Iran says it won't halt atomic work

decibels5 said:
so, what do you guys think about iran having subs, that is some scary sh1t... also since yall are talking about where everyone gets there weapons from, where did iran score some submarines(2)

Iran has nuclear subs? This is something that I've never heard of, nor do I think it could possibly be true. In order to have nuclear subs, they would have to have the ability to generate nuclear power. Right now, they can't do that.

I think Israel has been reported to have just contracted the purchase of some German subs capable of firing nuclear missles though.

i would love to see israel and iran go at it. maybe they would end the middle east.
Actually, that will be horrible. Unfortunately, it is extremely possible.

But why would you want to see Israel destroyed? It's a peaceful country with a thriving democracy and economy. It is our ally in that region.

Keep in mind, any war with Iran will not be contained with that region. The violence will spread through out the world.
 
dont get me wrong, i would not like to see the aftermath of any nuclear holocaust. not anyone. just thinking outloud. it would be the end of alot. as far as the nuclear submarine, they are not nuclear powered, but very capable of having nuclear ordinance onboard. believe me in my short time on a sub i have seen the transition of torpedos, tomahawks, and ballistic missiles and it doesnt take much to equip them for different types of firepower and technology.
 
Thanks for the link.

Well, fortunately, at the moment, they still don't have nuclear weapons.
That's at least for the time being.
 
Calabrio said:
Well, fortunately, at the moment, they still don't have nuclear weapons.
That's at least for the time being.

And when they do, we'll be the 1st to know.:(
 
MonsterMark said:
And when they do, we'll be the 1st to know.:(

I don't trust any religious zealot. Their views cloud their judgement. I've been reading that there is a substantial group of Iranians that are not real happy with the sabre rattling. Shouldn't we be doing more to cause internal dissention rather than overtly trying to strongarm the current administration?
 
barry2952 said:
I don't trust any religious zealot. Their views cloud their judgement. I've been reading that there is a substantial group of Iranians that are not real happy with the sabre rattling. Shouldn't we be doing more to cause internal dissention rather than overtly trying to strongarm the current administration?
I believe we are. The vast majority of people in Iran are under the age of 30. They would rather listen to music on their ipods and take a weekend trip up to the mountains than sit around scheming how to kill innocent people. They are far more educated and far more 'in-tune' with other cultures around the globe.
 
MonsterMark said:
I believe we are. The vast majority of people in Iran are under the age of 30. They would rather listen to music on their ipods and take a weekend trip up to the mountains than sit around scheming how to kill innocent people. They are far more educated and far more 'in-tune' with other cultures around the globe.

If I understand the situation correctly the populus is mostly Shiite Muslims, but they are not Arabs. Does this make a difference, in you opinion?
 
once they get the nuclear power they still couldnt reach the United States because they dont have a long range missle as of now, I did my Sr. research paper on this
 
Like how you said "AS OF NOW". Also like i was saying earlier, doesnt take much to equip a sub. our tracking programs are pretty dam good, but there is always a chance they could slip by. also the type of sub they have, a diesel, are the quietest and hardest to detect if maneuvered properly. i would like to think that iran really does have something better on their mind than ending a third of the world, but i am sure the us has something other than the war on terror in # different countries on our mind. we all have leaders that we support, or dont.
 
Calabrio said:
First- the U.S. did not provide Iraq chemical weapons. We provided them military intelligence during the Iran/Iraq war. The Iraqis were supplied NOT by the US by by the Soviets during that period.


Ummm..YES YOU DID!!! ALong with Briatin and France, and Russia. This hasn't been disputed (except by you.) Even your government has admitted it several times. Where have you been?

http://www.chronicillnet.org/PGWS/tuite/chembio.html

http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/made-in-the-usa-part-iii-the-dishonor-roll/2889/

There's tons of links....look for yourself..I can't make this up...
 
decibels5 said:
http://hotzone.yahoo.com/b/hotzone/blogs2208

lets just drug them to death. if we organize some crime, then the people with little or no values will overdose. just got to get the crazy ones.
I like that idea. We could control the poppy fields in Afganistan and then start aerial dropping baggies all over Iran.

Get them all heroined up and hooked and then pull the supply. They'll all die from the d.t.'s.
 
RRocket said:
Ummm..YES YOU DID!!! ALong with Briatin and France, and Russia. This hasn't been disputed (except by you.) Even your government has admitted it several times. Where have you been?

http://www.chronicillnet.org/PGWS/tuite/chembio.html

http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/made-in-the-usa-part-iii-the-dishonor-roll/2889/

There's tons of links....look for yourself..I can't make this up...
No, you wouldn't make it up, but you might repeat something that isn't true.

Did I miss the part that says "The U.S. shipped Mustard gas (or insert name of other banned chemical warfare agent"... I'm not seeing that in either of the articles. In fairness, I haven't made my way all the way through the first link yet. Save me the trouble and just let me know.

As I mentioned, we provided support, primarily in the form of intelligence, but i dn't see us shipping chemical weapons in either link.
 
MarkOfDeath said:
once they get the nuclear power they still couldnt reach the United States because they dont have a long range missle as of now, I did my Sr. research paper on this

Totally missed the point. Iran DOESN'T HAVE to reach the United States with a nuke! They could give it to a terrorist group who could smuggle it into the States in the back of a truck across the Mexican border.

Or they could simply detonate one over Israel. POOF! Gone.

Did you cover this in your research paper?
 
Calabrio said:
No, you wouldn't make it up, but you might repeat something that isn't true.

Did I miss the part that says "The U.S. shipped Mustard gas (or insert name of other banned chemical warfare agent"... I'm not seeing that in either of the articles. In fairness, I haven't made my way all the way through the first link yet. Save me the trouble and just let me know.

As I mentioned, we provided support, primarily in the form of intelligence, but i dn't see us shipping chemical weapons in either link.


You gave them the military technology, the detonators, and the chemicals. You just didn't ship a "completed" item bomb or missile per se. No doubt so the US companies could skirt some laws. You gave them the recipe, you didn't bake the cake. The chemicals sold include: anthrax, VX nerve gas,and botulism. And these items were sold up until 1992. Still think you didn't sell them WMDs??

Here's a quick blurb on it..without having to reads all those dry governemnt reports: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0908-08.htm
 
Please...don't link to commondreams. That would be like me linking to www.CrazyRightWingGuyLivinginaCabinandwatchesforblackhelicopters.com

And, again, you just sent me to a left-wing link explaining the document I'd just read. "Dual-use" is not the same as sending weapon grade materials. It's a nuanced argument, but it needs to be stated. We did not ship Iraq chemical and bioweapons. They sent them dual-use equipment that was then able to be used to develop the deadly weapons. And, these kind of half-measure make up one of the foundations of cold war diplomacy.

The biological examples were shipped to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education, and it's routine for educational institutions to transfer those samples around the world especially if there are good diplomatic relations.

Furthermore, most people seem to think that we "armed" the Iraqis. We didn't. We never did. We didn't supply them with weapons, munitions, fighting vehicles or bio-weapons. The only directly military asset we provided was intelligence, primarily on Iranian troop movements.

For the record, I don't think it was wrong to provide the Iraqis with support in the 80s. They acted as the counter balance to the Iranians in the regions. Had Iraq been unable to defend itself against the larger neighbor, Iran would control most of the oil and terrirory within the Middle East.

I also think it's ridiculous that the left seems to pull out these half truths as though it has anything to do with current events. Is the implication that we shouldn't have supported an evil regime 25 years ago, even though their enemy was even worse? Or are they saying that since we were involved once, we have lost the authority to take military actions to keep him in line?

Regardless if you think RR or I am right, either perspective clearly indicates that Hussein DID have those weapons. He did have those programs. And we knew that he did have them. So the "Bush lied" argument is stupid and dishonest.
 
YOU DID SO SELL BIOCHEMICALS TO IRAQ THAT COULD BE USED TO MAKE WMDs. You could also send uranium (which you did to Iran!) and other nuclear materials for "dual use". Would you then say it's OK because it's for dual use?? You know as well as I, that Iraq most certainly used the "dual use" bio-chemicals that you sold them for the WMDs programs. Just like Iran is currently using the reactors and uranium you sent them for who knows what. Just because it was a "good will" or "educational" shipment of goods, doesn't mean it won't be used for nerfarious purposes. I mean, if it's "dual use", as you like to say, you'd condone sending these same chemicals to Iran or Lebanon now beacsue they'd use it JUST for education, right? And you know..Saddam would NEVER, EVER tell the colleges/universities or educational research cebnters to hand it over for weapons researh, right? And colleges and universities NEVER do military research either, right? I mean..talk about having your head in the sand...And you guys aren't the only ones to blame. Russia, China, France and Britain also sold this stuff too. And under the "dual use" to skirt laws. It's in the document AKA the "Riegle Report" as prepared by Sen. Donald Riegle for. The evidence is there!! Here's an exceprt from the report, Chapter 1. Part 2 It states what was shipped, from where and to whom. I agree..you didn't sell them the weapons, but you sold them the recipes and all the parts they needed to build their own.

U.S. Exports of Biological Materials to Iraq

The Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs has oversight responsibility for the Export Administration Act. Pursuant to the Act, Committee staff contacted the U.S. Department of Commerce and requested information on the export of biological materials during the years prior to the Gulf War. After receiving this information, we contacted a principal supplier of these materials to determine what, if any, materials were exported to Iraq which might have contributed to an offensive or defensive biological warfare program. Records available from the supplier for the period from 1985 until the present show that during this time, pathogenic (meaning "disease producing"), toxigenic (meaning "poisonous"), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Records prior to 1985 were not available, according to the supplier. These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction. According to the Department of Defense's own Report to Congress on the Conduct of the Persian Gulf War, released in April 1992: "By the time of the invasion of Kuwait, Iraq had developed biological weapons. It's advanced and aggressive biological warfare program was the most advanced in the Arab world... The program probably began late in the 1970's and concentrated on the development of two agents, botulinum toxin and anthrax bacteria... Large scale production of these agents began in 1989 at four facilities in Baghdad. Delivery means for biological agents ranged from simple aerial bombs and artillery rockets to surface-to-surface missiles."

Included in the approved sales are the following biological materials (which have been considered by various nations for use in war), with their associated disease symptoms:

Bacillus Anthracis: anthrax is a disease producing bacteria identified by the Department of Defense in The Conduct of the Persian Gulf War: Final Report to Contress, as being a major component in the Iraqi biological warfare program.

Anthrax is an often fatal infectious disease due to ingestion of spores. It begins abruptly with high fever, difficulty in breathing, and chest pain. The disease eventually results in septicemia (blood poisoning), and the mortality is high. Once septicemia is advanced, antibiotic therapy may prove useless, probably because the exotoxins remain, despite the death of the bacteria.

Clostridium Botulinum: A bacterial source of botulinum toxin, which causes vomiting, constipation, thirst, general weakness, headache, fever, dizziness, double vision, dilation of the pupils and paralysis of the muscles involving swallowing. It is often fatal.

Histoplasma Capsulatum: causes a disease superfically resembling tuberculosis that may cause pneumonia, enlargement of the liver and spleen, anemia, an influenza like illness and an acute inflammatory skin disease marked by tender red nodules, usually on the shins. Reactivated infection usually involves the lungs, the brain, spinal membranes, heart, peritoneum, and the adrenals.

Brucella Melitensis: a bacteria which can cause chronic fatique, loss of appetite, profuse sweating when at rest, pain in joints and muscles, insomnia, nausea, and damage to major organs.

Clostridium Perfringens: a highly toxic bateria which causes gas gangrene. The bacteria produce toxins that move along muscle bundles in the body killing cells and producing necrotic tissue that is then favorable for further growth of the bacteria itself. Eventually, these toxins and bacteria enter the bloodstream and cause a systemic illness.

In addition, several shipments of Escherichia Coli (E. Coli) and genetic materials, as well as human and bacterial DNA, were shipped directly to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission.

The following is a detailed listing of biological materials, provided by the American Type Culture Collection, which were exported to agencies of the government of Iraq pursuant to the issueance of an export licensed by the U.S. Commerce Department:

Date : February 8, 1985
Sent To : Iraq Atomic Energy Agency
Materials Shipped:

Ustilago nuda (Jensen) Rostrup

Date : February 22, 1985
Sent To : Ministry of Higher Education
Materials Shipped:

Histoplasma capsulatum var. farciminosum (ATCC 32136)
Class III pathogen

Date : July 11, 1985
Sent To : Middle and Near East Regional A
Material Shipped:

Histoplasma capsulatum var. farciminosum (ATCC 32136)
Class III pathogen

Date : May 2, 1986
Sent To : Ministry of Higher Education
Materials Shipped:

1. Bacillus Anthracis Cohn (ATCC 10)
Batch # 08-20-82 (2 each)
Class III pathogen

2. Bacillus Subtilis (Ehrenberg) Cohn (ATCC 82)
Batch # 06-20-84 (2 each)

3. Clostridium botulinum Type A (ATCC 3502)
Batch # 07-07-81 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

4. Clostridium perfringens (Weillon and Zuber) Hauduroy, et al (ATCC 3624)
Batch # 10-85SV (2 each)

5. Bacillus subtilis (ATCC 6051)
Batch # 12-06-84 (2 each)

6. Francisella tularensis var. tularensis Olsufiev (ATCC 6223)
Batch # 05-14-79 (2 each)
Avirulent, suitable for preparations of diagnotic antigens

7. Clostridium tetani (ATCC 9441)
Batch # 03-84 (3 each)
Highly toxigenic

8. Clostridium botulinum Type E (ATCC 9564)
Batch # 03-02-79 (2 each)
Class III pathogen

9. Clostridium tetani (ATCC 10779)
Batch # 04-24-84S (3 each)

10. Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 12916)
Batch #08-14-80 (2 each)
Agglutinating type 2

11. Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 13124)
Batch #07-84SV (3 each)
Type A, alpha-toxigenic, produces lecithinase C.J. Appl.

12. Bacillus Anthracis (ATCC 14185)
Batch #01-14-80 (3 each)
G.G. Wright (Fort Detrick)
V770-NP1-R. Bovine Anthrax
Class III pathogen

13. Bacillus Anthracis (ATCC 14578)
Batch #01-06-78 (2 each)
Class III pathogen

14. Bacillus megaterium (ATCC 14581)
Batch #04-18-85 (2 each)

15. Bacillus megaterium (ATCC 14945)
Batch #06-21-81 (2 each)

16. Clostridium botulinum Type E (ATCC 17855)
Batch # 06-21-71
Class III pathogen

17. Bacillus megaterium (ATCC 19213)
Batch #3-84 (2 each)

18. Clostridium botulinum Type A (ATCC 19397)
Batch # 08-18-81 (2 each)
Class III pathogen

19. Brucella abortus Biotype 3 (ATCC 23450)
Batch # 08-02-84 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

20. Brucella abortus Biotype 9 (ATCC 23455)
Batch # 02-05-68 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

21. Brucella melitensis Biotype 1 (ATCC 23456)
Batch # 03-08-78 (2 each)
Class III pathogen

22. Brucella melitensis Biotype 3 (ATCC 23458)
Batch # 01-29-68 (2 each)
Class III pathogen

23. Clostribium botulinum Type A (ATCC 25763)
Batch # 8-83 (2 each)
Class III pathogen

24. Clostridium botulinum Type F (ATCC 35415)
Batch # 02-02-84 (2 each)
Class III pathogen

Date : August 31, 1987
Sent To : State Company for Drug Industries
Materials Shipped:

1. Saccharomyces cerevesiae (ATCC 2601)
Batch # 08-28-08 (1 each)

2. Salmonella choleraesuis subsp. choleraesuis Serotype typhi (ATCC 6539)
Batch # 06-86S (1 each)

3. Bacillus subtillus (ATCC 6633)
Batch # 10-85 (2 each)

4. Klebsiella pneumoniae subsp. pneumoniae (ATCC 10031)
Batch # 08-13-80 (1 each)

5. Escherichia coli (ATCC 10536)
Batch # 04-09-80 (1 each)

6. Bacillus cereus (11778)
Batch #05-85SV (2 each)

7. Staphylococcus epidermidis (ATCC 12228)
Batch # 11-86s (1 each)

8. Bacillus pumilus (ATCC 14884)
Batch # 09-08-80 (2 each)

Date : July 11, 1988
Sent To : Iraq Atomic Energy Commission
Materials Shipped

1. Escherichia coli (ATCC 11303)
Batch # 04-875
Phase host

2. Cauliflower Mosaic Caulimovirus (ATCC 45031)
Batch # 06-14-85
Plant Virus

3. Plasmid in Agrobacterium Tumefaciens (ATCC 37349)
(Ti plasmid for co-cultivation with plant integration vectors in E. Coli)
Batch # 05-28-85

Date : April 26, 1988
Sent To: : Iraq Atomic Energy Commission
Materials Shipped:

1. Hulambda4x-8, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase
(HPRT) Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57236) Phage vector
Suggest host: E coli

2. Hulambda14-8, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase
(HPRT) Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57240) Phage vector
Suggested host: E coli

3. Hulambda15, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase
(HPRT) Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57242) Phage vector
Suggested host: E. coli

Date : August 31, 1987
Sent To : Iraq Atomic Energy Commission
Materials Shipped:

1. Escherichia coli (ATCC 23846)
Batch # 07-29-83 (1 each)

2. Escherichia coli (ATCC 33694)
Batch # 05-87 (1 each)

Date : September 29, 1988
Sent To : Ministry of Trade
Materials Shipped:

1. Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 240)
Batch # 05-14-63 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

2. Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 938)
Batch # 1963 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

3. Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 3629)
Batch # 10-23-85 (3 each)

4. Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 8009)
Batch # 03-30-84 (3 each)

5. Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 8705)
Batch # 06-27-62 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

6. Brucella abortus (ATCC 9014)
Batch # 05-11-66 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

7. Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 10388)
Batch # 06-01-73 (3 each)

8. Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 11966)
Batch #05-05-70 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

9. Clostridium botulinum Type A
Batch # 07-86 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

10. Bacillus cereus (ATCC 33018)
Batch # 04-83 (3 each)

11. Bacillus ceres (ATCC 33019)
Batch # 03-88 (3 each)

Date : January 31, 1989
Sent To : Iraq Atomic Energy Commission
Materials Shipped:

1. PHPT31, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase (HPRT)
Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57057)

2. Plambda500, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase
pseudogene (HPRT) Chromosome(s): 5 p14-p13 (ATCC 57212)

Date : January 17, 1989
Sent To : Iraq Atomic Energy Commission
Materials Shipped:

1. Hulambda4x-8, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase
(HPRT) Chromosomes(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57237) Phage vector;
Suggested host: E. coli

2. Hulambda14, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase
(HPRT) Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57540), Cloned from human lymphoblast, Phase vector
Suggested host: E. coli

3. Hulambda15, clone: human hypoxanthine phosphoribosyltransferase
(HPRT) Chromosome(s): X q26.1 (ATCC 57241) Phage vector;
Suggested host: E. coli


Additionally, the Centers for Disease Control has compiled a listing of biological materials shipped to Iraq prior to the Gulf War. The listing covers the period from October 1, 1984 (when the CDC began keeping records) through October 13, 1993. The following materials with biological warfare significance were shipped to Iraq during this period.

Date : November 28, 1989
Sent To : University of Basrah, College of
Science, Department of Biology
Materials Shipped:

1. Enterococcus faecalis

2. Enterococcus faecium

3. Enterococcus avium

4. Enterococcus raffinosus

5. Enteroccus gallinarium

6. Enterococcus durans

7. Enteroccus hirae

8. Streptococcus bovis
(etiologic)

Date : April 21, 1986
Sent To : Officers City Al-Muthanna,
Quartret 710, Street 13, Close 69, House 28/I,
Baghdad, Iraq
Materials Shipped:

1. 1 vial botulinum toxoid
(non-infectious)

Date : March 10, 1986
Sent To : Officers City Al-Muthanna,
Quartret 710, Street 13, Close 69 House 28/I,
Baghdad, Iraq
Materials Shipped:

1. 1 vial botulinum toxoid #A2
(non-infectious)

Date : June 25, 1985
Sent To : University of Baghdad, College of
Medicine, Department of Microbiology
Materials Shipped:

1. 3 years cultures
(etiologic)
Candida sp.

Date : May 21, 1985
Sent To : Basrah, Iraq
Materials Shipped:

1. Lyophilized arbovirus seed
(etiologic)

2. West Nile Fever Virus

Date : April 26, 1985
Sent To : Minister of Health, Ministry of
Health, Baghdad, Iraq
Materials Shipped:

1. 8 vials antigen and antisera (r. rickettsii and r. typhi) to diagnose rickettsial infections (non-infectious)
 
I just said that they transfered Biological agents to Institutions of learning and the institute of health. Did you miss that? Reread the post and respond accordingly.

And what you posted is not what was initially implied. We didn't send over drums of weaponized bio-agents. Bio-samples were transfered to what were recognized as legitimate receivers for such a thing. To be used in medicine, by the institute of heath, the ministry of education, ect....

Read what you posted.

But, "so what?" How does that have any impact on current foreign policy? If anything it strengthens the claims of Iraqi WMDs. Left-wing types make this claim all the time, I still don't see the logic in it though.
 
Did you read my very original post? It was "You knew Iraq had WMDs, cause you sold it to them" I guess I should have said "you sold them everything but a completed weapon" That would have been better I guess. Oh..and you have sold arms and weapons to Iraq. Viable, complete weapons, but no WMDs per se. Although the amount of arms sold to Iraq only accounted for 1% of their total weapons imports..
 
RRocket said:
Did you read my very original post? It was "You knew Iraq had WMDs, cause you sold it to them" I guess I should have said "you sold them everything but a completed weapon" That would have been better I guess. Oh..and you have sold arms and weapons to Iraq. Viable, complete weapons, but no WMDs per se. Although the amount of arms sold to Iraq only accounted for 1% of their total weapons imports..

I read everything I respond to, and I try to respond to everything in good faith and thoroughly.

And I don't mean to nitpick, but those are some substantial differences. Transfering banned weapons is different than sending two samples of anthrax to the Health Department or a University.

And you are correct about the total weapon imports. 1% is hardly considered "arming" the Iraqis, yet I hear the claim made all the time. Usually from the same people who say we gave them the chemical weapons used to bomb Iran and the Kurds. I'm pretty sure Iraq was primarily supplied by the French and Russians... That's why their airforce consisted of MiGs and Mirages.

The level of U.S. involvement is routinely overstated and misrepresented, especially on sources found on commondream, with alterior motives. Some seem to think that by virtue of any past involvement, we no longer should be able to respond to future threats. The logic here is completely flawed, but it's quite popular on the left. And it is important to note how important it was that Iraq not get crushed by the Iranians during the 80s.

This is also why pulling out of Iraq isn't a sane option now.
 
So here's RRocket arguing that weapons grade chemicals are deadly, and yet his liberal buddies refuse to acknowledge that we DID find chemical weapons in Iraq because they weren't "the ones we went in there for" and they were degraded anyway?

Based upon his logic, the 500 WMDs we found ARE a smoking gun.

LMAO at the hypocrisy.

You can't have it both ways.
 

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