I am outraged. Blah, blah, blah.

[MonsterMark]

Looks like Clinton had his own dirty underwear to launder.

Can't wait to see what you left-wingers have to say about this...Better make it good.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Documents: U.S. had plan to nuke N. Korea

Seoul, South Korea, Nov. 7 (UPI) --

Newly declassified documents revealed the United States planned as recently as 1998 to drop nuclear bombs on North Korea if the country attacked South Korea.

As part of "scenario 5027," 24 F15-E bombers flew simulation missions at Seymour Johnson Air Force Base in North Carolina to drop mock nuclear bombs on a firing range between January and June 1998, the Korea Times reported Sunday.
The revelation followed claims by a South Korean lawmaker that the U.S. drew up plans to launch preemptive strikes on key targets in North Korea in 1994.

The report also came amid concerns that President George Bush will take a tougher stance with North Korea during his second term.

The declassified documents also said the U.S. had kept nuclear weaponry in South Korea until at least 1998, despite officially claiming it had withdrawn all nuclear warheads in 1991.

Clinton is a liar and a war mongerer I guess. He almost ended the world. Blah, blah, blah.

 

[Joeychgo]

Oh please. Bryan, you CANT be this nieve.

When a President turns to the military and says "Give me plans for military options" - the military draws up different sets of plans for different kinds of action and nucular is almost aloways on that list. You think GW doesnt have nucular plans on his desk right now for the dropping of nuclear weapons on N Korea, Iran, Iraq and other countries?

It doesnt mean he is planning such action - its jsut one of a dozen military options at his disposal.

This is called taking a routine thing every President has - and twisting it around until its useful for an attack against the person you want to attack. As far as the disinformation, please. You think its policy to be honest about where our nuclear weapons are or arent? Call him a liar for that - go ahead.

Think about something Bryan. After the election I said GW is our President and we need to be one country again. Why is it that none ofus left wingers have been taking pot shots at him since the election, but you continue to do so?

Who is causing the division here?

 

[Katshot]

It's called "sabre rattling" Bryan.

 

[mespock]

Oh please. Bryan, you CANT be this nieve.

When a President turns to the military and says "Give me plans for military options" - the military draws up different sets of plans for different kinds of action and nucular is almost aloways on that list. You think GW doesnt have nucular plans on his desk right now for the dropping of nuclear weapons on N Korea, Iran, Iraq and other countries?

It doesnt mean he is planning such action - its jsut one of a dozen military options at his disposal.

This is called taking a routine thing every President has - and twisting it around until its useful for an attack against the person you want to attack. As far as the disinformation, please. You think its policy to be honest about where our nuclear weapons are or arent? Call him a liar for that - go ahead.

Think about something Bryan. After the election I said GW is our President and we need to be one country again. Why is it that none ofus left wingers have been taking pot shots at him since the election, but you continue to do so?

Who is causing the division here?

:iconcur:

The Left and Right better become the middle where 68% of the population stands with 34% leaning a little Left and 34% leaning a little Right.

We don't want a Liberal or Conservative Government we want the middle!

We like to hold back on the breaks and we like to hit the gas when needed.

That’s America – our politicians have tried to split this country with all of the Election BS. We need to come together or we will not survive as the world leader.

“A house divided amongst itself will fall”

By the way Bryan a ticket doing 124 mph would be considered being Liberal LOL not conservative. But boy it's sure fun to be liberal on that gas peddle LOL :N

 

[MonsterMark]

It's called "sabre rattling" Bryan.

Exactly. That is all the left does. Sabre rattle. That is the problem. They never mean what they say. The world has figured that out. The right on the other hand, does what it says it is going to do and the world is quickly figuring out that they better toe the line or they will have REAL problems.

Actions, not threats, will make this country safer.

Joey, I just needed to point out how hypocritical you guys are when attacking Bush for taking action against Saddam. Saddam ignored 17 sanctions over 10 years. He also had the weapons to deliver to our enemies, and the rest of the world agreed.

If Bush would have done nothing and we had even had the smallest attack here, you guys would be crawling the walls. And if they had used some of the explosives like the DMX material, I wouldn't be able to hear myself think. All I would hear is why didn't we go in and take the stuff from Saddam. I wouldn't mind having a discussion with you guys if you didn't always try to have it both ways.

 

[Joeychgo]

He also had the weapons to deliver to our enemiesQUOTE]


And those weapons of mass destruction are where now? Hmmm? Care to explain why there have been NONE located? Care to explain that we havent found any empty storage or manufacturing facilities for these weapons? (they leave identifiable traces - chemical traces, etc)

Care to explain why several members of GW's senior staff, including Colin Powell and Connie Rice, back in 2001 made statements claiming Iraq was no threat and that our sanctions kept them from rebuilding their Army?

Tony Blair apologized to his country for the mistaken intelligence. GW cant seem to be man enough to do that.

 

[Kbob]

Tony Blair apologized to his country for the mistaken intelligence. GW cant seem to be man enough to do that.

I think that is fair, expecially if an apology will placate some.

 

[MonsterMark]

And those weapons of mass destruction are where now?

Syria, Lebanon, Iran. For starters.

Iraq was no threat and that our sanctions kept them from rebuilding their Army?

If he had no weapons, why are we busy destroying thousands of tons of munitions.

Tony Blair apologized to his country for the mistaken intelligence. GW cant seem to be man enough to do that.

I don't want Bush to apologize for anything. He wasn't wrong to take action.

Maybe WE as a country and the world community were wrong in their assumptions, but I don't hear the rest of the world apologizing.

I haven't heard Hillary apologize. I haven't heard Kerry, or Gore, or Clinton, or Pelozi apologizing. Let's start there and work our way up to the President, shall we.

 

[Joeychgo]

Syria, Lebanon, Iran. For starters.

Prove it. And, if true - why havent we attacked those countries??

If he had no weapons, why are we busy destroying thousands of tons of munitions.

not of WMD - the big reason we went to war remember? all thouse chemical munitions, biological weapons, and the nuclear program. NOTHING has been found. NOTHING - not a TRACE. WHY??????

 

[Joeychgo]

Syria, Lebanon, Iran. For starters.

Prove it. And, if true - why havent we attacked those countries??

If he had no weapons, why are we busy destroying thousands of tons of munitions.

not of WMD - the big reason we went to war remember? all thouse chemical munitions, biological weapons, and the nuclear program. NOTHING has been found. NOTHING - not a TRACE. WHY??????

 

[MonsterMark]

NOTHING has been found. NOTHING - not a TRACE. WHY??????

I don't know about you, but if that is the case, we should all be sleeping a little better with that info.

Don't make me replace the picture below with a pic of yours.:gr_devil:

 

[Joeychgo]

Sleeping better? Why? Because we attacked a country based upon our President's claim that these weapons existed and the weapons werent there?

How many of our soldiers have died in iraq? To accomplish what again? Oh yeah - stop the madman Saddam - I guess from thowing sand and camel dung at us.

 

[raVeneyes]

I don't know about you, but if that is the case, we should all be sleeping a little better with that info.

Sure it makes me sleep a lot better knowing that we gave the entire middle eastern community years of fodder for thier anti-America rhetoric. It also makes me sleep better knowing that we've now invaded a soverign nation in recent history that was not attacking us, justifying and bringing creedence to the military methods of the jihadists...oh yeah...getting groggy just thinking about it...like a big warm blanket those thoughts...</sarcasm>

 

[Kbob]

Oh how I long for the comfortable sleep I enjoyed on the night of 9/10/01. (sarcasm)

 

[MonsterMark]

Oh how I long for the comfortable sleep I enjoyed on the night of 9/10/01. (sarcasm)

I like the sig Kbob. Nice.

Listen guys. You have to give up on your mantra about the war being in the wrong place, at the wrong time, for the wrong reason. Turn off your TV. We were more than justified going into Iraq.

Please read the UN charter and then read the Iraqi resolutions agreed to by the Iraqi people after the '91 war. We did not need any other reason to invade Iraq other than the fact that they had ignored every sanction placed against them that they had agreed to when they SURRENDERED in the 1st Gulf War.


Man , oh man, oh man. Your going to get your asses kicked again in the next election unless you figure out the U.S., as the sole super-power, is responsible for spreading peace and prosperity throughout the world. It is our destiny. The world will not survive unless we succeed in our mission.

 

[pepperman]

:iconcur:

 

[raVeneyes]

Listen guys. You have to give up on your mantra about the war being in the wrong place, at the wrong time, for the wrong reason.

Why should we give up on the facts and the truth?

 

[barry2952]

Bryan,

How many deaths over how many years are acceptable? Do we get to 54,000, like Vietnam, before we pull the plug? Is that the magic number?

 

[MonsterMark]

The next attack on our soil will make 54,000 look like a decimal point.

You fight a war to win it. No matter what the cost, because losing is not an option.

Obviously your not bothered with the fact that we lost over 4,000 (innocent)people on 9/11, so why are you bothered by losing 1200 military lives, lives that have helped to free 50,000,000 people from savage bondage?

 

[raVeneyes]

You fight a war to win it. No matter what the cost, because losing is not an option.

Obviously your not bothered with the fact that we lost over 4,000 (innocent)people on 9/11, so why are you bothered by losing 1200 military lives, lives that have helped to free 50,000,000 people from savage bondage?

One more time for everybody:

September 11, 2001 ≠ Iraq

Yes, in fact, 2,752 people died on 9/11 in the World Trade Center attack.

Yes it is a fact that well over 1,000 U.S. military have been lost to the war in Iraq (over 10% of the fighting force sent there).

Yes we have 'liberated' 24,683,313 people (July 2003 estimate of Iraq's population).

No they weren't in savage bondage...these people were conducting as normal a life as those in any country under siege by the rest of the world. If you wonder what I mean by that, look at Cuba. The government isn't making it's people slaves, but it doesn't give any money to the population either...there are no social programs in states that have no money.

You fight a war to win it? Define win... How do you 'win' when the people don't want you there... What good is setting up a democracy when the people would just vote to be under the rule of a strong military leader?

The facts are that this war is not a mandate from the concience of the world nor a wish of the people of this country...it's a whim of the leader.

 

[Kbob]

One more time for everybody:

September 11, 2001 ≠ Iraq

In a similar fashion, December 7, 1941 ≠ Germany. I do understand your point and it is something to consider, but I'm not sure you see the other side.

Yes it is a fact that well over 1,000 U.S. military have been lost to the war in Iraq (over 10% of the fighting force sent there).

0.10 / 1000 = 10,000. We've had well over 100,000 military personnel there, and I would venture to say the percentage is closer to 0.5%.

Yes we have 'liberated' 24,683,313 people (July 2003 estimate of Iraq's population).

I think Bryan was including Afghanistan in his 50 million number.

No they weren't in savage bondage...these people were conducting as normal a life as those in any country under siege by the rest of the world. If you wonder what I mean by that, look at Cuba. The government isn't making it's people slaves, but it doesn't give any money to the population either...there are no social programs in states that have no money..

You can't be serious. I will concede the fact that the jury is still out on whether or not Bush's approach to fighting terrorism is correct, especially in Iraq. But to portray the rule in Iraq or Afghanistan pre-9/11 as anything other than brutal is not based in reality.

The facts are that this war is not a mandate from the concience of the world nor a wish of the people of this country...it's a whim of the leader.

I respect your opinion, but I question your facts.

 

[MonsterMark]

Al Queda is attempting to bring in nukes and other WMD into Mexico in bits and pieces and then transport them across the border to be assembled and used. Osama has received permission to use nukes now that he has received permission from a cleric in Saudi Arabia.

The clock is ticking. TICK, TICK, TICK, TICK. Sleep well. BTW,


Do you think you live in a city that is not a target. Is that why you are not afraid?

Do you feel lucky punk? Well, do ya? Is that it?

It's coming down to kill or be killed. Time to take sides and make a stand.

What's it going to be?
A) Keep your head buried in the sand and hope the bad guys go away.
B) Hunt them down one by one and pull the trigger.
C) There is no option C.

Nighty nite.

Sleep tight. Don't let the terrorists bite.

 

[raVeneyes]

In a similar fashion, December 7, 1941 ? Germany. I do understand your point and it is something to consider, but I'm not sure you see the other side.

I'm more than happy to conceed there's another side to this... I'm just saying the other side is missing the target wildly...I'm going to have another reply that will explain that...

0.10 / 1000 = 10,000. We've had well over 100,000 military personnel there, and I would venture to say the percentage is closer to 0.5%.

The 10% casualty rate info comes from an article on Iraq casualties.

More accurate data can be obtained from http://icasualties.org/ which lists 1332 as the total death count 1032 of those from hostile fire.

An additonal 10,000 have been wounded of less than 160,000 (total coalition forces)

I think Bryan was including Afghanistan in his 50 million number.

Afghanistan has an estimated population of 28,513,677 so logically yes..

You can't be serious. I will concede the fact that the jury is still out on whether or not Bush's approach to fighting terrorism is correct, especially in Iraq. But to portray the rule in Iraq or Afghanistan pre-9/11 as anything other than brutal is not based in reality.

As far as Afghanistan is concerned I would never argue the rule was anything less than brutal.

Iraq however is a seperate story...much of the rule is as the people wanted it there...a strong military leader guiding them through a troubled time (in thier eyes). The only 'attrocities' were a symptom of the fact that the entire world was not allowing any food, or money in to the country.

I respect your opinion, but I question your facts.

That's fine...question them if you'd like, but I did look them up...

 

[raVeneyes]

Here is where you're wildly missing the point...let's go section by section:

Al Queda is attempting to bring in nukes and other WMD into Mexico in bits and pieces and then transport them across the border to be assembled and used. Osama has received permission to use nukes now that he has received permission from a cleric in Saudi Arabia.

1. Where are they going to get 'nukes'? Nowhere, anyone who has them is keeping them because the race is on again. The only people that have enough money to buy a 'nuke' are large industrial countries.

2. Where do you think they're going to obtain 'WMD'...Weapons of mass destruction...let's stop abbriviating for no reason...? Weapons of mass destruction as defined in modern times are either nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons capeable of killing a large ammount of people at a time. These weapons, though from realtively logical processes for the most part, are very difficult to handle, transport, create, or 'weaponize'. You can't just set up a lab in an appartment in tiajuana and produce an anthrax that can be easily spread across a city....you also can't expect to contain weapons grade mustard gas in a jelly jar. You're going to have losses in personel if you try to make this stuff yourself, and you're going to have a hard time crossing a border with a container of it, so the only logical way to attack would be to obtain these things inside the country you want to attack. Either that or attack a border.

The clock is ticking. TICK, TICK, TICK, TICK. Sleep well. BTW,

Do you think you live in a city that is not a target. Is that why you are not afraid?

Do you feel lucky punk? Well, do ya? Is that it?

There is no ticking clock, there are no boogie men under my bed, I am no longer a child frightened by lightning...the lightning strikes what is tallest on the field and I'm not about to hold a lightning rod to attract it.

It's coming down to kill or be killed. Time to take sides and make a stand.

Are you really that arrogant and self important? That's really sad...

It's not 'kill or be killed'...that's the thinking that got us in to this situation in the first place. That's why we're still in this mess.

If you knew your own history you'd know why we're here...and plain and simple it's the fight over Jerusalem and Israel/Jordan. The US and NATO were the biggest supporters of the Jewish state and Islamic fundamentalists have long memories...we may have forgotten our role in causing the conflict, but the combatants have not.

So let's stop training fringe elements in other countries to fight our wars for us clandestinely (Al Quieda is a CIA op gone horribly horribly wrong). Let's stop supporting hate groups and terrorists ourselves (Fundamentalist governmental elements in the Jewish state are just as bad as fundamentalists in the islamic state, but we're not fighting them? Why not oh wise one?). Let's not expect that we're going to be forgiven our fathers sins. We've inherited this nice big hot potato, and we don't have anyone left to throw it to anymore.

What's it going to be?
A) Keep your head buried in the sand and hope the bad guys go away.
B) Hunt them down one by one and pull the trigger.
C) There is no option C.

What's it going to be?
- The bad guys aren't going to go away...they'll still be fighting this long after they've brought down the world around them
- Hunt who down exactly? How many slain is enough? Where do we draw the line between a 'bad guy' and someone who is just avenging thier own war dead like we are? When does the cycle stop?
- There is an option C...that option is much more difficult and demanding than either of the other options you've presented, and maybe that's because it's the only one that would work. The only real option is to stop the cycle by admiting we're just as wrong as the 'bad guys' and finding a peacful plan for the middle east.

Nighty nite.

Sleep tight. Don't let the terrorists bite.

Terrorists don't bite, they blow stuff up. Hopefully they'll stop blowing stuff up around the corner from me...and maybe just maybe you'll pull your head out of the sand and realize that the bombs exploding around the corner weren't put there without your help.

 

[MonsterMark]

Where are they going to get 'nukes'? Nowhere, anyone who has them is keeping them because the race is on again. The only people that have enough money to buy a 'nuke' are large industrial countries.

Russia, Pakistan, India, France, China, N. Korea, Iran, Iraq. Nukes are for sale. The IAEA in conjunction with the UN couldn't even protect "explosives", much less monitor and protect all nuclear weapons facilities around the world. Your, "where are they going to get 'nukes'?" was one of the silliest comments I have heard. The answer, from anywhere.

2. Where do you think they're going to obtain 'WMD'...Weapons of mass destruction...let's stop abbriviating for no reason...? Weapons of mass destruction as defined in modern times are either nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons capeable of killing a large ammount of people at a time. These weapons, though from realtively logical processes for the most part, are very difficult to handle, transport, create, or 'weaponize'. You can't just set up a lab in an appartment in tiajuana and produce an anthrax that can be easily spread across a city....you also can't expect to contain weapons grade mustard gas in a jelly jar. You're going to have losses in personel if you try to make this stuff yourself, and you're going to have a hard time crossing a border with a container of it, so the only logical way to attack would be to obtain these things inside the country you want to attack. Either that or attack a border.

Wrong again. As Saddam proved, all you need is a well equipped trailer parked in the middle of the desert and your in business. WMD are becoming more and more accesssible. It is possible and quite frankly, easy to build a dirty bomb. The plans are on the internet now and a 14 year old United States kid built one (radioactive) by himself.

There is no ticking clock, there are no boogie men under my bed, I am no longer a child frightened by lightning...the lightning strikes what is tallest on the field and I'm not about to hold a lightning rod to attract it.

The United States IS the tallest building in the world. And to prove it, the terrorists knocked down the 2nd tallest (2 of them, in fact). Now they want to knock down the rest. You should be afraid, very afraid. Fear is good. It is what keeps oneself mentally alert and on guard. We need to be afraid so we make sure we are alert.

Are you really that arrogant and self important? That's really sad...

Yes I am! Haven't you read my political posts?

I have to be right up there at the top. I think it comes from my failings of being correct almost all of the time.

It is a curse I have had to live with most of my life. I am not book smart, just street smart and I trust my instincts implicitly. And my instincts tell me we are in grave danger unless we ratchet up the pressure on these guys. Your plan of appeasement is a failed strategy and one that we can ill afford to 'test' again. We have travelled down that road in the past and it leads to a dead end(ing for all of us).

It's not 'kill or be killed'...that's the thinking that got us in to this situation in the first place. That's why we're still in this mess.

Do you really think if we went away, they would stop? We should turn over 1/2 of the world's oil so that Islam and the radicals running it could use that wealth and power to bring the U.S. and the rest of the free world to our knees! You think the world is messed up now, wait till you see what happens when the bad guys get the upper hand.

If you knew your own history you'd know why we're here...and plain and simple it's the fight over Jerusalem and Israel/Jordan. The US and NATO were the biggest supporters of the Jewish state and Islamic fundamentalists have long memories...we may have forgotten our role in causing the conflict, but the combatants have not.

We're there because of oil, plain and simple. See, I said it. OIL? Even I can see that. If we happen to help out some people in the meantime gain their freedom, bingo, bonus time. A stong and democratic middle east is key to peace in the world. They have been fighting for 2000 years. We have only been trying to fix it for about 35 years. Give us another 15 and we'll see where we are.

So let's stop training fringe elements in other countries to fight our wars for us clandestinely (Al Quieda is a CIA op gone horribly horribly wrong).

Did you grab that line from John kerry's website regarding outsourcing Bin Laden? Of course you have to train fringe elements in other countries to help you fight to make change. I don't happen to be Arab and all the plastic surgery and makeup in the world ain't gonna change that fact.

Hunt who down exactly? How many slain is enough? Where do we draw the line between a 'bad guy' and someone who is just avenging thier own war dead like we are? When does the cycle stop?

Any country or group of people that harbor terrorists seeking to do harm to innocent people. There will be enough slain when there are no more bad guys. If that is 1000 or 100,000,000, so be it. The cycle stops when they say 'Uncle'.

- There is an option C...that option is much more difficult and demanding than either of the other options you've presented, and maybe that's because it's the only one that would work. The only real option is to stop the cycle by admiting we're just as wrong as the 'bad guys' and finding a peacful plan for the middle east.

You have to read your own writings. They will never stop as long as the seeds of terrorism continue to be planted. Only freedom and democracy can break the cycle. Show me a trouble spot in the world, and I will show you a place where freedom and democracy are not firmly rooted.

Terrorists don't bite, they blow stuff up.

Couldn't have said it better myself. That is in essence what and who they are, which is exactly why they must be stopped or killed. They will not stop. Ever. And if we back off and give them a chance to recover, it's lights out for us.

It's a whole new world out there and 9/11 should have taught us one very important lesson. We are no longer safe on our own soil. And never will be again. If we want to remain free, we will have to keep on fighting the good fight for the sake of all of mankind.