Islamic Jihad in France?

MonsterMark

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How can this be??? They didn't invade Iraq. I thought if you didn't poke the bee hive, you wouldn't get stung? Hummm. And the Democrats have guys like Kerry and Clinton that worship France.

Paris under attack...

It was neither, in fact, and Paris—the capital known to tourists—was not burning. But by using cell-phone text messages to coordinate their incendiary flash-mobs, rioters in the city's suburbs managed to burn thousands of cars, as well as buses, warehouses and stores. More than 200 people were arrested and there were many injuries, some serious, even if by last weekend no one had been killed. (The Los Angeles riots of 1992, by contrast, took the lives of more than 50 people.) What really shook the French government, and badly, was its inability to contain the metastasizing anger. Decades of French policies intended to force the integration of immigrants and their children—and children's children—into French society had failed, and no Plan B was apparent. Fears also grew that in the age of terror, rage like this could swell the ranks of radical Islamists in the heart of Europe.
 
And as of this morning, the violence is spreading, and there has been the first fatality.

This lays to rest the argument that the United States is the cause of unrest in the Muslim world. No country more than France has practiced the appeasement policies the Left wishs on the United States.
 
What really disturbes me is the attempt to give these thugs some sort of valid reason for their actions. This abhorrent policy of the left to try to blame all but the criminal lends credibility to the lawless. It is apparent the the socialists have been in charge of the Republic of France for far too long.
 
...

francesurrenders3tq.jpg
 
Are you saying a mass army of Muslim Extremist sacked Paris? I didn't get that from the article. Looks like a bunch of thieving a$$holes looking for any excuse to vandalize and loot. Reminded me of Los Angeles during the Rodney King trial on a larger scale.
 
I like Taheri

I like Taheri's analysis of this situation...

WHY PARIS IS BURNING

By AMIR TAHERI
________________________________________
November 4, 2005 -- AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start — and the pattern is always the same.
Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars, break shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and ransack cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the scene, the rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.
The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions, blank shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back — with real bullets.
These scenes are not from the West Bank but from 20 French cities, mostly close to Paris, that have been plunged into a European version of the intifada that at the time of writing appears beyond control.
The troubles first began in Clichy-sous-Bois, an underprivileged suburb east of Paris, a week ago. France's bombastic interior minister, Nicholas Sarkozy, responded by sending over 400 heavily armed policemen to "impose the laws of the republic," and promised to crush "the louts and hooligans" within the day. Within a few days, however, it had dawned on anyone who wanted to know that this was no "outburst by criminal elements" that could be handled with a mixture of braggadocio and batons.
By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented crisis." Both Sarkozy and his boss, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, had to cancel foreign trips to deal with the riots.
How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last week, a group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their favorite sports: stealing parts of parked cars.
Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have not been present in that suburb for years.
The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody, telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do something — which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a no-go area for them.
Once the police arrived on the scene, the youths — who had been reigning over Clichy pretty unmolested for years — got really angry. A brief chase took place in the street, and two of the youths, who were not actually chased by the police, sought refuge in a cordoned-off area housing a power pylon. Both were electrocuted.
Once news of their deaths was out, Clichy was all up in arms.
With cries of "God is great," bands of youths armed with whatever they could get hold of went on a rampage and forced the police to flee.
The French authorities could not allow a band of youths to expel the police from French territory. So they hit back — sending in Special Forces, known as the CRS, with armored cars and tough rules of engagement.
Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and the issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the rioters that the French police leave the "occupied territories." By midweek, the riots had spread to three of the provinces neighboring Paris, with a population of 5.5 million.
But who lives in the affected areas? In Clichy itself, more than 80 percent of the inhabitants are Muslim immigrants or their children, mostly from Arab and black Africa. In other affected towns, the Muslim immigrant community accounts for 30 percent to 60 percent of the population. But these are not the only figures that matter. Average unemployment in the affected areas is estimated at around 30 percent and, when it comes to young would-be workers, reaches 60 percent.
In these suburban towns, built in the 1950s in imitation of the Soviet social housing of the Stalinist era, people live in crammed conditions, sometimes several generations in a tiny apartment, and see "real French life" only on television.
The French used to flatter themselves for the success of their policy of assimilation, which was supposed to turn immigrants from any background into "proper Frenchmen" within a generation at most.
That policy worked as long as immigrants came to France in drips and drops and thus could merge into a much larger mainstream. Assimilation, however, cannot work when in most schools in the affected areas, fewer than 20 percent of the pupils are native French speakers.
France has also lost another powerful mechanism for assimilation: the obligatory military service abolished in the 1990s.
As the number of immigrants and their descendants increases in a particular locality, more and more of its native French inhabitants leave for "calmer places," thus making assimilation still more difficult.
In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to spend a whole life without ever encountering the need to speak French, let alone familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous French culture.
The result is often alienation. And that, in turn, gives radical Islamists an opportunity to propagate their message of religious and cultural apartheid.
Some are even calling for the areas where Muslims form a majority of the population to be reorganized on the basis of the "millet" system of the Ottoman Empire: Each religious community (millet) would enjoy the right to organize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with its religious beliefs.
In parts of France, a de facto millet system is already in place. In these areas, all women are obliged to wear the standardized Islamist "hijab" while most men grow their beards to the length prescribed by the sheiks.
The radicals have managed to chase away French shopkeepers selling alcohol and pork products, forced "places of sin," such as dancing halls, cinemas and theaters, to close down, and seized control of much of the local administration.


A reporter who spent last weekend in Clichy and its neighboring towns of Bondy, Aulnay-sous-Bois and Bobigny heard a single overarching message:

The French authorities should keep out.

"All we demand is to be left alone," said Mouloud Dahmani, one of the local "emirs" engaged in negotiations to persuade the French to withdraw the police and allow a committee of sheiks, mostly from the Muslim Brotherhood, to negotiate an end to the hostilities.
President Jacques Chirac and Premier de Villepin are especially sore because they had believed that their opposition to the toppling of Saddam Hussein in 2003 would give France a heroic image in the Muslim community.
That illusion has now been shattered — and the Chirac administration, already passing through a deepening political crisis, appears to be clueless about how to cope with what the Parisian daily France Soir has called a "ticking time bomb."


It is now clear that a good portion of France's Muslims not only refuse to assimilate into "the superior French culture," but firmly believe that Islam offers the highest forms of life to which all mankind should aspire.
So what is the solution? One solution, offered by Gilles Kepel, an adviser to Chirac on Islamic affairs, is the creation of "a new Andalusia" in which Christians and Muslims would live side by side and cooperate to create a new cultural synthesis.
The problem with Kepel's vision, however, is that it does not address the important issue of political power. Who will rule this new Andalusia: Muslims or the largely secularist Frenchmen?
Suddenly, French politics has become worth watching again, even though for the wrong reasons.
Amir Taheri, editor of the French quarterly "Politique internationale," is a member of Benador Associates.
 
That article indicates that kissing up to Muslim terrorists, trying to understand their anger, etc., like the French did, DOESN'T WORK.
 
Actually from what I understood the French had barred many muslim practices. In an effort to absorb these immigrants into their society.

In a interview with a journalist from Vanity Fair (didn't know they had those) the rioters were quoted as seeing Great Britain and the United States as a sort of paradise where they are allowed the freedom to live their lives as they see fit. To practice their religion without governmental interference.

Funny how this country that was so opposed to the Iraq war was the same government that was oppressing it's own people.
 
So contrary to your previous assertion the article you posted says that the French aren't socially forgiving and accepting liberals...their ideals and laws in fact more closely match that of a conservative.

Hrm...
 
raVeneyes said:
So contrary to your previous assertion the article you posted says that the French aren't socially forgiving and accepting liberals...their ideals and laws in fact more closely match that of a conservative.

Hrm...
WRONG!
 
MonsterMark said:

Ok, so what would you say the idea of converting all who come in to a country to match the culture of that country bases itself in? Liberalism, Conservatism, Communism, Socialism...?

I know the ideals of liberalism say that you should allow a person to practice their culture as they see fit in whatever way they see fit.

I know conservatism says that a person once on the shores of a new country should try to emulate those around him or her.

I know from the article that the French government had a policy of forcing people to drop their own culture in favor of French culture.

Where am I wrong?
 
raVeneyes said:
Where am I wrong?

1) The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions, blank shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back — with real bullets. [Liberal Response ~ give peace a chance.] [Conservative Response ~ Fight fire with fire.]

2) Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have not been present in that suburb for years. [Liberal response ~ ignore it and it will go away] [Conservative ~ confront the problem and get it handled.]

3) The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody, telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do something — which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a no-go area for them. [Liberals ~ too good for lowly black people and people that wear towels on their heads.]. [Conservatives ~ your welcome to live here, just obey the law.]

4) That policy worked as long as immigrants came to France in drips and drops and thus could merge into a much larger mainstream. Assimilation, however, cannot work when in most schools in the affected areas, fewer than 20 percent of the pupils are native French speakers. [Liberals ~ keep the dirty, ugly impoverished away from us, they are not deserving.] [Conservative ~ here's a bar of soap, go clean yourself up and join us for dinner.]

5) President Jacques Chirac and Premier de Villepin are especially sore because they had believed that their opposition to the toppling of Saddam Hussein in 2003 would give France a heroic image in the Muslim community. [Guess Chirac got the War on Terror all WRONG, eh!]

6) That illusion has now been shattered — and the Chirac administration, already passing through a deepening political crisis, appears to be clueless about how to cope with what the Parisian daily France Soir has called a "ticking time bomb." [Bush looks like a genius now, eh!]
 
MonsterMark said:
1) The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions, blank shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back — with real bullets. [Liberal Response ~ give peace a chance.] [Conservative Response ~ Fight fire with fire.]

2) Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have not been present in that suburb for years. [Liberal response ~ ignore it and it will go away] [Conservative ~ confront the problem and get it handled.]

3) The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody, telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do something — which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a no-go area for them. [Liberals ~ too good for lowly black people and people that wear towels on their heads.]. [Conservatives ~ your welcome to live here, just obey the law.]

4) That policy worked as long as immigrants came to France in drips and drops and thus could merge into a much larger mainstream. Assimilation, however, cannot work when in most schools in the affected areas, fewer than 20 percent of the pupils are native French speakers. [Liberals ~ keep the dirty, ugly impoverished away from us, they are not deserving.] [Conservative ~ here's a bar of soap, go clean yourself up and join us for dinner.]

5) President Jacques Chirac and Premier de Villepin are especially sore because they had believed that their opposition to the toppling of Saddam Hussein in 2003 would give France a heroic image in the Muslim community. [Guess Chirac got the War on Terror all WRONG, eh!]

6) That illusion has now been shattered — and the Chirac administration, already passing through a deepening political crisis, appears to be clueless about how to cope with what the Parisian daily France Soir has called a "ticking time bomb." [Bush looks like a genius now, eh!]

Outstanding. France, you are *owned*
 
They got what was commin to em.

Hay mabey the Germans can give them some guidance on how to deal with the situation...they always had good ways of dealing with problems ;)
 
MonsterMark said:
1) The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions, blank shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back — with real bullets. [Liberal Response ~ give peace a chance.] [Conservative Response ~ Fight fire with fire.]

2) Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have not been present in that suburb for years. [Liberal response ~ ignore it and it will go away] [Conservative ~ confront the problem and get it handled.]

3) The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody, telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do something — which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a no-go area for them. [Liberals ~ too good for lowly black people and people that wear towels on their heads.]. [Conservatives ~ your welcome to live here, just obey the law.]

4) That policy worked as long as immigrants came to France in drips and drops and thus could merge into a much larger mainstream. Assimilation, however, cannot work when in most schools in the affected areas, fewer than 20 percent of the pupils are native French speakers. [Liberals ~ keep the dirty, ugly impoverished away from us, they are not deserving.] [Conservative ~ here's a bar of soap, go clean yourself up and join us for dinner.]

5) President Jacques Chirac and Premier de Villepin are especially sore because they had believed that their opposition to the toppling of Saddam Hussein in 2003 would give France a heroic image in the Muslim community. [Guess Chirac got the War on Terror all WRONG, eh!]

6) That illusion has now been shattered — and the Chirac administration, already passing through a deepening political crisis, appears to be clueless about how to cope with what the Parisian daily France Soir has called a "ticking time bomb." [Bush looks like a genius now, eh!]

Firstly, the grand majority of how you feel liberals deal with the situations you quoted is just plain wrong.

Secondly, the way they dealt with this specific situation is not the way the government is designed to deal with immigrant populations overall... In general immigrants to France are expected to become French...the article is pointing out a breakdown of that ideology and a subsequent lack of knowledge on how to deal with multiculturalism.
 
raVeneyes said:
Firstly, the grand majority of how you feel liberals deal with the situations you quoted is just plain wrong.

Secondly, the way they dealt with this specific situation is not the way the government is designed to deal with immigrant populations overall... In general immigrants to France are expected to become French...the article is pointing out a breakdown of that ideology and a subsequent lack of knowledge on how to deal with multiculturalism.

It sounded like a pretty accurate description of Liberalism to me.

You have it completely wrong on multiculturalism. It is the fact that the immigrants haven't become French that's the problem. That's why historically the USA worked: the great "melting pot" caused us all to become AMERICANS, while still celebrating those traditions we brought with us.

Multiculturalism cannot mean, "live just like you never left home, completely apart from the rest of society," or Western Civilization will perish. Which is precisely what radical Islam has in mind.
 
I'm tired of hearing about multi-culturalism. How come I can't have a month devoted to my Italian American Heritage? My family wasn't over here from the beginning, so I'm just as new as some of these other folks. That is the fundemental problem, you can't make everyone feel special. My favorite quote, and I can't remember where I heard it is "You are special, just like everyone else" And then of course there is the added problem that multi-culturalism poses, and that is faction. That is the number one thing that will tear this country apart.
 
RB3 said:
You have it completely wrong on multiculturalism. It is the fact that the immigrants haven't become French that's the problem. That's why historically the USA worked: the great "melting pot" caused us all to become AMERICANS, while still celebrating those traditions we brought with us.
Bingo. What the French did was feel good about itself by having all these Muslims in their country. Problem is they stuck them all in a corner and tried to forget about them. That is where the 'faction' part comes in that MAllen talks about and that is why it is doomed to fail. RB3 hit the nail on the head. Nice work!
 
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You guys are so delusional that it's impossible to have a civilized discussion with you.

Are you people not able to read????

The French have a policy of non-acceptance!!! NON ACCEPTANCE!!!

HELLOOOOOOO!!!

They didn't put the islamic community in to little territories and attempt multiculturalism, they have a policy of not allowing people to practice their culture which pushed the islamic community in to tight, ghetto like, communities that were formed to keep the cultural identity of those being denied their cultural freedom. The French didn't make those communities, the communities were made as a by product of French conservatism!!!

F*CK It! If you want to be deluded and think that your back patting self aggrandizing makes any difference go ahead. The reality is that people like you will be left behind or marginalized because of your lack of ability to change and grow.
 
raVeneyes said:
The French didn't make those communities, the communities were made as a by product of French conservatism!!!

News Alert! France is now conservative. Attention women: You must now put your bras and shirts back on. LOL.

Read the article. The police don't touch the areas infected. What do you expect to happen when this is the attitude.

" The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody, telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do somethingwhich meant entering a city ....that... had been a no-go area for them."

Do we have no-go areas here in the US. Are they as widespread as in Franc'ee?

As stated here and elsewhere, liberalism requires the poor to be reliant upon the liberals for the liberals to maintain power. Simple as that.

Do more poor folks in the US vote Dem or Rep? Haven't the poor been voting Dem for more than 40 years? Is their plight no better? It is not? Why is that?

Liberalism (socialism) doesn't work.
 
raVeneyes said:
The reality is that people like you will be left behind or marginalized because of your lack of ability to change and grow.

Now I remember a time when I was a know-it-all college kid. I was going to the UW-Madison. One of the most liberal colleges in the country. I hated most of my professors because they were all whiny liberals. Then something happened to me.

I was hit in the face with reality. Utopia is not the protected world of academia. Utopia is facing and conquering the challenges of every day life. Pretty soon I was working. Pretty soon I was married. Had a mortgage or two. Kids. Responsibility. Change. I had to grow if my marriage was to survive and prosper. I had to change if I were to be a good father. I had to grow as a person if my business was to flourish.

Change and growth. Been there, done that.

The changes that will occur in your 20's won't be realized until you are in your 30's, and your 'mindset' will not have evolved into a concrete ideology until you are in your 40's.

I've had a close-up look at liberalism and quite frankly, it made me want to yack.:bash:
 
MonsterMark said:
The police don't touch the areas infected. What do you expect to happen when this is the attitude.

Do we have no-go areas here in the US. Are they as widespread as in Franc'ee?

The police didn't go there because they had been pushed out by organized crime and social resistance, much like parts of every major city in the US.

Yes we have no-go areas for cops here in the US...there were even some recent history events that were caused by those no-go areas. The Branch Dividian compound in Texas. The 'Move' area in Philadelphia.

New York, Philly, Chicago, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Kansas City MO., Kansas City KS., Oakland, Los Angeles; all have very large very well known ghettos which are self policed areas that are no-go for local government. Recent years have seen a decline of these areas in the US because of governmental action and positive community support. Examples would be Rendell in Philly where he towed over 3,000 derelict cars in one month while at the same time spending government money on arts programs to paint murals and put mosaics over some of the worst graffiti in the city causing a sudden drastic increase in community pride. Also, Guliani in New York forcing a clean up of Times Square.

The answer isn't cultural programs to force people to conform...nor a 'bar of soap' to get people to clean up. The answer is acceptance of different cultural backgrounds as equal contributors to a society.

The example I best know is that of Philly because I live here. Through support for the arts, Philadelphia is fast becoming a unified city. Arts are one thing every culture shares...all cultures draw, write, dance, cook, and play music. When cultures are suppressed and forced in to survival modes they stop producing art and become looked down upon. When they are supported they produce art and become intertwined with other nearby cultures due to that exposure. There is almost no 'black section' left to the city...nor a 'white section' nor an 'italian section'. They are fast becoming mixed and mingled...the last hold out seems to be the 'ritzy' section which I'm sure will out last all (after all, arrogance is a rich man's disease). It makes me proud to be part of that community and I hope that someone will look at the example of Philadelphia over the past 10 or so years and learn something from it.
 
MonsterMark said:
Now I remember a time when I was a know-it-all college kid. I was going to the UW-Madison. One of the most liberal colleges in the country. I hated most of my professors because they were all whiny liberals. Then something happened to me.

I was hit in the face with reality. Utopia is not the protected world of academia. Utopia is facing and conquering the challenges of every day life. Pretty soon I was working. Pretty soon I was married. Had a mortgage or two. Kids. Responsibility. Change. I had to grow if my marriage was to survive and prosper. I had to change if I were to be a good father. I had to grow as a person if my business was to flourish.
:

And that is being conservative? I thought that is just life...

Sounds like a lot of librals I know.
 
raVeneyes said:
Recent years have seen a decline of these areas in the US because of governmental action and positive community support. Examples would be Rendell in Philly where he towed over 3,000 derelict cars in one month.


yeah i remember that smart one. A family friend got his car towed because it was a "derelict" car, and lost his job because he couldnt get to work the next day...way to go RENDELL!
 

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