sharing your thoughts and doing a mass copy/paste.

 

[fossten]

You raise some good points as well. I think that the gorilla in the room that nobody wants to talk about is twofold:

1. Is homosexuality a moral issue as defined by the Bible? If so, then the Bible is very clear what is a natural urge and what is an unnatural urge.

2. Have there been any studies done to show the general age that someone "realizes" or "decides" they are homosexual?

 

[MAC1]

I tend to believe that homosexuality has a genetic component for some while a choice for others. I wouldn't say that without a doubt homosexuality is about choice only.

 

[TheDude]

You raise some good points as well. I think that the gorilla in the room that nobody wants to talk about is twofold:

1. Is homosexuality a moral issue as defined by the Bible? If so, then the Bible is very clear what is a natural urge and what is an unnatural urge.

2. Have there been any studies done to show the general age that someone "realizes" or "decides" they are homosexual?

No one argues the Bible's stance on homosexuality as it is straight forward. As far as it being immoral, that depends on what one views as a "moral". I have a hard time believing it is immoral as it causes no harm with the exception of people allowing themselves to be bothered by seeing/thinking of same-sex couples or same-sex sex. Some people can't stand "interracial sex"; that doesn't make it immoral though.

Not sure, but I know people who say they have been attracted to the same sex since an early age and the thought of having sex with the opposite sex never occured to them as something enjoyable. They were and are simply not interested. Funny story, I used to work with a gay guy who actually told me he thought the vagina was "Disgusting" and didn't understand why straight guys made such a "Big deal" about it.

It would stand to reason if homosexuality is indeed a "choice" and nothing more, then it would stand to reason we are all born with a 'neutral' sexuality and anyone has an equal potential of being gay depending on their enviroment... I find that highly improbable considering some of the people that are gay and having grown up in enviroments that were not gay 'friendly' in the slightess bit.

 

[TheDude]

I tend to believe that homosexuality has a genetic component for some while a choice for others. I wouldn't say that without a doubt homosexuality is about choice only.

I agree with the genetic part, it could very well be similar to a disorder or an imbalance, since homosexuals would not (usually) be inclined to reproduce and the drive for reproduction is a key component in any species. I have a hard time on the "choice" part though, choice or even a forced impression may have something to do with it in some cases i.e. a molestation, but I think the core of homosexuality is inbreed/genetics.

Think about it... if it were solely a choice in some cases, then it stand to reason (hypothetically speaking) 'a man has have sex with another man' for whatever reason and then decides he just likes it better... Like deciding which icecream flavor taste better... Did you willfully choose which icecream flavor you liked best or did you just happen to one day taste vanilla(or whichever) and something just clicked?

As for the "clicking" part, I do believe there are straight people who for whatever reason had gay sex and the click just wasn't there because whatever it is that makes a person gay just isn't in them.

 

[TheDude]

I tend to believe that homosexuality has a genetic component for some while a choice for others. I wouldn't say that without a doubt homosexuality is about choice only.

I agree with the genetic part, it could very well be similar to a disorder or an imbalance, since homosexuals would not (usually) be inclined to reproduce and the drive for reproduction is a key component in any species. I have a hard time on the "choice" part though, choice or even a forced impression may have something to do with it in some cases i.e. a molestation, but I think the core of homosexuality is inbreed/genetics.

Think about it... if it were solely a choice in some cases, then it stand to reason (hypothetically speaking) 'a man has have sex with another man' for whatever reason and then decides he just likes it better... Like deciding which icecream flavor taste better... Did you willfully choose which icecream flavor you liked best or did you just happen to one day taste vanilla(or whichever) and something just clicked?

As for the "clicking" part, I do believe there are straight people who for whatever reason had gay sex and the click just wasn't there because whatever it is that makes a person gay just isn't in them.

 

[fossten]

It would stand to reason if homosexuality is indeed a "choice" and nothing more, then it would stand to reason we are all born with a 'neutral' sexuality and anyone has an equal potential of being gay depending on their enviroment... I find that highly improbable considering some of the people that are gay and having grown up in enviroments that were not gay 'friendly' in the slightess bit.

I think you're wrong, and I can cite one statistic that bears out my opinion. Only slightly over 1 percent of the population of this country is gay, according to the BEST estimates, whether out of the closet or not. I would think that if we were neutral at birth the ratio would be much higher, even at least 10 percent.

There is zero evidence to support your "neutral" theory. Did you just make it up?

 

[TheDude]

I think you're wrong, and I can cite one statistic that bears out my opinion. Only slightly over 1 percent of the population of this country is gay, according to the BEST estimates, whether out of the closet or not. I would think that if we were neutral at birth the ratio would be much higher, even at least 10 percent.

There is zero evidence to support your "neutral" theory. Did you just make it up?

I agree that people are NOT born with a "neutral" sexual orientation, that is/was my point. I believe one is either born 'homo' or born 'hetero' with some exceptions withstanding and/or affecting the rule, i.e. environment, trauma, etc.

I find that highly improbable...

 

[fossten]

I agree that people are NOT born with a "neutral" sexual orientation, that is/was my point. I believe one is either born 'homo' or born 'hetero' with some exceptions withstanding and/or affecting the rule, i.e. environment, trauma, etc.

Oh, ok, I see. I must have skimmed your post and misread it.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree at this point. However, does it not seem curious to you that we have not isolated the "gay gene" yet?

 

[TheDude]

Oh, ok, I see. I must have skimmed your post and misread it.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree at this point. However, does it not seem curious to you that we have not isolated the "gay gene" yet?

"Yet" doesn't mean it won't/can't happen and even if homosexuality is definitely genetic, should we be trying too in the first place? I'm all for research that could potentially get rid of harmful/deadly genetic disorders like cystic fibrosis and the like, but isolating and/or destroying the so called "gay-gene" would be similar to making designer babies i.e. blonde haired, blue eyes etc. etc. etc.

 

[TheDude]

Daily Show... always good for a laugh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIrRv99MB7A

 

[TheDude]

Good News! After three short weeks of "treatment", Ted has been 'Un-Homofied'. Now he'll be able to take back the mantle as head minister and continue to preach hypocritical intolerance... hallelujah!