Is Lincoln Still A "Premium" Luxury Division?

[thaywood]

I think not. Lincoln, a once great premium luxury division of Ford Motor Company, has gone decidedly down market in the past decade or so. With the demise of the Mark series and the LS, Lincoln has been left with nothing but inferior, badge-engineered FWD pseudo-luxury vehicles with which to compete with the likes of Cadillac and other brands from Europe and Japan. Cadillac, on the other hand, has moved way upmarket with very upscale RWD offerings like the CTS, CTS-V, STS, and STS-V. There are even coupe and wagon versions of the CTS. The "V" series CTS has a 550hp supercharged V-8 with a 6-speed manual. Nothing from Lincoln can even touch that. Lincoln's closest competitor to the CTS is the MKZ. To even assume the MKZ could come close to going up against the CTS is laughable. Lincoln's closest competitor to the STS is the MKS. It does have an optional EcoBoost V-6 with 355hp, but the inferior FWD platform (yes, I know it has AWD, but it is front-biased with a sideways engine) is nowhere near as competent and sophisticated as the Zeta RWD platform upon which the STS is based. I won't even compare anything from Lincoln with anything from Lexus, Infiniti, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar, or any other premium European or Japanese brand. Because Lincoln can't compete with them. As of now, Lincoln is playing in Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Volkswagen's sandbox. I'm a Lincoln man. Always have been. But I am very disappointed in my favorite brand at this time. Lincoln's showing in the luxury car field is pathetic. Lincoln can't even compete with Hyundai now! The RWD V-8 powered Genesis and Equus outclass everything from Lincoln. And that is pitiful. Hyundai for God's sake!!! The morons running Lincoln should be ashamed. Lincoln is not the company it used to be. No longer is Lincoln a force to be rekoned with in the premium luxury arena. Lincoln is now just another car to get you from point A to point B. Nothing more. And that makes me very sad.

Opinions?

 

[Aquabrit]

A long time ago on LOD, a member said this of Lincoln:

Lincoln = Ford in lipstick and heels.

I somewhat agree and actually prefer Ford's current offerings to those of Lincoln.

Although dated, the modern Town Car is still my favorite of the recent Lincolns.

 

[thaywood]

A long time ago on LOD, a member said this of Lincoln:

Lincoln = Ford in lipstick and heels.

I somewhat agree and actually prefer Ford's current offerings to those of Lincoln.

Although dated, the modern Town Car is still my favorite of the recent Lincolns.

I have to agree. I love the Town Car. I've had several of them. But by today's standards, it's an overpriced, underpowered dinosaur. But I still love it, simply because it's still Lincoln's only real RWD luxury car. Unfortunately, it has only a short time to live. When it's gone, Lincoln's only RWD vehicle will be the Navigator. And as great as the Nav is, it's having a hard time competing with the Escalade. Although the Navi has a more sophisticated chassis and suspension, the Caddy is arguably better looking and more powerful (by a lot) and much faster than the Navi. Anyway, Lincoln is indeed nothing more than a badge engineered Ford now. The MKZ is just a slightly modified Fusion (which in turn is a rebodied Mazda6) and the MKS is a rebodied Taurus (which is a rebodied Volvo). The MKX is a Ford Edge with a lincoln grille and tail lights. And the MKT is a rebodied Flex. It's horrible. Lincoln is in pitiful shape now. I hate it, but they may follow Mercury to FWD obscurity in the not to distant future. Then it'll just be Ford.

 

[thaywood]

Wow. Nobody comes to the MKS forum:lol:

Must be a great car

 

[TWRPWR]

Do you actually own an MKS, if you did I dont think you would make these unfair observations.

 

[thaywood]

Do you actually own an MKS, if you did I dont think you would make these unfair observations.

Nope. I don't. And I never will. I can't afford one. And even if I could, I wouldn't buy it. It's wrong-wheel-drive with a sideways engine. I have never and will never own a wrong-wheel-drive car. And as I stated several times, the overall proportions are too FWD looking. I prefer a real RWD automobile. Some of my observations may be subjective, but most aren't unfair. They're factual.

Fact: The majority of the premium luxury cars the MKS is attempting to compete with are Rear-Wheel-Drive with V-8 engines.

Fact: According to market trends, people who can afford premium luxury vehicles prefer RWD and V-8 engines. That's why you'll never see a FWD BMW, Jaguar, or Mercedes.

Fact: The MKS is FWD with a sideways engine.

Fact: FWD vehicles like the MKS are nose heavy, understeer badly, and torque steer heavily (especially if they have more that about 225hp going to the front wheels).

Fact: The MKS has an optional part-time AWD system that is primarily FWD under all but the most severe driving conditions.

Fact: The Cadillac STS (the MKS's closest domestic competitor) is RWD/AWD, has an available V-8, and competes in the higher end territory of Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus.

Fact: The MKS has classic FWD proportions that do not fit with the types of vehicles it is supposed to be competing with.

Fact: The MKS is based upon the Taurus platform, which is a modified version of the old Volvo S80 platform.

The car itself may be a fine automobile. And that's wonderful. It simply doesn't belong in the same league as RWD premium luxury sedans like the Cadillac CTS/STS, Lexus LS460, or any BMW or Mercedes. Lincoln has gone down market with their current offerings of FWD V-6 cars that are more on par with Honda and Toyota than true premium luxury sedans.

 

[TWRPWR]

Most people who drive luxury cars cannot maximize the handling capabilities of rear drive V8s, especially in Canada. The MKS ecoboost has 355hp and is AWD. Its not about speed and pylons, its about comfort and safety (and in my case the sound system). If you want something sportier buy a real sports car or spend another $40,000.

 

[mark0101]

Sorry thaywood but I would have to disagree. Your major complaint about the car is about it being a FWD and not being a V8. I haven't driven the MKS, so I can't comment on how bad the torque steer is. Can't imagine it as bad as the Continental though.

The Ecoboost V6 offers plenty of power and with a tune, can beat many of the V8s. It would be nice to have a V8 but the V6 offers as much power as the V8s.

Also, no other car in its class can offer as much space in its class. Cadillac on the other hand has gotten so small and the interior of the STS isn't anything to write about. Cadillac overall has lost all the appeal it once had by trying to copy BMW. It doesn't have the "American luxury" feel to it anymore. BTW the V8 isn't offered on the STS anymore, just a V6 now.

Now with the BMW (5 series) and MB (E-class). Again, too small and not enough trunk space. The Lexus LS 460 isn't even in the same league, it is about 10-15 grand more then the MKS.

MKS is an amazing car for people who want to move up to a newer vehicle that is similar to the Town Car like our family or families who like to travel. It offers as much space as the Town Car but with all the luxury amenities as BMW, MB, and Lexus.

Having a Taurus based platform is not a bad think. It is cheaper on repairs later on just like how the Town Car can use parts from the Vic's.

 

[thaywood]

Sorry thaywood but I would have to disagree. Your major complaint about the car is about it being a FWD and not being a V8. I haven't driven the MKS, so I can't comment on how bad the torque steer is. Can't imagine it as bad as the Continental though.

The wrong-wheel-drive issue isn't the only one, but it's the major problem. When comparing the MKS and any other Lincoln vehicle (except the Town Car) to other "premium" luxury cars, it is not in the same clas. Most other premium luxury cars today are RWD. Even Hyundai for crap sake has a RWD, V-8 powered luxury sedan!!! According to market trends, people who can afford the exuberent prices of premium luxury sedans prefer RWD. That's why RWD is making a major comeback and why you'll never see a FWD BMW, Mercedes, or Jaguar, among others.

The Ecoboost V6 offers plenty of power and with a tune, can beat many of the V8s. It would be nice to have a V8 but the V6 offers as much power as the V8s.

Then why not just put a V-8 in it? Just think what an Ecoboost V-8 could do!

Also, no other car in its class can offer as much space in its class. Cadillac on the other hand has gotten so small and the interior of the STS isn't anything to write about. Cadillac overall has lost all the appeal it once had by trying to copy BMW. It doesn't have the "American luxury" feel to it anymore.

That may be true. I haven't done much extensive research into the car. But what I can see is the goofy FWD proportions of the MKS compared to the elegant and balanced proportions of the other RWD sedans in the premium luxury class. That's another area where the MKS sorely lacks. But I must disagree about the Cadillac. It's a damn nice car, inside and out, in my opinion. If I could afford one, I'd take it over anything from Lincoln.

BTW the V8 isn't offered on the STS anymore, just a V6 now.

Not true: http://www.edmunds.com/cadillac/sts/2010/

The Northstar is still available. Apparently, no more "V" series though. Bummer.

Now with the BMW (5 series) and MB (E-class). Again, too small and not enough trunk space. The Lexus LS 460 isn't even in the same league, it is about 10-15 grand more then the MKS.

Not necessarily. It may be too small for you, or others. But I could do just fine with a Bimmer or a Merc. If I could afford one, that is.

MKS is an amazing car for people who want to move up to a newer vehicle that is similar to the Town Car like our family or families who like to travel. It offers as much space as the Town Car but with all the luxury amenities as BMW, MB, and Lexus.

The MKS is not similar to the Town Car It's wrong-wheel-drive with a sideways mounted engine and unibody. It's not even close to being as big and fluffy as a Town Car. And did I mention it was FWD with a sideways engine??? I'd take a Town Car any day over this thing. But that's just me.

Having a Taurus based platform is not a bad think. It is cheaper on repairs later on just like how the Town Car can use parts from the Vic's.

It's not a bad thing for an "entry level" luxury car. But not good for a car claiming to be a "premium" luxury sedan. Some folks, if they were actually aware of it, would balk at paying that kind of money for what is essentially a Taurus in a suit and tie.

 

[brentalan]

Now that they killed Mercury, additional resources will be going to Lincoln. I have heard will start to see some pretty impressive Lincolns in 2-3 years.

 

[fastmark1993]

Until then I'll stick with my mark viii

 

[thaywood]

Now that they killed Mercury, additional resources will be going to Lincoln. I have heard will start to see some pretty impressive Lincolns in 2-3 years.

I hate that Mercury's gone. But Ford had let the division stagnate and languish as nothing more than badge-engineered Fords for decades...wait...that's what Lincoln is now!!!

But if I don't see at least one modern Rear-Drive car in the lineup that can actually compete with other luxury cars in their price class, I won't be impressed with whatever they offer.

Until then I'll stick with my mark viii

Same here.

 

[thaywood]

No activity since Jan. 4th. Wow. Folks love the MKS! LMFAO!!!

 

[FC3]

Hmm. Okay, I'll play.

I had my Navi in the dealer's service department a little while ago, which left me with some time to waste. The MKS is a decent package, as is the MKT. I actually would consider the MKT, but for that silly V6. On the other hand, driving 30,000ish miles per year, the fuel economy of the Navi leaves something to be desired. I really don't need a 3 ton SUV.

I did drive one of the MKTs. The MKS is nice, but I need a bit more space for our weekends at the shore and on the boat, and also to pull the PWC. The ride and drive isn't too bad. I only did a short loop because it was still the morning rush. I'd like to drive the MKT some more. That said, it's an entirely different car than my old 90 Town Car, 94, 96, and 98 Mark VIII (still have the 98) or my 99 Navigator.

Someone mentioned parts. A friend is a Porsche Tech and works next to the dealer's Audi shop. A 4 wheel brake job on the Cayenne or the Q7 is somewhere in the neighborhood of twenty-five hundred. My wife has a 2007 Jaguar Vanden Plas that we leased and since my wife liked it so much, we bought it after the lease ended. Front brake pads for that car are about $250-300 for OEM pads not from the dealer. Front rotors are about $300 a pair. The 50,000 mile service was... I forget... just under 2 grand? I bought premium Centric pads, hoses, and rotors for the Navi's front axle a month ago for under $300.

While the Jag is only about 20 grand more than the Lincoln, but when you consider TCO, it's a lot bigger step than that. On the other hand, the Vanden Plas is an entirely aluminum body and frame, it's incredibly strong but light. She has great crash ratings from IIHS and she turns about 17 mpg around town. I've gotten 28 mpg on the highway (NJ to SC & back) at 80 and 31 @ 70 (NJ to MD & back,) not terrible for a 300 hp 4.2 liter V8 in a room 4 door.

The new cars from Lincoln are different, that's for certain. Not sure which way I'll jump next. Maybe just do a wait and see until the Navigator dies. It's around 340,000 miles, but still running well. We'll see...

 

[Coherent]

Eh... The Mark VIII section doesn't lie when it says.
Lincoln Mark VIII
Talk about the Lincoln Mark VIII - the last REAL Lincoln performance vehicle.

The new eco boost models do have a decent amount of power, but that doesn't really make them a performance luxury car. The FWD has got to go or they're basically just another family hauler with some power when you stomp the pedal. Take a Taurus Sho and throw a ton of gadgets in it and you get the new Lincolns.

 

[BlackLS06]

As much as the mark VIII guys may not like it the last performance lincoln was the ls.

From 2007 and on everything else is ecoboost fwd crap.

 

[thaywood]

As much as the mark VIII guys may not like it the last performance lincoln was the ls.

Well....sorta...

The LS wasn't really as performance oriented as the Mark was. The only real advantage the LS has over the Mark is the extra set of doors and the slightly better suspension. I have to say the LS I drove a looooong time ago handled great. Much better than my Mark VIII. However, the LS didn't match the Mark's power until it was almost dead. And even then, it didn't have as much as an LSC. So in terms of pure power and performance in a 2-door luxury performance coupe, the Mark VIII was Lincoln's last performance car. The LS was more of a sports sedan, not so much built for high performance.

From 2007 and on everything else is ecoboost fwd crap.

I totally agree with this. Lincoln has sunk about as far down market as any former "Premium" luxury automaker can and still be taken reasonably seriously.

 

[mark0101]

The wrong-wheel-drive issue isn't the only one, but it's the major problem. When comparing the MKS and any other Lincoln vehicle (except the Town Car) to other "premium" luxury cars, it is not in the same clas. Most other premium luxury cars today are RWD. Even Hyundai for crap sake has a RWD, V-8 powered luxury sedan!!! According to market trends, people who can afford the exuberent prices of premium luxury sedans prefer RWD. That's why RWD is making a major comeback and why you'll never see a FWD BMW, Mercedes, or Jaguar, among others.

I don't think I stated that but I would never go for the FWD car. If I were to suggest a car to my dad, it would be the Ecoboost AWD one.

Then why not just put a V-8 in it? Just think what an Ecoboost V-8 could do!

Because people think V8 automatically means it would take more gas than a V6 would.

That may be true. I haven't done much extensive research into the car. But what I can see is the goofy FWD proportions of the MKS compared to the elegant and balanced proportions of the other RWD sedans in the premium luxury class. That's another area where the MKS sorely lacks. But I must disagree about the Cadillac. It's a damn nice car, inside and out, in my opinion. If I could afford one, I'd take it over anything from Lincoln.

Sorry but the STS is lacking many features that a luxury car should have in it's price range. Also, I just don't like the "flat" look the STS has.

The Northstar is still available. Apparently, no more "V" series though. Bummer.

Look at a 2011 STS, it is ONLY offered with a V6.

The MKS is not similar to the Town Car It's wrong-wheel-drive with a sideways mounted engine and unibody. It's not even close to being as big and fluffy as a Town Car. And did I mention it was FWD with a sideways engine??? I'd take a Town Car any day over this thing. But that's just me.

And what other car in its price range has as much space? (interior and trunk) Unless you give more $$$ to move up to the LS460. The MKS is the closest to the TC in terms of what it offers in space, price and luxury options that cars have today.

It's not a bad thing for an "entry level" luxury car. But not good for a car claiming to be a "premium" luxury sedan. Some folks, if they were actually aware of it, would balk at paying that kind of money for what is essentially a Taurus in a suit and tie.

It's not a big deal for me. As for my dad, he would look for the status symbol even though IMO, Ford Taurus is a much better car.

 

[thaywood]

I don't think I stated that but I would never go for the FWD car. If I were to suggest a car to my dad, it would be the Ecoboost AWD one.

You do realize that even with the part-time AWD system, the MKS is still a sideways engined FWD car 99% of the time, right?

Because people think V8 automatically means it would take more gas than a V6 would.

And it probably would. But if you can afford the price of one of these, gas cost probably isn't a problem.

Sorry but the STS is lacking many features that a luxury car should have in it's price range. Also, I just don't like the "flat" look the STS has.

Like what? It looks pretty well equipped to me. But that's my opinion. I'm easy to please.

Look at a 2011 STS, it is ONLY offered with a V6.

I did. According to Cadillac, you can still get the 320hp 4.6L DOHC Northstar V-8. There's just no "V" series anymore. The CTS, however, is only offered with the V-6 unless you opt for the "V" series with the 556hp 6.2L supercharged V-8.

Edit: Ya know what, you're right. I was mistaken. I was looking at the 2010 specs. It appears that GM has indeed yanked the V-8 from the STS for 2011. And that sucks donkey yarbles. Well, at least it's still REAR-WHEEL-DRIVE.

And what other car in its price range has as much space? (interior and trunk) Unless you give more $$$ to move up to the LS460. The MKS is the closest to the TC in terms of what it offers in space, price and luxury options that cars have today.

But that's it. The Town Car, in my opinion, is a better car. It's RWD with a real V-8 and a chassis under it. Unfortunately, it is underpowered and still has the pre-historic log axle out back. But that's okay with me. I love Town Cars. I've owned several of them. I would rather have that dinosaur than that FWD MKS or any other "modern" Lincoln.

It's not a big deal for me. As for my dad, he would look for the status symbol even though IMO, Ford Taurus is a much better car.

For me, it is a big deal. Even if I could afford it, I couldn't justify the premium price for what is essentially a Taurus in a silk suit.

 

[Aquabrit]

Even if I could afford it, I couldn't justify the premium price for what is essentially a Taurus in a silk suit.

Heck, if I had that kinda' money hanging around, I'd rather just buy a used premium brand car like a BMW Alpina B7/Mercedes-Benz S-Class/Audi A8. At least that way, somebody else has already taken the huge depreciation hit.

 

[mark0101]

You do realize that even with the part-time AWD system, the MKS is still a sideways engined FWD car 99% of the time, right?

Yes but in normal driving I don't think it will matter which wheels are spinning. As long as it doesn't have torque steer off the line, its all fine by me. Obvious if you are going to drive it around the track or do spirited driving, you will notice it. But then again that is not what the MKS is made for.

And it probably would. But if you can afford the price of one of these, gas cost probably isn't a problem.

Ehh...I guess.

Like what? It looks pretty well equipped to me. But that's my opinion. I'm easy to please.

MKS has a collision warning system, adaptive headlights, kepad, rear-view camera, rear power sunshade, and the automatic parallel parking thing(it's still nice to have)

STS has heads-up display, heated steering wheel, manual side shades and that is it I think.

MKS definitely has the edge on features. Also IMO it has a better navi/media center.

 

[Whiterocksrt8]

Thaywood makes a lot of good points. Most importantly is the fact that FWD is wrong wheel drive. Also, the Mark VIII was the last performance lincoln. However, I expect an offering from Lincoln sometime in the near future to compete with the CTSV coupe. RWD and High HP. The current lincolns are simply crossbred fords/mazda/volvo aboniations with some fluff attached.



BTW Chrysler (when married up with daimler) nailed it back in 2005+ in the RWD catagory (Yes the 300C and 300SRT8 are luxury cars albiet not coupes). I have had many and you simply cant beat them.

Thanks.

 

[thaywood]

I'm glad I"m not the only one who doesn't care for FWD. The way I see it, FWD is fine for cheapo Korean econoboxes, but not for real cars. Cars like Lincolns should be RWD simply because they are "upper crust" luxury automobiles...at least they used to be. You'll never see FWD Mercedes or BMW. Some Audi's are FWD, but the higher-end models are AWD with a rear-bias. All Jaguars are RWD. The only FWD Lexus's are the Camry-In-A-Tuxedo ES-3XX and the RX3XX CUV. All the rest are RWD. All Infiniti's are RWD. The DTS and SRX are the only FWD Caddillacs. The bottom line is that if a company is going to build premium luxury cars to compete in the higher-priced market, the cars need to be RWD like their competition. Lincoln will never be in the same class as any of the above brands as long as they keep building overpriced, gussied-up Tauruses and Fusions.

 

[TWRPWR]

Canada

I'm glad I"m not the only one who doesn't care for FWD. The way I see it, FWD is fine for cheapo Korean econoboxes, but not for real cars. Cars like Lincolns should be RWD simply because they are "upper crust" luxury automobiles...at least they used to be. You'll never see FWD Mercedes or BMW. Some Audi's are FWD, but the higher-end models are AWD with a rear-bias. All Jaguars are RWD. The only FWD Lexus's are the Camry-In-A-Tuxedo ES-3XX and the RX3XX CUV. All the rest are RWD. All Infiniti's are RWD. The DTS and SRX are the only FWD Caddillacs. The bottom line is that if a company is going to build premium luxury cars to compete in the higher-priced market, the cars need to be RWD like their competition. Lincoln will never be in the same class as any of the above brands as long as they keep building overpriced, gussied-up Tauruses and Fusions.

So let's just forget about Canada and pretend this market doesn't exist. There are other countries in the world besides the good ole USA.

 

[thaywood]

So let's just forget about Canada and pretend this market doesn't exist. There are other countries in the world besides the good ole USA.

Very true. And in every one of those countries, Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW, Infiniti, Cadillac, Lexus, and Audi sell RWD premium luxury cars. Lincoln? Not so much.