Inventing Moderate Islam

shagdrum

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Inventing Moderate Islam
It can’t be done without confronting mainstream Islam and its sharia agenda.
by Andrew C. McCarthy

‘Secularism can never enjoy a general acceptance in an Islamic society.” The writer was not one of those sulfurous Islamophobes decried by CAIR and the professional Left. Quite the opposite: It was Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the Muslim Brotherhood’s spiritual guide and a favorite of the Saudi royal family. He made this assertion in his book, How the Imported Solutions Disastrously Affected Our Ummah, an excerpt of which was published by the Saudi Gazette just a couple of months ago.

This was Qaradawi the “progressive” Muslim intellectual, much loved by Georgetown University’s burgeoning Islamic-studies programs. Like Harvard, Georgetown has been purchased into submission by tens of millions of Saudi petrodollars. In its resulting ardor to put Americans at ease about Islam, the university somehow manages to look beyond Qaradawi’s fatwas calling for the killing of American troops in Iraq and for suicide bombings in Israel. Qaradawi, they tell us, is a “moderate.” In fact, as Robert Spencer quips, if you were to say Islam and secularism cannot co-exist, John Esposito, Georgetown’s apologist-in-chief, would call you an Islamophobe; but when Qaradawi says it, no problem — according to Esposito, he’s a “reformist.”

And he’s not just any reformist. Another Qaradawi fan, Feisal Rauf, the similarly “moderate” imam behind the Ground Zero mosque project, tells us Qaradawi is also “the most well-known legal authority in the whole Muslim world today.”

Rauf is undoubtedly right about that. So it is worth letting it sink in that this most influential of Islam’s voices, this promoter of the Islamic enclaves the Brotherhood is forging throughout the West, is convinced that Islamic societies can never accept secularism. After all, secularism is nothing less than the framework by which the West defends religious freedom but denies legal and political authority to religious creeds.

It is also worth understanding why Qaradawi says Islam and secularism cannot co-exist. The excerpt from his book continues:
As Islam is a comprehensive system of worship (Ibadah) and legislation (Shari’ah), the acceptance of secularism means abandonment of Shari’ah, a denial of the divine guidance and a rejection of Allah’s injunctions. It is indeed a false claim that Shari’ah is not proper to the requirements of the present age. The acceptance of a legislation formulated by humans means a preference of the humans’ limited knowledge and experiences to the divine guidance: “Say! Do you know better than Allah?” (Qur’an, 2:140) For this reason, the call for secularism among Muslims is atheism and a rejection of Islam. Its acceptance as a basis for rule in place of Shari’ah is downright apostasy.
Apostasy is an explosive accusation. On another occasion, Sheikh Qaradawi explained that “Muslim jurists are unanimous that apostates must be punished.” He further acknowledged that the consensus view of these jurists, including the principal schools of both Sunni and Shiite jurisprudence, is “that apostates must be executed.

Qaradawi’s own view is more nuanced, as he explained to the Egyptian press in 2005. This, I suppose, is where his vaunted reformist streak comes in. For private apostasy, in which a Muslim makes a secret, personal decision to renounce tenets of Islam and quietly goes his separate way without causing a stir, the sheikh believes ostracism by the Islamic community is a sufficient penalty, with the understanding that Allah will condemn the apostate to eternal damnation at the time of his choosing. For public apostasy, however, Qaradawi stands with the overwhelming weight of Islamic authority: “The punishment . . . is execution.”

The sad fact, the fact no one wants to deal with but which the Ground Zero mosque debate has forced to the fore, is that Qaradawi is a moderate. So is Feisal Rauf, who endorses the Qaradawi position — the mainstream Islamic position — that sharia is a nonnegotiable requirement. Rauf wins the coveted “moderate” designation because he strains, at least when speaking for Western consumption, to paper over the incompatibility between sharia societies and Western societies.

Qaradawi and Rauf are “moderates” because we’ve abandoned reason. Our opinion elites are happy to paper over the gulf between “reformist” Islam and the “reformist” approval of mass-murder attacks. That’s why it matters not a whit to them that Imam Rauf refuses to renounce Hamas: If you’re going to give a pass to Qaradawi, the guy who actively promotes Hamas terrorists, how can you complain about a guy who merely refuses to condemn the terrorists?

When we are rational, we have confidence in our own frame of reference. We judge what is moderate based on a detached, commonsense understanding of what “moderate” means. We’re not rigging the outcome; we just want to know where we stand.

If we were in that objective frame of mind, we would easily see that a freedom culture requires separation of the spiritual from the secular. We would also see that sharia — with dictates that contradict liberty and equality while sanctioning cruel punishments and holy war — is not moderate. Consequently, no one who advocates sharia can be a moderate, no matter how well-meaning he may be, no matter how heartfelt may be his conviction that this is God’s will, and no matter how much higher on the food chain he may be than Osama bin Laden.

Instead, abandoning reason, we have deep-sixed our own frame of reference and substituted mainstream Islam’s. If that backward compass is to be our guide, then sure, Qaradawi and Rauf are moderates. But know this: When you capitulate to the authority and influence of Qaradawi and Rauf, you kill meaningful Islamic reform.

There is no moderate Islam in the mainstream of Muslim life, not in the doctrinal sense. There are millions of moderate Muslims who crave reform. Yet the fact that they seek real reform, rather than what Georgetown is content to call reform, means they are trying to invent something that does not currently exist.

Real reform can also be found in some Muslim sects. The Ahmadi, for example, hold some unorthodox views and reject violent jihad. Witness what happens: They are brutally persecuted by Muslims in Pakistan, as well as in Indonesia and other purported hubs of moderation.

Meanwhile, individual Muslim reformers are branded apostates, meaning not only that they are discredited, but that their lives are threatened as well. The signal to other Muslims is clear: Follow the reformers and experience the same fury. As Qaradawi put it in the 2005 interview, public apostates are “the gravest danger” to Islamic society; therefore, Muslims must snuff them out, lest their reforms “spread like wildfire in a field of thorns.”

Today, “moderate Islam” is an illusion. There is hardly a spark, much less a wildfire. Making moderation real will take more than wishing upon a star. It calls for a gut check, a willingness to face down not just al-Qaeda but the Qaradawis and their sharia campaign. It means saying: Not here.
 
But shag - isn't that what eventually happened with Christianity - it took time and 'guts' for Luther to start the ball rolling, to create something that did not exist - and people were persecuted and killed for wanting to change Catholicism. The similarities are quite striking when you look at it. Will Muslims look back at this time and view it as the dark ages of Islam?
 
But shag - isn't that what eventually happened with Christianity - it took time and 'guts' for Luther to start the ball rolling, to create something that did not exist - and people were persecuted and killed for wanting to change Catholicism. The similarities are quite striking when you look at it. Will Muslims look back at this time and view it as the dark ages of Islam?

Christian doctrine never preached killing infidels or “that apostates must be executed.”

Ignoring that fact, as your observation does, misrepresents the issue and completely misses the argument being made by Mr. McCarthy.
 
Christian doctrine never preached killing infidels or “that apostates must be executed.”

But men who spoke for God - the popes sure did - 1538.

Pope Paul III declared all of England to be "apostate", that all Englishmen were slaves of the church, and launched a crusade to kill the English that didn't 'conform'. Didn't succeed, but he still tried.

And there are plenty of Bible verses that advocate killing non-believers or 'other' believers. One of my favs...

Deuteronomy 13:6-19

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you. If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

And I realize at least Foss will cry - old testament - but it is part of Christian doctrine - just like the old testament 10 (or 12 depending on your pov) commandments are part of Christian doctrine. Did we change at some point yes - but the old testament is as violent as the Qu'ran at points. However, we no longer embrace destroying cities because they believe differently than we do, but at one point we took our holiest book, and used it to defend our right to do exactly that.

Ignoring that fact, as your observation does, misrepresents the issue and completely misses the argument being made by Mr. McCarthy.

And what is that argument shag - that it will take brave people to change Islam? It took brave people to change Christianity - why can't brave people change Islam?

Today, “moderate Islam” is an illusion. There is hardly a spark, much less a wildfire. Making moderation real will take more than wishing upon a star. It calls for a gut check, a willingness to face down not just al-Qaeda but the Qaradawis and their sharia campaign. It means saying: Not here.
 
But men who spoke for God - the popes sure did - 1538.

Again, we can play the false comparison game all day. We only end up confusing the issue and getting nowhere. Man distorting religion is a different issue from what McCarthy is talking about.

Either way, I would think you would see this as all the more reason to keep religion separate from the state.

Islam is incompatible with the idea of separation of church and state and is incompatible with the principles laid out in the first Amendment. McCarthy's article makes this clear in quoting Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi:
As Islam is a comprehensive system of worship (Ibadah) and legislation (Shari’ah), the acceptance of secularism means abandonment of Shari’ah, a denial of the divine guidance and a rejection of Allah’s injunctions. It is indeed a false claim that Shari’ah is not proper to the requirements of the present age. The acceptance of a legislation formulated by humans means a preference of the humans’ limited knowledge and experiences to the divine guidance: “Say! Do you know better than Allah?” (Qur’an, 2:140) For this reason, the call for secularism among Muslims is atheism and a rejection of Islam. Its acceptance as a basis for rule in place of Shari’ah is downright apostasy.​
Here is this little gem from the good Sheikh as well:
Secularism can never enjoy a general acceptance in an Islamic society.​
Remember, under Shari'ah law, being labeled an apostate is a death sentence.

Can you see killing non-believers as somehow being compatible with the Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses of the First Amendment and the principles they entail?
 
Islam is incompatible with the idea of separation of church and state and is incompatible with the principles laid out in the first Amendment. McCarthy's article makes this clear in quoting Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi:
As Islam is a comprehensive system of worship (Ibadah) and legislation (Shari’ah), the acceptance of secularism means abandonment of Shari’ah, a denial of the divine guidance and a rejection of Allah’s injunctions. It is indeed a false claim that Shari’ah is not proper to the requirements of the present age. The acceptance of a legislation formulated by humans means a preference of the humans’ limited knowledge and experiences to the divine guidance: “Say! Do you know better than Allah?” (Qur’an, 2:140) For this reason, the call for secularism among Muslims is atheism and a rejection of Islam. Its acceptance as a basis for rule in place of Shari’ah is downright apostasy.​
Here is this little gem from the good Sheikh as well:
Secularism can never enjoy a general acceptance in an Islamic society.​
Remember, under Shari'ah law, being labeled an apostate is a death sentence.

Can you see killing non-believers as somehow being compatible with the Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses of the First Amendment and the principles they entail?

Islam as it stands now is incompatible with separation of church and state, just as Christianity was, for a long, long time incompatible. The head of the state was also the head of the church, within that state. Ask Henry VIII. Ask Louis X. Heck, Italy has been a theocracy by proxy forever.

I can't see killing non-believers as being compatible with anything. However Christians did it, and they used their holy book to justify it. It took time and brave individuals to alter the course that we were headed down. The 'church' fought as though its very existence would be in danger if the head of state wasn't also the leader of the church. The church leaders thought they needed to control everything. Eventually time passed, and so did this idea. Shag - the problems of changing Islam aren't really that much more complex than changing Christianity. Parts of the Qu'ran will have to be relegated to 'history' or 'an ancient way of doing things', much as we view the old testament. We wouldn't kill our brother for trying to talk us into becoming a Taoist monk, but that is what our old testament advocates, and tells us we must do.

We got beyond the violence in our religious past - beyond scripture that tells us we must kill others that are 'different' than we are.

Why can't this happen again?

And remember the Sheikh isn't Allah, you might want to go the Qu'ran to find the true words of Allah. Just as I knew by going to the Pope for reference, it wasn't holy scripture, but mere man that indicated that all of England should be labeled apostate.
 
Islam as it stands now is incompatible with separation of church and state, just as Christianity was, for a long, long time incompatible.

Again, all these false equivalences between Christianity and Islam only serve to distract from the issue and avoid confronting the issues McCarthy raises. Your continued use of them makes it appear that you are focused on agitating and subverting honest consideration of McCarthy's argument.

Christian doctrine never had to change to make it compatible with the idea of separation of church and state. In fact, religious tolerance here in American grew out of Christianity.

For Islam to be compatible with a free society, it cannot be Islam because, "Islam is a comprehensive system of worship (Ibadah) and legislation (Shari’ah)".

Weather or not Christianity was distorted to be a political system is irrelevant. and continued use of that red herring shows a profound lack of good faith in discussion.

Can you provide a substantive critique of the fact that "Islam is a comprehensive system of worship (Ibadah) and legislation (Shari’ah)" and is thus incompatible with a free society or can you only draw false equivalences and false dichotomies to downplay and avoid that fact?

Can you confront the argument that McCarthy is making?
 
Shag - first, lets check on what you know regarding Shari’ah -

Did you know that it came into being about 300 years after the death of Mohammad?

It was invented by man, not an enlightenment by a prophet.

Much as the Church created rules - such as buying your way into heaven (or out of hell), stoning witches, other stuff, that really didn't have a whole lot to do with 'Christ' Shari’ah was also a way of 'lording' over believers.

Shari'ah is also not enforced in Muslim countries upon non believers. In Saudi Arabia you, being a Christian, would be tried in a government court, not a religious court.

Many Islamic countries have a dual system - where Muslims can decide where they would want to be tried. If you want to take your family differences into Shari'ah court - you may, or you may have it tried in a government court.

During the middle ages the Church ruled the courts with a heavy hand. However, we got better.

Shari'ah is similar to the laws that the Church was enforcing during the middle ages. A 'church' thing and not a 'christian' thing. They were inseparable - how could you not have God in the courtroom. Just as Shari'ah is to some (once again, not all) Muslims - how can you not have religion and legislature together.

Christianity at one time was both in the court and in the sanctuary, just as Islam is today, in some countries.

However, it doesn't mean it can't change - we did. Shari'ah isn't the Qu'ran. Catholic edict in the middle ages wasn't the 'Bible'.
 
Foxpaws,

You raise some interesting points and concerns, but I don't know exactly where you are drawing your facts from. I think you may be giving the Catholic Church a little too much power in your historical analysis of the Middle Ages. The of 800-1500 is one in which the pope struggled against secular kings over power. In fact, the college of cardinals which elects the pope was created by the Catholic Church in order to keep the secular government from appointing the pope for itself.

Also, you sound as if Christianity has abandoned any kind of law outside the Bible - but this is not true. The Catholic Church uses canon law to guide its ecclesastical affairs. It is the oldest law code still in use today. The difference between canon law and sharia is that canon law was strictly used to govern the happenings in the church and did not pretend to be a civil law. It did not punish anyone for stealing or for committing adultery. That's what the civil courts were for and thus the Catholic Church did not "rule the courts with a heavy hand." Law has an important place in Christian history - both ecclesial law and civil law. Pope St. Victor I almost excommunicated half the Church in the second century - and ecclesial law has not gone away for the largest group of Christians in the modern era (i.e. the 1+ billion Catholics).

Furthermore, it is difficult to equate the Christian conception of scripture with Muslim conception of the Koran. Muslims believe the Koran was in the mind of God and that it is a direct copy word for word of what God has said. Christians believe God spoke through human authors and thus the Bible has historical grounding for a historical people. There can be no relegating certain passages of the Koran to history because of the fundamentalist understanding of the grounding for the Koran - which has always been present in Islamic thought.

To me it comes down to the Islamic understanding of God as pure will and absolute power. Everything that occurs in the universe is the direct work of Allah without any intermediary. There are no universal laws (e.g. the laws of physics) because Allah directly controls everything by His soveriegn power. "Islam" means submission to the power and will of Allah - and whatever He says goes. If tomorrow Allah says it's okay to kill civilians, then it is okay. The fact that sharia took time to develop doesn't mean anything for a Muslim because Allah is still at work through sharia and we can't question Him. In fact, in Islam there is no rational framework to justify anything and thus there is no basis for a truly free society.

In a religion where there is no freedom of inquiry, there can be no democracy. The opposite is true when it comes to Christianity - even in the Middle Ages. For a good book on this, check out "How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization" by Thomas E. Woods, Jr.
 
Fed, you're a voice of reason! I was all set to say some of the same sorts of things, but you've done it so well, I'll just applaud.

Welcome!

KS
 
Thanks cammerfe! I'm glad we see eye to eye on the need for reason to inform any kind of discussion regarding Islam versus Christianity. Religion is too often seen as merely subjective anyway - but when we reduce it to opinion then we throw out reasonable discussion along with it! The philosopher Kierkegaard said that faith begins where thinking stops and I can't disagree with him more. All religions need some sort of objective criteria in order to be attractive to man's intellectual sensibilities and we simply can't give Islam a free pass just because we risk being blown up by its terrorists.

I will say that one other thought crossed my mind about the Koran versus the Bible. For many people, Islam seems more similar to Christianity because their faith is either rooted in the Koran alone or in the Bible alone. Classical Christianity, however, was always rooted in the authority of the twelve Apostles and their direct successors: the bishops in union with the pope. When theological questions arose for Christians, the bishops would gather to render a decision as was the custom from the Apostles (see Acts of the Apostles, chapter 15). Islam has no authoritative system for peaceful resolution like this and when early theological disputes came up, the two sides often met each other with bloody violence and the destruction of their theological enemies occurred as if it were the will of Allah.

The idea of rooting authority in a book has been problematic for Protestant Christianity because no authority outside the individual's interpretation has resulted in thousands upon thousands of theologically contradictory denominations. Islam has managed to avoid this by: 1) killing their theological enemies; 2) placing the Koran on a higher plane than most Protestant Christians place the Bible; and 3) keeping Islam radically simpler in theology and practice than Christianity. Nevertheless, Islam remains a self-declared irrational faith, and without reason the idea of democracy, separation of "church and state", and free inquiry remain illusive at best.
 
Fed, I'd actually be interested in knowing where you are drawing your facts from as well.....

Furthermore, it is difficult to equate the Christian conception of scripture with Muslim conception of the Koran. Muslims believe the Koran was in the mind of God and that it is a direct copy word for word of what God has said. Christians believe God spoke through human authors and thus the Bible has historical grounding for a historical people. There can be no relegating certain passages of the Koran to history because of the fundamentalist understanding of the grounding for the Koran - which has always been present in Islamic thought.

But to these comments specifically, I am confused as to what you are trying to say the difference is between Christianity and Islam in regards to the word of god. The Koran was written with God or "Allah" speaking through the prophet Mohammad along with some "historical" text, the bible too was written under similar circumstances, men hearing the word of god and then "faithfully" reproducing such, along with similar "historical" writings. Fundamentally there is no difference, aside from the number of authors, and the length of time spanning between when people, both well-meaning and corrupt, have had time to change what was written and recorded. The amount of change that took place during the dark ages of the bible, and during the time of Roman adoption of Christianity can be comparable to the amount of change seen in the Koran during the period of the Crusades.

I am especially confused by your statement though that the bible has historical grounding whereas the Koran does not.


I do feel the need to note the irony I find in you stating that opinion is not an important tool in the discussion of religion then immediately following it by the quote from Kierkegaard. It almost seems as if you are saying that questioning that which you are taught about religion has no place in religion, and then denying saying that in the next sentence.


This forum has some of the strangest coincidences though...... just a side note. We'll see later.

By the way, welcome to the forums, I see you drive a caddy. My lincoln is making me love caddys more and more every day :D
 
Foxpaws,

You raise some interesting points and concerns, but I don't know exactly where you are drawing your facts from. I think you may be giving the Catholic Church a little too much power in your historical analysis of the Middle Ages. The of 800-1500 is one in which the pope struggled against secular kings over power. In fact, the college of cardinals which elects the pope was created by the Catholic Church in order to keep the secular government from appointing the pope for itself.

Hello Federali Aundy - you have landed in the Lincoln vs Cadillac political forum - welcome!!!! I see you drive a Caddy? I refer to it as 'the other brand' because Caddy drivers are few and far between here. I know, I drive a Caddy. So - what kind of Caddy - year et al?

And I wasn't referring to the middle ages - where the church had to deal with feudal lords, Simony, and Lay Investiture, but the time preceding and proceeding - those were the times of the crusades and the inquisition.

And think of Charlemagne and Alfred - they created Church dynasties that defeated the Vikings and Muslims. And what did it really involve - accepting a universal church, that was common across different monarchies across Europe - along with the smaller Feudal sections in northern Europe, and that was during the time of the start of the crusades. After the middle ages, during the Renaissance, we have a very close tie-in with the church and the state - Kings were tied closely with the Vatican - or with their own church (such as the Church of England). This time period gave us witch hunts and the inquisition.

During the middle ages the bishops and priests were pretty much puppets of the lords. Sort of the opposite of today's Iran for instance - the presidents and elected officials are puppets of the ayatollah.

Also, you sound as if Christianity has abandoned any kind of law outside the Bible - but this is not true. The Catholic Church uses canon law to guide its ecclesastical affairs. It is the oldest law code still in use today. The difference between canon law and sharia is that canon law was strictly used to govern the happenings in the church and did not pretend to be a civil law. It did not punish anyone for stealing or for committing adultery. That's what the civil courts were for and thus the Catholic Church did not "rule the courts with a heavy hand." Law has an important place in Christian history - both ecclesial law and civil law. Pope St. Victor I almost excommunicated half the Church in the second century - and ecclesial law has not gone away for the largest group of Christians in the modern era (i.e. the 1+ billion Catholics).

Where have I stated that Christianity has 'abandoned' law outside the Bible - I don't recall that - but if you could point it out - I could probably address this.

As far as church making 'civil' law - how about consistory court Aundy? It, as Shari'ah law, dealt mostly with family matters - such as marriage, and probate. And I believe traditionally the Archbishop of Canterbury was the Chancellor of England - the head of the consistory court. Church and court as one - in certain legal areas - just as Shari'ah and court are as one, in today - in those same areas.

In most Middle Eastern countries - shir'ah deals with personal issues - just as consistory law did in England, and criminal law is relegated to secular courts, just as the law did in England (however this is not the case in Saudi Arabia and Iraq - who 'claim' to use shir'ah in all types of law).

Furthermore, it is difficult to equate the Christian conception of scripture with Muslim conception of the Koran. Muslims believe the Koran was in the mind of God and that it is a direct copy word for word of what God has said. Christians believe God spoke through human authors and thus the Bible has historical grounding for a historical people. There can be no relegating certain passages of the Koran to history because of the fundamentalist understanding of the grounding for the Koran - which has always been present in Islamic thought.

Oh, and if you believe that the Bible isn't the mind and exact word of God, speak to many Christians - including Foss (currently banned) on this site (especially the KJV). And in the past it certainly was taken as the whole truth. It is/was taken as the word of God - not 'just' a historical account of a people. For example, there are far more creationists than you think there are - you might want to 'google' that. You are lumping all christians, just as you are lumping all muslims into some cookie cutter idea of what you think they are. Believe me, there are plenty of Christians that take the Bible as the exact word of God, that the Hamilton Conference appointed by King James was channeling the true word of God - that it is Divine. Everything in it is fact - 6 days to create the world and all. Just as there are plenty of Muslims that discount large parts of the Qur'an. You are wrong claiming extreme in only Islamic cases Aundy, without looking at the Christian side coin, just as you are wrong claiming 'only' Christians are moderate, without accounting for the majority of moderate Muslims throughout the world.

I will say that one other thought crossed my mind about the Koran versus the Bible. For many people, Islam seems more similar to Christianity because their faith is either rooted in the Koran alone or in the Bible alone. Classical Christianity, however, was always rooted in the authority of the twelve Apostles and their direct successors: the bishops in union with the pope. When theological questions arose for Christians, the bishops would gather to render a decision as was the custom from the Apostles (see Acts of the Apostles, chapter 15). Islam has no authoritative system for peaceful resolution like this and when early theological disputes came up, the two sides often met each other with bloody violence and the destruction of their theological enemies occurred as if it were the will of Allah.

Oh, and although 'classical christianity' might be rooted in some ideal of apostles and successorship - you might want to view the blood shed between christian 'sects'. How many wars were fought with the backing of our Christian God on both sides. Check out the bloody history of Ireland and England...certainly an entire chapter could be written on bloody violence when it came to their theological disputes.

The idea of rooting authority in a book has been problematic for Protestant Christianity because no authority outside the individual's interpretation has resulted in thousands upon thousands of theologically contradictory denominations. Islam has managed to avoid this by: 1) killing their theological enemies; 2) placing the Koran on a higher plane than most Protestant Christians place the Bible; and 3) keeping Islam radically simpler in theology and practice than Christianity. Nevertheless, Islam remains a self-declared irrational faith, and without reason the idea of democracy, separation of "church and state", and free inquiry remain illusive at best.

There are plenty of Christians who put the bible on a pedestal, Christianity of the past certainly didn't always separate church and state, free inquiry remained more than illusive, but downright sinful (ever wonder what lies in the catacombs in the Vatican?)

To me it comes down to the Islamic understanding of God as pure will and absolute power. Everything that occurs in the universe is the direct work of Allah without any intermediary. There are no universal laws (e.g. the laws of physics) because Allah directly controls everything by His soveriegn power. "Islam" means submission to the power and will of Allah - and whatever He says goes. If tomorrow Allah says it's okay to kill civilians, then it is okay. The fact that sharia took time to develop doesn't mean anything for a Muslim because Allah is still at work through sharia and we can't question Him. In fact, in Islam there is no rational framework to justify anything and thus there is no basis for a truly free society.

In a religion where there is no freedom of inquiry, there can be no democracy. The opposite is true when it comes to Christianity - even in the Middle Ages. For a good book on this, check out "How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization" by Thomas E. Woods, Jr.

There are huge similarities between Christianity's past, and the Islamic present. I feel that although it may take a 'Luther' to move Islam, it could be done. I don't discount a possibility, unlike most on this site. There are more and more muslims who reject the violence and are looking for another voice, just as during Luther's time there were people who were looking for something beyond the rites and strictures, prejudices and silencing, and yes, violence endorsed by Catholicism.
 
Moderation?

Foxy, If I understand you properly, you're suggesting that there will come a time, when Islam has matured (my word), that they will be willing to live in amity with other religions. There are several problems with that. The crusades were fought with swords. Any modern war is too likely to be fought with nukes. Do you believe the protestations of Iran, that they only intend power generation with their nuclear facility. (All those centrifuges are not for making hot water!)

And please recognize that as Muhammad aged, he became increasingly violent. His early protestations regarding living in peace with others went out the window and he, basically said, 'Kill them all'. And such violence supersedes the more moderate talk of the early days.

All that's necessary is to observe the demand for Shari'a law that starts as soon as there is a 2-3% population of Muslims in a host country, and then look at the workings and ramifications of Shari'a. A quick glance at the face of the girl from Afghanistan with the lopped nose and ears, and a short read in the Detroit News regarding the father from Dearborn who killed his daughter and buried her in the back yard, (She stayed out a half-hour late), and a re-think might take place.

Don't let leftist hate for the US blind you to the implacable animosity of Islam.

KS
 
Foxy, If I understand you properly, you're suggesting that there will come a time, when Islam has matured (my word), that they will be willing to live in amity with other religions. There are several problems with that. The crusades were fought with swords. Any modern war is too likely to be fought with nukes. Do you believe the protestations of Iran, that they only intend power generation with their nuclear facility. (All those centrifuges are not for making hot water!)

Honestly, there are plenty of sects of Islam that are only interested in peaceful coexistence. Extremist factions just have so much power, especially in the middle east. Look at the politics and history of the area, it isn't exactly the best place in the world for moderate world views, and extremists have just way too much power when compared to the average person. Plus, many of the extremists who are in power were put there by western powers..... so.... yeah.... they did kinda have an advantage. Seriously though, look at the area. Constant wars, extreme income gaps between the upper and lower class, not a lot of middle class, shortage of most resources, huge amounts of very few incredibly valuable resources. This is a region where you buy power or take it by force. Whomever has the money or kills the most opposition is going to have the power. Not exactly the type of environment political and religious moderates can really prosper in.

And please recognize that as Muhammad aged, he became increasingly violent. His early protestations regarding living in peace with others went out the window and he, basically said, 'Kill them all'. And such violence supersedes the more moderate talk of the early days.

There is some debate on the validity of some of the depictions of him preaching violence as he aged. Some would suggest that this is due to "followers" changing the history later on to suit their needs.

All that's necessary is to observe the demand for Shari'a law that starts as soon as there is a 2-3% population of Muslims in a host country, and then look at the workings and ramifications of Shari'a.

This is absolutely untrue. I can point you to several countries with populations above 2 or 3% where there is no demand for Sharia law governing all the people of said host country. I can and have pointed out countries on this forum that have a muslim majority that do not function under Sharia law. Besides, as I have tried to say numerous times in the past, Sharia law varies between sects. Many sects do not even have any type of Sharia law that would be in any way related to criminal or civil law, aside from common sense, like murder, theft, assault, vandalism and so on, but then again, Christian teachings also forbid those types of activities, as well they should, so we won't begrudge Islam for forbidding them either.

A quick glance at the face of the girl from Afghanistan with the lopped nose and ears, and a short read in the Detroit News regarding the father from Dearborn who killed his daughter and buried her in the back yard, (She stayed out a half-hour late), and a re-think might take place.

These are obviously extreme cases and not typical. I can point you to a case in US history where the parents found out their daughter was out all night with a man, and therefore ordered her to shoot her dog. She loved her dog a lot, refused to, and shot herself instead. This is in no way an indictment of christian ideals, despite the fact that the parents believed strongly in christian ideology.

Don't let leftist hate for the US blind you to the implacable animosity of Islam.

KS

Why is it any mention of the bad things the US has done, or any defense of people outside the US automatically means someone "hates" the US? I love the United States of America. Every time I have ever been overseas, I make a point of counting all the ways America is better than the place I have been visiting, but I still know we aren't perfect over here.
 
Foxy, If I understand you properly, you're suggesting that there will come a time, when Islam has matured (my word), that they will be willing to live in amity with other religions. There are several problems with that. The crusades were fought with swords. Any modern war is too likely to be fought with nukes. Do you believe the protestations of Iran, that they only intend power generation with their nuclear facility. (All those centrifuges are not for making hot water!)

Nope - Iran is building the bomb - they have shown off their delivery system and everything... Of course, we invaded Iraq (sorry - I couldn't resist).

And if they are stupid enough to use it - wipe them off the face of the earth. War is war. For us though it needs to be political and not religious. We will not win a holy war against Islam. That is where the real difference lies - The crusades were a Holy War - and Christianity eventually lost.
And please recognize that as Muhammad aged, he became increasingly violent. His early protestations regarding living in peace with others went out the window and he, basically said, 'Kill them all'. And such violence supersedes the more moderate talk of the early days.

I have - somewhere there is a whole thing about how much the Qur'an changes once Mohammad leaves Mecca - it is like it is 2 different books. Books that don't work well together. Luther fought against the interpretation of the Catholic church of much of the Bible - certainly there is a Muslim who could fight against the inclusion of the 2nd half of the Qur'an, that Mohammad lost his way. It isn't unfeasible, and is in reality the best we can hope for - once again, we will not wipe them off the face of the earth.

All that's necessary is to observe the demand for Shari'a law that starts as soon as there is a 2-3% population of Muslims in a host country, and then look at the workings and ramifications of Shari'a. A quick glance at the face of the girl from Afghanistan with the lopped nose and ears, and a short read in the Detroit News regarding the father from Dearborn who killed his daughter and buried her in the back yard, (She stayed out a half-hour late), and a re-think might take place.

Does that happen a lot in Egypt - no - not at all, and Egypt is 95% Muslim and under Shari'ah law in family/personal issues. A couple of radical a$$holes don't represent all of the Muslims in the US.

Fathers as well as mothers kill their children in 'good christian homes' in this country. What can you deduce from that KS?

Don't let leftist hate for the US blind you to the implacable animosity of Islam.

KS

I love this country - however I, unlike you KS am a realist - I know Islam can be a violent fearful religion, but I also know that a holy war isn't the answer to the problem. Supporting moderate Muslims, not creating an atmosphere of fear and hatred, those are the only realistic weapons we have. Or do you think there would be a clear cut winner in the holy war of Christian vs Muslim, and do you really want to live in the world that would left after the battles?
 
Honestly, there are plenty of sects of Islam that are only interested in peaceful coexistence.

Such as...

Constant wars, extreme income gaps between the upper and lower class, not a lot of middle class, shortage of most resources, huge amounts of very few incredibly valuable resources.

What do income gaps and class disparity have to do with this? Is religion anything more then an incidental factor in explaining the problems in the middle east?

I can point you to several countries with populations above 2 or 3% where there is no demand for Sharia law governing all the people of said host country.

Such as...
 
IF---...twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools...

TO: Foxy and Find---
You have both taken what I said, added a few words or subtracted a few, and therefore bent what I had to say.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to get into a 'wall of words' contention with you.

I have observed the liberal-progressive attitude that individuals of that persuasion are just simply wonderful. If the rest of us poor benighted folk would only let ourselves be patted on our matted locks and led around by the hand (or more likely nose), all would be right with the world.

If things go the way you seem to want them to, you'll just S H I T. But when you wake up, it'll be too late. It's OK, I'll still be lookin' out for ya---just don't expect me to share my ammo.;)

KS
 
Nope - Iran is building the bomb - they have shown off their delivery system and everything... Of course, we invaded Iraq (sorry - I couldn't resist).

And if they are stupid enough to use it - wipe them off the face of the earth. War is war. For us though it needs to be political and not religious.
Yes, when all else fails, put your head in the sand and deny that it's a religious war, even if it is to THEM.

Besides, 'they' won't use the weapon against us. It will be handed off to and delivered by terrorists who can easily sneak across the open Mexican border in a truck, and never be traced to the Iranian government. So, you advocate attacking countries without provocation?
 
I love this country - however I, unlike you KS am a realist - I know Islam can be a violent fearful religion, but I also know that a holy war isn't the answer to the problem. Supporting moderate Muslims, not creating an atmosphere of fear and hatred, those are the only realistic weapons we have. Or do you think there would be a clear cut winner in the holy war of Christian vs Muslim, and do you really want to live in the world that would left after the battles?
Any time you see an affirmative statement immediately followed by the words 'but' or 'however' you can be sure the affirmative statement is dishonest.

Peace at any price, eh fox?

Thomas Jefferson knew how to handle the caliphates.

On his celebrated return to the US Commodore Stephen Decatur made his famous toast:

"Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations may she always be in the right; but our country right or wrong!"
 
Such as...

Such as nearly all.

What do income gaps and class disparity have to do with this? Is religion anything more then an incidental factor in explaining the problems in the middle east?

I do consider religion to be only a coincidental factor in the middle east. Any religion in the area would likely have been twisted in the same manner. Take world history for an example. Now insert any region with the same problems as you see in the middle east. What happens?

Such as...

Jeez, how many times do I have to make a list? For you, I'll just repeat the same basic three names I've given before in some of the other dozen duplicate threads to this one. Turkey, Kazakhstan, Mali.
 
TO: Foxy and Find---
You have both taken what I said, added a few words or subtracted a few, and therefore bent what I had to say.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to get into a 'wall of words' contention with you.

I have observed the liberal-progressive attitude that individuals of that persuasion are just simply wonderful. If the rest of us poor benighted folk would only let ourselves be patted on our matted locks and led around by the hand (or more likely nose), all would be right with the world.

If things go the way you seem to want them to, you'll just S H I T. But when you wake up, it'll be too late. It's OK, I'll still be lookin' out for ya---just don't expect me to share my ammo.;)

KS

where did I add or subtract words?:confused: I responded directly to what you said.
 
FIND
This was a sticky here a while back.
Perhaps a little alarmist but we have to stand on guard.
Religious extremists don't follow the conventional rules.
There's some more interesting stuff there about the Great Game
between Islam and the West

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=44019

The Wonder of Islam............A must read if you want to enter LvC P&CE
Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.

Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.

Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges. When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well. Here’s how it works.

As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:

United States -- Muslim 0.6%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1.8%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4. 3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris, we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam, with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 15%

After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:

Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of “Dar-es-Salaam” -- the Islamic House of Peace. Here there’s supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrassas are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 100%

Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.

“Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel. -- Leon Uris, “The Hajj”

It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts nor schools nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrassas. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate.

Today’s 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world”s population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and Jews, and all other believers. Muslims will exceed 50% of the world’s population by the end of this century.

Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond”s book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat
__________________
 
Reality?

Yes, when all else fails, put your head in the sand and deny that it's a religious war, even if it is to THEM.

Besides, 'they' won't use the weapon against us. It will be handed off to and delivered by terrorists who can easily sneak across the open Mexican border in a truck, and never be traced to the Iranian government. So, you advocate attacking countries without provocation?

An interesting book on this subject is titled, 'Detroit: Autumn Red'. Written by my friend Ben Garrick, it tells, with a disclaimer that it's fiction, the story surrounding the smuggling of a nuke from Canada, by bringing it across the Detroit River. It's now out of print, and, although used copies are around, they tend to be collector items, and, when signed, rather pricy. Ben tells me that new editions will be available this fall or winter.

KS
 

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