I am outraged. Blah, blah, blah.

[Kbob]

I'm more than happy to conceed there's another side to this... I'm just saying the other side is missing the target wildly...I'm going to have another reply that will explain that...

I've read your other post. I disagree with your opinion that nukes cannot be obtained by terrorist organizations. I believe that is a naive assumption.

The 10% casualty rate info comes from an article on Iraq casualties.

I'm still scratching my head about that 10% number. Is that 10% of actual combat units that have been wounded? And if wounded, are we talking about a significant number of Kerry-type of wounds? In other words, not that serious. Not to belittle the sacrifices our military have made, I'm just trying to clarify the number.

Iraq however is a seperate story...much of the rule is as the people wanted it there...a strong military leader guiding them through a troubled time (in thier eyes). The only 'attrocities' were a symptom of the fact that the entire world was not allowing any food, or money in to the country.

Yeah, sure. And the holocaust didn't really happen, either.

 

[raVeneyes]

Russia, Pakistan, India, France, China, N. Korea, Iran, Iraq. Nukes are for sale. The IAEA in conjunction with the UN couldn't even protect "explosives", much less monitor and protect all nuclear weapons facilities around the world. Your, "where are they going to get 'nukes'?" was one of the silliest comments I have heard. The answer, from anywhere.

'Nukes' aren't for sale...that's what the paranoia of the movie world and right wing government would have you believe, but they aren't. How can I say that so confidently? Well lets take a little look at the past again:

-Firstly, no one ever buys a 'nuke'...nuclear weapons are made, and they're made by people a lot smarter than high school kids in garages. The people and what's in thier heads are what is bought and sold by the highest bidder on the world market, and the only people to successfully buy a nuclear scientist in the past 20 years have been the Pakistan government.

-Though many countries have tried to develop nuclear weapons it's a lot harder than it at first seems...the United states, even though we had the unlimited resources of the World War I and II economies, took over 15 years to develop the first nuclear bomb...and we had within our borders the top scientific minds on the subject.

Wrong again. As Saddam proved, all you need is a well equipped trailer parked in the middle of the desert and your in business. WMD are becoming more and more accesssible. It is possible and quite frankly, easy to build a dirty bomb. The plans are on the internet now and a 14 year old United States kid built one (radioactive) by himself.

No you're wrong again...here's where you're just towing a line and talking out your tail pipe...

How did Saddam prove that you can set up a weapons program? LOL I think he actually proved that it's really expensive to set up a weapons program since with the resources of an entire COUNTRY at his disposal he wasn't able to...or did you forget, there were NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION NOR ANY ATTEMPT TO BUILD ANY FOUND IN IRAQ AFTER WE INVADED THEM. Why don't you record that and play it back for yourself because you've obviously forgotten it again.

Also that 'dirty bomb' that kid built...it didn't have the ability to yeild a nuclear explosion...they tested it.

Weapons of mass destruction will always have the same problems associated with thier construction...cost of equpiment to manufacture them, cost of manpower associated with making them, cost in time needed to 'weaponize' them. It's a daunting task for even a whole country...four guys in a trailer are not going to make thier own.

The United States IS the tallest building in the world. And to prove it, the terrorists knocked down the 2nd tallest (2 of them, in fact). Now they want to knock down the rest. You should be afraid, very afraid. Fear is good. It is what keeps oneself mentally alert and on guard. We need to be afraid so we make sure we are alert.

Ahhh...a good ol dose of self imprtantce.

To the guys in the middle east we're a bunch of backwards apes, just throwing money and time at thier advisaries. We're not the tallest thing on the playing field from thier vantage point...that would be israel, hence why a bomb goes off there at least once a week. To the guys in the middle east we're just a pain in the ass.

Yes I am! Haven't you read my political posts?

I have to be right up there at the top. I think it comes from my failings of being correct almost all of the time.

It is a curse I have had to live with most of my life. I am not book smart, just street smart and I trust my instincts implicitly. And my instincts tell me we are in grave danger unless we ratchet up the pressure on these guys. Your plan of appeasement is a failed strategy and one that we can ill afford to 'test' again. We have travelled down that road in the past and it leads to a dead end(ing for all of us).

First off, you're rarely correct. Secondly you're not even street smart, because anyone with half an hour on the streets can tell you that you don't try to bully the bully, you try to out think him.

I'm glad you trust your instincts, but it is that caveman mentality of kill or be killed that got us to where we are...how do you think that terrorists opperate?

Also, it's not 'my' plan of appeasment, nor is it a failed strategy. It's called a peace process, and it's one that was working until someone threw a monkey in the works. It's not something we would have to 'test' it is something we already know works. We HAVE travelled that road, and the only problem with it was that we didn't pay attention. You can't expect that trying to change a society isn't going to ruffle a few feathers, you just have to be paying attention when those feathers get ruffled.

Do you really think if we went away, they would stop? We should turn over 1/2 of the world's oil so that Islam and the radicals running it could use that wealth and power to bring the U.S. and the rest of the free world to our knees! You think the world is messed up now, wait till you see what happens when the bad guys get the upper hand.

Do you really think that they don't already own the world's oil???

Man you are so lost in this thing we call a global economy.

Get a clue...the world's largest oil field rests squarely under the piece of dirt we call Saudi Arabia. The world's second largest supply of oil is under a rock called Siberia. We pay through the nose to get that oil, and we will keep paying the same people however much money they want to collect because of a little thing called OPEC. Do some research, read up and get a clue...you already proved you don't know how the middle east works, and you obviously have no idea how the oil economy works.

Bad guys???? ROFLMAO BAD GUYS? This isn't Cowboys and Indians...this isn't the crusades. There are no good guys in this scenario, we're all bad guys, just some of us are smarter than others.

We're there because of oil, plain and simple. See, I said it. OIL? Even I can see that. If we happen to help out some people in the meantime gain their freedom, bingo, bonus time. A stong and democratic middle east is key to peace in the world. They have been fighting for 2000 years. We have only been trying to fix it for about 35 years. Give us another 15 and we'll see where we are.

Actually Oil is what they'd like you to think it's about...makes the world so much simpler if it was...but I have the feeling that since the bs they feed the islamic fundamentalists is the same as the bs they feed us (see the graffiti on the walls in Iraq, it says blood for oil...see same bs) I just know it's all bs. If we wanted oil from Iraq, why didn't we just quietly take over thier government...no shots were needed...we could have trained someone over there, just like Bin Laden

Did you grab that line from John kerry's website regarding outsourcing Bin Laden? Of course you have to train fringe elements in other countries to help you fight to make change. I don't happen to be Arab and all the plastic surgery and makeup in the world ain't gonna change that fact.

No...as a matter of fact the information on Al Quieda being a CIA op has been in the news since september 11th many many times.

You don't even realize why we created Al Quieda do you?

Learn your history...what are you 15? 20? Learn what happened and why it happened before you toss your wieghty oppinion in on this subject.

Any country or group of people that harbor terrorists seeking to do harm to innocent people. There will be enough slain when there are no more bad guys. If that is 1000 or 100,000,000, so be it. The cycle stops when they say 'Uncle'.

"Any country or group of people that harbor terrorists" ... ROFLMAO again!

Do you listen to loops of President Bush while you sleep?

Well instead of repeating it why don't you think about that for a second...we, the people of the United States of America, are going to kill everyone in any country or any group that harbors terrorists. Well LOOSE the 'Nukes' now buddy, cause I'll let you in on a little secret. We harbor and train terrorists right here in the US...almost every country in the world harbors terrorists...that's why they're so effective, they flow to where they are out of trouble, they avoid detection, and they do it based on tactics we the people of the United States of America created in the Vietnam war.

You have to read your own writings. They will never stop as long as the seeds of terrorism continue to be planted. Only freedom and democracy can break the cycle. Show me a trouble spot in the world, and I will show you a place where freedom and democracy are not firmly rooted.

No, you have to read my writings without adding your own slant. They will never stop.

That's all.

They will never stop.

The "seeds of terrorism" for these people are thier dying parents and children...thier lost brothers and friends...the longer the killing goes on the more people get pissed off. "Freedom and democracy" are a farse to these people and they don't want it. This little speech from the White House writing core is designed to drum up nationalistic feelings, but it makes no sense.

Let me introduce you to a few 'troble spots' in the world. Shake hands with New York City, still leading the United States in murders. And give a warm welcome to Oklahoma with the most homeless and starving children. Oh, don't like focusing on the home front? Let me introduce you to Columbia, where the 'democratic' governement we set up leads the world in murders per capita. Or say hi to Free and Democratic South Africa, number two. And a quick nod to Jamaica, number three in murders per capita. I also have a friend from 'Down Unda' for you to meet, here's Austrailia with the third largest national debt per person. Over here, oh well you already met him but, here's the good ol USA with the world's highest divorce rate...don't mind the booze, he's just consoling his friends, his long time best bud Puerto Rico with the second highest divorce rate, and his new democratic buddy Russia with the third. Oh that guy over there, USA is just handing him the most money out of any country in the world (a little under 5 times as much as the next country) for his military. But really, he's hanging in there, there's no trouble.

It's a whole new world out there and 9/11 should have taught us one very important lesson. We are no longer safe on our own soil. And never will be again. If we want to remain free, we will have to keep on fighting the good fight for the sake of all of mankind.

It's the same world man, we just got our nose bloodied in the street brawl we've been a part of for a long time. And now that we've taken to actually punching and kicking for ourselves, instead of passing knives and clubs to the combatants, there's really no easy way to extricate ourself from it...but being the world's largest millitary and such I'm sure we'll find a way... LOL...I'm sure we'll find a way...

 

[raVeneyes]

I've read your other post. I disagree with your opinion that nukes cannot be obtained by terrorist organizations. I believe that is a naive assumption.

Ok, that's fair...you disagree and think it's naive to assume nuclear weapons can't be obtained...I think it's naive to think nuclear weapons are available at the local 7-eleven. We differ on that and I'm sure you have your logical reasons just like I do, so please take the time to explain them...as I've explained mine.

I'm still scratching my head about that 10% number. Is that 10% of actual combat units that have been wounded? And if wounded, are we talking about a significant number of Kerry-type of wounds? In other words, not that serious. Not to belittle the sacrifices our military have made, I'm just trying to clarify the number.

I'm really not sure on that one...I'm guessing wounded means they were taken out of combat...and the wounds that will take someone out of combat have changed a bit since the Civil war, but the number is from the DOD, so I'm guessing they were all pretty serious wounds.

Yeah, sure. And the holocaust didn't really happen, either.

Ok, here's how I'm drawing a line between countries that have atrocities and countries that don't...just look at how many people try to leave per year. In the case of Afghanistan there was a mass exidous of people, so yeah they were in pretty rough shape to want to leave home. In the case of Iraq...no one really tried to leave. There weren't Iraqi refugees in Iran and Kuwait every month, so I have to assume that conditions weren't so bad that the people never thought it would be better.

I may be wrong, but that's just how I'm figuring it...if there's a better barometer I'd love to find one.

 

[Kbob]

Ok, that's fair...you disagree and think it's naive to assume nuclear weapons can't be obtained...I think it's naive to think nuclear weapons are available at the local 7-eleven. We differ on that and I'm sure you have your logical reasons just like I do, so please take the time to explain them...as I've explained mine.

A well-funded, well-organized terrorist entity/network may be able to obtain a nuclear device from rogue states. The chances of that happening at this time are miniscule for a couple of reasons. First, the U.S. has disrupted their organization and funds, thus minimizing the damage that they may have otherwise been able to inflict. Also, the political pressure brought to bear by the U.S. on states such as Iran, Libya, Pakistan and North Korea in the wake of 9/11 has further alienated terrorism in general and reduced the threat of nuclear proliferation (IMO). That is why I am a proponent of finishing what has been started. To stop now would reverse this trend.

 

[barry2952]

My $.02

As an American of Jewish decent I have a lot of trouble identifying with Israel. However, it is a legitimate state started as a Jewish homeland for those displaced by intolerance around the world.

I would agree with Ranveneyes that this is all about Holy dirt. Oil is really secondary. Oil may be what funds the conflict but the real story is about real estate.

Previous statements made about fundamentalists are true for all societies. I see no difference between a Jewish, Muslim or Christian nutcase that thinks that his is the one true religion that worships the one true God. How rediculous is that?

A previous statement mocking "The Christians are coming, the Christians are coming!" scares me because the writer fails to comprehend the historical significance of the Crusades. Much of the hatred of Christianity stems from those atrocities.

I would have to concur with Raveneyes again that the reason we went into Iraq was that Saddam posessed weapons of mass destruction and that he was poised to give them to anyone that would harm the US. We have found no weapons of mass destruction, period. I will not go as far as to say that GWB lied to us but I will say that he needs to take responsibility for taking action on significantly unreliable information.

The resignation of so many high ranking Cabinet members is a bit unusual for an incumbent President, don't you think? Powell and Abraham today, who's next?

 

[MonsterMark]

I would have to concur with Raveneyes again that the reason we went into Iraq was that Saddam posessed weapons of mass destruction and that he was poised to give them to anyone that would harm the US. We have found no weapons of mass destruction, period. I will not go as far as to say that GWB lied to us but I will say that he needs to take responsibility for taking action on significantly unreliable information.

I don't think Bush has to take responsibility for bad intel, if there was bad intel. That blame lies with the worldwide intelligence community and with the many nations that held the same beliefs. You're only blaming Bush because he was the only guy, unlike France, Germany, Russia that wasn't on the take. So I think he deserves credit for acting on behalf of the free world.

The resignation of so many high ranking Cabinet members is a bit unusual for an incumbent President, don't you think? Powell and Abraham today, who's next?

Not really. In fact, Bush had (I believe)the highest percentage of cabinet members that served out a full term. They were very loyal despite some very trying times. It is even more common to have a shuffling of the deck after a 1st term. Nothing out of the ordinary compared to previous administrations.

 

[barry2952]

So now it's an international conspiracy to make GWB look bad. How lame.

Bryan, In your six businesses, where does the buck stop? Don't you lose customers when you blame your failings on your employees? You seem like the type that would simply acknowledge mistakes, correct them, and move forward. GWB has lost customers, which has cause the great divide.

 

[Kbob]

A previous statement mocking "The Christians are coming, the Christians are coming!" scares me because the writer fails to comprehend the historical significance of the Crusades. Much of the hatred of Christianity stems from those atrocities.

That statement was made because it's funny to me that a lot of people don't truly understand most Christians. They blanketly portray us as "nutcases" who are intolerant, when the intolerance is clearly biased against Christianity in the politically correct world. And make no mistake, I completely comprehend the historical significance of the Crusades. And dismissing all major religions as ridiculous is quite an intolerant thing to say.

The resignation of so many high ranking Cabinet members is a bit unusual for an incumbent President, don't you think? Powell and Abraham today, who's next?

And I'm the one accused of failing to comprehend historical significance?

 

[barry2952]

I'm sorry if I've offended you with my "nutcase" remark. You should reread it. You will see that I am referring only to fundamentalists, in all religeons.

Can you say that you truly believe that yours is the only one and true God? If this is true, one could then imply that you would think that the rest of the world is wrong in their beliefs. Talk about intolerance.

 

[Kbob]

I'm sorry if I've offended you with my "nutcase" remark. You should reread it. You will see that I am referring only to fundamentalists, in all religeons.

Can you say that you truly believe that yours is the only one and true God? If this is true, one could then imply that you would think that the rest of the world is wrong in their beliefs. Talk about intolerance.

I'm not biting, but I am in awe of your hypocrisy.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

It's difficult but......

I didn't ask for this war.
I didn't support it.
I didn't support the president for getting us into it in the first place.
Certainly there are more important issues to be addressed throughout the world but,
However we voted, the majority of people backed the position of the current president, and voted him in for the next four years.
I may not like him or his policies but because he is the elected leader of the free world, I must respect the office and the policies that office puts forth.
My advice would be to stop bellieaching about Mr. Bush and get behind him.
Take the next four years and work for change, if that's what you want.
Change only comes about when people get of their duff and get involved.
A few nights ago I saw a news item that really disturbed me.
It had to do with our southern borders and, the news that terriorist are trying to enter the country through Mexico with the intent of bringing in nucular weapons that would be assembled in this country and used against our citizens.
This is a scary sanario.
I imediately sent an email to my represenatives in the congress as well as the predident himself.
All we Americans should be extremely concerned with this news.
I want to see something done to safeguard our borders against this threat and I politely let these government officials know it.
I am just one small link in the cog.
If everyone sent emails like I did, perhaps something would be done to protect us instead of letting things be swept under the carpet.
If our represenatives and the president don't hear from us, then they have no way of knowing how we feel about issues. :invasion:

 

[Kbob]

If our represenatives and the president don't hear from us, then they have no way of knowing how we feel about issues.

Words of wisdom I need to heed more often.