Is Lincoln Still A "Premium" Luxury Division?

[BrklynExpress]

Ill chime in here.
I leased an MKS Ecoboost appearance package october 5th. I sold my Lincoln LS 05 and used some of the money for a down payment. I've posted pics here before.

The Bad:
Torque steer. Better hold on to that wheel. Not all the time, but sometimes when flooring it it swings wildly to one side. It almost slipped out of my hand one time. ON AN AWD CAR..HOW THE HECK DO YOU HAVE TORQUE STEER ON AN AWD?

The car dives on sharper stops. Cannot touch the handling of the LS. The handling isn't bad, but according to Ford, the ecoboost package has an updated sport suspension. Yeah right. ride is tight and comfortable, but handling isnt anything to brag about in the european luxury circle of friends. Again, not bad, and not a big deal, but not performance oriented. Definitely more on the comfortable side.

Fuel Economy. Forget the ecoboost hype. Downright tragic fuel economy. in the city in stop and go, I am lucky to keep it anywhere above 10. NYC driving with AC blowing? better be lucky to get above 8 mpg.
Already had an oil change and the tech said it has broken it already. MPG went up about 1 mpg across the board.
30 mph cruise with some red lights, I barely hit 15 16.
On the highway, I can get some amazing mileage. I've hit 30.5 on a 58 mph cruise with no climate on.

Build Quality.
This falls in the good and the bad. Where it is good, it is amazing. But wherever you can't see, but at some point will touch and notice, it reeks of cost cutting. lower part of door panels, a few gaps (specifically the lit up plate on the bottom of the door sill).

Transmission
My transmission went out last sunday. Had it towed to the dealer to get it fixed. She doesn't drive quite the same and you can feel the shift sometimes.
Replaced a few things in the tranny. (dont have the work order in front of me)
It would slam into gear violently and not shift past 3rd.

The good:
entertainment
Sync, navi with traffic, sound system, all incredible. I love it. Bluetooth phone always connects automatically, loud and clear, I can watch DVD's, stream bluetooth video, and it the traffic update saved me from a HUGE traffic jam. Voice recognition is downright amazing. Understands everything, unlike the joke that the LS navi had. My friends went from making jokes about the voice activated Navi to being downright impressed with the Sync system.


Looks
Nobody except one other person i know has the appearance package. Blacked out headlights, monochrome paint, 20 inch chrome wheels. Complements all the time.
People ask me what the car is, and are amazed at how sexy it looks.

Performance
Here we go. This is what counts. The car pulls like a bat out of hell. I'm amazed at how quickly it gets out of its own way, for the large behemoth that it is. I had the 3.7 litre v6 fwd as a rental while the tranny was out, and I couldn't really complain for what it was. The ecoboost is a different animal. Much faster than my Lincoln LS. Gets up to speed very fast and you don't feel how fast it is moving.

other comments
No exhaust note. But it is a lincoln after all.
One speaker has started rattling on and off. Not terrible, and only if you pay attention.
USB input and mp3 line in is nice. Ambient lighting is great. One of the things I enjoy about the car.

Overall, I like the car. I took it on a trip, 4 hours of driving, and it was comfortable and relaxing. The ride was soft, traffic was always updated, and the adaptive cruise did all the work. 25-28 mpg depending on cruise speed.
And that is where the MKS does it's job best. Long trips, cruising in comfort, using all the entertainment options. Lots of legroom and trunk room. The brown optional leather is very soft and comfortable.

Gas mileage (particularly on something called...Ecoboost), is embarrasing, and the transmission failure is a joke. I like the MKS, just not MY mks.
I want my LS back, or an MKS that works normally.

NOTICE THE GAP IN THE FIRST PICTURE>>>on the sides of the lighted sill plate.!!!

 

[mark0101]

Torque steer. Better hold on to that wheel. Not all the time, but sometimes when flooring it it swings wildly to one side. It almost slipped out of my hand one time. ON AN AWD CAR..HOW THE HECK DO YOU HAVE TORQUE STEER ON AN AWD?

Now that is a deal breaker

The transmission going out is really a bumper. Did they say why it went out? It's sounding more and more like the Continental with torque steer and a weak transmission that should belong on a lesser HP engine.

 

[thaywood]

The Bad:
Torque steer. Better hold on to that wheel. Not all the time, but sometimes when flooring it it swings wildly to one side. It almost slipped out of my hand one time. ON AN AWD CAR..HOW THE HECK DO YOU HAVE TORQUE STEER ON AN AWD?

The reason for the torque steer even though it is AWD is because it is a "part-time" AWD system. 99% of the time, the car is FWD. The rears only engage when the computer senses front wheel slip. Under all but the most severe driving conditions, you are driving a FWD car. If it were a full-time AWD system, like Audi, Subaru, Acura, or any other typical rear-biased AWD vehicle (yes, the Acura SH-AWD system is rear-biased), there would be no torque steer. Such is the tragedy of a powerful engine in a wrong-wheel-drive car.

 

[BrklynExpress]

The reason for the torque steer even though it is AWD is because it is a "part-time" AWD system. 99% of the time, the car is FWD. The rears only engage when the computer senses front wheel slip. Under all but the most severe driving conditions, you are driving a FWD car. If it were a full-time AWD system, like Audi, Subaru, Acura, or any other typical rear-biased AWD vehicle (yes, the Acura SH-AWD system is rear-biased), there would be no torque steer. Such is the tragedy of a powerful engine in a wrong-wheel-drive car.

But under heavy acceleration I would imagine at least 50% of the power goes to the rear. I drove the FWD 3.7 v6 MKS, and on pushing hard on the gas, the front wheels would spin. On dry pavement... That NEVER happens on my car. Even when the pavement is wet, it almost never slips.
It can't be 99% of the time FWD. There is always at least some power going to the rear. Otherwise my front tires would spin on dry pavement.
In 8 inches of snow, the rear wheels were actively spinning. All the time. So at least in snow it was awesome.
Looks like Ill put the car up on leasetrader.

 

[chris2523]

But under heavy acceleration I would imagine at least 50% of the power goes to the rear. I drove the FWD 3.7 v6 MKS, and on pushing hard on the gas, the front wheels would spin. On dry pavement... That NEVER happens on my car. Even when the pavement is wet, it almost never slips.
It can't be 99% of the time FWD. There is always at least some power going to the rear. Otherwise my front tires would spin on dry pavement.
In 8 inches of snow, the rear wheels were actively spinning. All the time. So at least in snow it was awesome.
Looks like Ill put the car up on leasetrader.

yes, but. even in my dad's diesel truck, there is a bit of torque steer in 4wd when you punch it. if there is power going to the front wheels, its probably gonna pull a little bit.

 

[thaywood]

Ya know what? I have to admit that I was mistaken on one point. The MKS's AWD system is full time. I did a little more research and found that the AWD system in the MKS as well as the Taurus SHO is basically the Volvo HALDEX system. In the MKS and SHO it is set for a 55/45 front/rear torque split. And up to 100% of the engine's power can be directed to the front or rear at any given time depending on traction parameters. Unfortunately, the front-bias means that with that much power going mostly to the front wheels, there will still be torque steer off the line. Had they gone the more conventional route and made it rear-bised like most other premium AWD luxury cars, torque-steer would be nonexistent. You'll never hear of torque steer in an AWD Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac, Audi, etc.

 

[mark0101]

Ya know what? I have to admit that I was mistaken on one point. The MKS's AWD system is full time. I did a little more research and found that the AWD system in the MKS as well as the Taurus SHO is basically the Volvo HALDEX system. In the MKS and SHO it is set for a 55/45 front/rear torque split. And up to 100% of the engine's power can be directed to the front or rear at any given time depending on traction parameters. Unfortunately, the front-bias means that with that much power going mostly to the front wheels, there will still be torque steer off the line. Had they gone the more conventional route and made it rear-bised like most other premium AWD luxury cars, torque-steer would be nonexistent. You'll never hear of torque steer in an AWD Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac, Audi, etc.

So can you not get a tune to change that to say 40/60 (FWD to RWD) or is that not possible?

 

[thaywood]

So can you not get a tune to change that to say 40/60 (FWD to RWD) or is that not possible?

That's a good question. It would be nice if it were possible. And I don't see why it wouldn't be. The whole thing's controlled by the computer. If you remember, the old Jaguar X-Type was based on the Ford Mondeo FWD platform with a sideways engine. But it had full-time AWD with rear bias because Jaguar knew its customers wouldn't buy a car they knew was FWD. So there's no reason Lincoln couldn't do the same thing. I'll do some checking. It's got to be possible.

 

[doug03ls]

I have to agree w/thaywood. Lincoln really screwed the pooch when they went to FWD.
I just read an article that Lincoln sales are down 36% from last year. They are doing terrible. The local L/M dealer just shut his doors in Chesapeake, another Ford dealer took over the Lincoln franchise. I can't tell you the last time I saw an MKS on the road. I did see an MKT the other day. First time in months I have seen one. Lincoln sold less than 100,000 vehicles last year. They definitely have a problem.

 

[thaywood]

Yep. Unfortunately, Lincoln may go the way of Mercury, Plymouth, Olds, Saturn, and Pontiac in the near future. I would hate to see that happen. I'm a Lincoln man. But my Lincoln would be big, heavy, RWD, and powered by a 460 V-8 with 500 Ft-Lbs of torque!!!

PS - I saw a sort of interview with a BMW exec on a news channel recently when I was sitting at McDonald's. He was asked about competition from several different luxury makes like Mercedes, Lexus and Cadillac. When asked about competition from Lincoln, he just rolled his eyes, snickered, and said BMW didn't even bother worrying about Lincoln. That's a slap in the face to Lincoln and all its loyalists. Ford needs to wake the hell up.

 

[Aquabrit]

When asked about competition from Lincoln, he just rolled his eyes, snickered, and said BMW didn't even bother worrying about Lincoln.

And why would they? Lincoln can't even dominate it's home market, let alone the foreign ones. Ford wasted too much time and money on Jaguar and other junk and neglected Lincoln.

 

[doug03ls]

Another article also gave the statistic that Lincoln had the lowest owner loyalty of all the luxury brands. Around 40%. On a positive note , the CEO of Ford met w/dealers and told them that Ford is making a commitment to rejuvenate the Lincoln brand. If I was the CEO I would fire the bean counter who canceled the LS.

 

[thaywood]

And why would they? Lincoln can't even dominate it's home market, let alone the foreign ones. Ford wasted too much time and money on Jaguar and other junk and neglected Lincoln.

This is true. If Ford had any sense, they would have shared more parts and platforms between Jag and Lincoln. Using Jag platforms and mechanicals, Lincoln could have been able to compete with BMW and Mercedes. But with the demise of the PAG and Ford's sale of Jag and Aston Martin, Lincoln's future as a premium luxury marque was effectively ended. Now Lincoln is nothing more than a Ford in a silk suit. That's sad indeed.

Another article also gave the statistic that Lincoln had the lowest owner loyalty of all the luxury brands. Around 40%. On a positive note , the CEO of Ford met w/dealers and told them that Ford is making a commitment to rejuvenate the Lincoln brand. If I was the CEO I would fire the bean counter who canceled the LS.

Dam skippy! Lincoln needs another car like the LS. RWD with 6 and 8 cylinder power, great handling chassis, piles of luxury, and a good looking body...wait...they already have this car. It's called the Falcon. And, unfortunately, it's only sold in Australia in right-hand-drive. But that's the car Ford needs here in the USA. But they don't have the sense to see it.

 

[thaywood]

This is the 2011 Falcon FPV-GT Boss 315. This car could save Lincoln. Put a Lincoln grille on it and call it the Continental, or something. But Ford will never do it.

 

[BrklynExpress]

More trouble. check engine light is blinking, and the car doesn't want to accelerate. Hesistates, and there is a popping whistling noise as soon as I accelerate. Not happy with the car. I want to get rid of this lease.

 

[thaywood]

More trouble. check engine light is blinking, and the car doesn't want to accelerate. Hesistates, and there is a popping whistling noise as soon as I accelerate. Not happy with the car. I want to get rid of this lease.

Sorry to hear that. That should all be covered under warranty. And the popping and whistling noise sounds like a timing problem.

 

[thaywood]

Wow. No activity on the MKS forum in almost a month. That's horrible. The Mark VIII forum has something going on every single day. Of course, the Mark VIII is a RWD, V-8 powered premium luxury car, unlike the MKS. So I would expect that it would have a more loyal following than the "Taurus-in-a-tux" MKS...

 

[germeezy1]

More trouble. check engine light is blinking, and the car doesn't want to accelerate. Hesistates, and there is a popping whistling noise as soon as I accelerate. Not happy with the car. I want to get rid of this lease.

Time to lemon law that puppy, check your state laws. And anyone who thinks Lincoln is still a credible luxury make please put down thte Lincoln Kool Aid. It saddens me but I predicted there demise many years ago when the incredibly smart people than at Ford decided that Lincoln would not be part of PAG. So Aston, Land Rover, and Jaguar were part of PAG but Lincoln was not good enough in there eyes. Fast forward to today and Lincoln is basically a Ford trim package.

I always thought since the Panther/ Town Car platform is paid for why not build a new school Town car instead of the current car. Either a 5.0 or 6.2 engine and 6 speed auto. They could make it Lincoln's return to traditional luxury. Since the chassis has been paid for they could really make it nice on the inside and bring back the retro Town car styling and even bring back hidden headlights.

Than make a new Lincoln LS based on the Ford Falcon and a new Mark 8 based on the Mustang chassis. Ford has a lot of good platforms the problem is making them noticeably different by the way they drive and look. Lexus really has it down, its cars also are based on mass market Toyotas but they look and drive different enough to make them worth the price premium.

 

[thaywood]

Time to lemon law that puppy, check your state laws. And anyone who thinks Lincoln is still a credible luxury make please put down thte Lincoln Kool Aid. It saddens me but I predicted there demise many years ago when the incredibly smart people than at Ford decided that Lincoln would not be part of PAG. So Aston, Land Rover, and Jaguar were part of PAG but Lincoln was not good enough in there eyes. Fast forward to today and Lincoln is basically a Ford trim package.

I agree.

I always thought since the Panther/ Town Car platform is paid for why not build a new school Town car instead of the current car. Either a 5.0 or 6.2 engine and 6 speed auto. They could make it Lincoln's return to traditional luxury. Since the chassis has been paid for they could really make it nice on the inside and bring back the retro Town car styling and even bring back hidden headlights.

That would be sweet! That's been something that's been on my mind for years. Why not upgrade the ol' Panther platform? It would even be possible to put IRS on that chassis. All they would have to do is use the IRS setup from the old Explorer chassis and graft it onto the Panther. Then put a 400hp 5.0L V-8 as the standard engine with a 450hp+ 6.2L V-8 as an option with a 6-speed auto as standard. Then upgrade the interior with buckets/console/floor shifter like every other premium luxury sedan in the world and they'd be good to go.

Than make a new Lincoln LS based on the Ford Falcon and a new Mark 8 based on the Mustang chassis. Ford has a lot of good platforms the problem is making them noticeably different by the way they drive and look. Lexus really has it down, its cars also are based on mass market Toyotas but they look and drive different enough to make them worth the price premium.

Ford needs to do exactly that. I've been saying it for years. Lincoln needs to distance itself from Ford in order to be taken seriously as a luxury brand. All of Lincoln's vehicles are obviously re-bodied Fords and everybody knows it. That's why they're not selling. Add to that the fact that they're all wrong-wheel-drive. People who can afford to buy high-class premium luxury cars don't want plebian FWD platforms. They want RWD. That's why you'll never see a FWD Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, etc. As far as Lexus, the LS is not based on a garden variety Toyota. It's RWD and built on a platform that's unique, I'm pretty sure.

 

[germeezy1]

Ford needs to do exactly that. I've been saying it for years. Lincoln needs to distance itself from Ford in order to be taken seriously as a luxury brand. All of Lincoln's vehicles are obviously re-bodied Fords and everybody knows it. That's why they're not selling. Add to that the fact that they're all wrong-wheel-drive. People who can afford to buy high-class premium luxury cars don't want plebian FWD platforms. They want RWD. That's why you'll never see a FWD Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, etc. As far as Lexus, the LS is not based on a garden variety Toyota. It's RWD and built on a platform that's unique, I'm pretty sure.

The LS is based on the Toyota Celsior which is a Japan only car, Lexus has done a great job as has Infiniti of using cars as a base that are not available in the US. Also they do a good job at sharing the chassis but being able to drive and look completely different to justify a price premium. But again it takes investment in them by Ford, and they are at least 3-5 years behind Cadillac as far as changing brand perception.

 

[thaywood]

The LS is based on the Toyota Celsior which is a Japan only car

Hmmm. Didn't know that. Well, ya learn somethin' new every day!

Lexus has done a great job as has Infiniti of using cars as a base that are not available in the US. Also they do a good job at sharing the chassis but being able to drive and look completely different to justify a price premium. But again it takes investment in them by Ford, and they are at least 3-5 years behind Cadillac as far as changing brand perception.

This is all true. To me, the Lexus ES is the only one that doesn't live up to its price premium. It's obviously gussied-up Camry. As for the rest of the Lexus line, I have to agree. And you're right, Lincoln has a looooooooooooooong way to go to get to where Caddy is right now. It's going to take some serious investment and some risk-taking on the part of FoMoCo to get Lincoln back up to its former glory. And they won't be able to do it with a bunch of wrong-wheel-drive sissymobiles. They need some good ol' American Rear-Wheel-Drive V-8 muscle to compete with Cadillac and the rest. But I just don't see it happening. Think about it, if Ford thought it was a good idea to turn the Explorer into a FWD minivan wannabe, I shudder to think what they'll do with Lincoln in the future.

 

[Coherent]

Hmmm. Didn't know that. Well, ya learn somethin' new every day!



This is all true. To me, the Lexus ES is the only one that doesn't live up to its price premium. It's obviously gussied-up Camry. As for the rest of the Lexus line, I have to agree. And you're right, Lincoln has a looooooooooooooong way to go to get to where Caddy is right now. It's going to take some serious investment and some risk-taking on the part of FoMoCo to get Lincoln back up to its former glory. And they won't be able to do it with a bunch of wrong-wheel-drive sissymobiles. They need some good ol' American Rear-Wheel-Drive V-8 muscle to compete with Cadillac and the rest. But I just don't see it happening. Think about it, if Ford thought it was a good idea to turn the Explorer into a FWD minivan wannabe, I shudder to think what they'll do with Lincoln in the future.

What's really dumb is how they claim they're using V6 engines for the fuel economy. I mean the new MKS really only gets a few mpg more than the Mark VIII with a big v8. The people who are gonna drop $50K on a new car are rich enough that they don't care that much about a few mpg. They want a badass car with a V8 and RWD. That's why you see so many bigass Escalades around. Keep the v6/fwd for the family sedans like the Taurus.

 

[thaywood]

What's really dumb is how they claim they're using V6 engines for the fuel economy. I mean the new MKS really only gets a few mpg more than the Mark VIII with a big v8.

I agree completely. If all they're concerned with is displacement, why not just build a small displacement V-8? Volvo has a 4.1L in the XC-90 that's basically a bored and stroked version of the old 3.4L 60-degree DOHC Taurus SHO V-8. Would not a 3.5L or 3.7L V-8 get comparable gas mileage to a similar displacement V-6? Fewer cylinders do not always equal better fuel economy. It all has to do with displacement. Not to mention that a small displacement V-8 engine would have small pistons with less surface area that would produce fewer emissions. I'm just not a fan of the V-6 engine. Never have been. And a (former) prestige luxury car like Lincoln should never, ever have a V-6 as the only available engine.

The people who are gonna drop $50K on a new car are rich enough that they don't care that much about a few mpg. They want a badass car with a V8 and RWD. That's why you see so many bigass Escalades around. Keep the v6/fwd for the family sedans like the Taurus.

Again, I agree completely! V-6 engines are fine for plebeian family sedans like Tauruses, Accords, Camrys, and Elantras. But big, premium luxury sport sedans should be Rear-Wheel-Drive with big, honkin' V-8 engines under their hoods! That's just the way it is. Cadillac knows this. BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar...hell, even Hyundai for God's sake knows this!!! WTF is wrong with Ford????

 

[thaywood]

I recently read in a sidebar article in one of the big car mags (MT, C&D, R&T, one or the other, I can't remember) that Lincoln brass are well aware of the sad state of affairs Lincoln is in right now. They are also well aware that Lincoln needs a flagship Rear-Wheel-Drive car to be competetive. They also know that Lincoln is basically perceived as nothing more than a Ford in a silk suit but the Ford brass won't let Lincoln have the money or resources they need to produce a real RWD luxury car to change that perception. Lincoln management is worried that the division may not be around much longer if Ford won't let them upgrade or expand. It'll be a sad day when Lincoln dies. But it's going to happen. It's just a matter of time. Then Caddy will have the American luxury market all to itself.

 

[Aquabrit]

The current future plan:

http://www.fordinsidenews.com/forum...sibly-named-MkD-MkC-confirmed-Aviator-reborn&

Not good, in my opinion. Also, I'm SICK TO DEATH of that silly 'MK bla bla bla' name on virtually everything.