It's over, folks! Kiss America goodbye!

[foxpaws]

How many human lives are lost due to countries not being able to feed themselves due to lack of economic growth in THIS COUNTRY? So the United States cuts its emissions, forcing us to buy from other countries who DO NOT CUT THEIR EMISSIONS, thus causing loss of life in THOSE COUNTRIES.

Kyoto balances environmental caused loss of life as compared to economic caused loss of life.

As the country moves out of economic caused starvation, the Kyoto restrictions start ramping up so the environmental damages are as minimal as they can make it.

It is a balancing act, probably one that needs to be fine tuned, but one that must happen since we don't have any other off -planet options at this point.

So what's the difference? Wouldn't it be better to produce things here, where the standards for cleanliness are already high?

Foss. we create the 2nd largest carbon footprint per person in all the 'developed' nations - we are one of the dirtiest, not the cleanest. In fact, even if you take all the countries, even developing ones, we come in tenth dirtiest.

No. The WTO can not make us meet the arbitrary, unfair standards of Kyoto. There are better ways to reduce emissions than the so-called "cap and trade policy" that Obama is going to charge us with. And if the WTO attempts to undermine our sovereignty, then we have the ability to leave the organization at any time, something NONE of the countries involved with it want to see happen.

There is a reason Bush capitulated to WTO - they are real, they have real powers and they really aren't able to be bullied by the US... Cal, at some point you and the rest of the conservatives have to wake up to the fact that we aren't the big bully that everyone has to appease anymore. We are becoming the spoiled brats of the planet. The rest of the world is getting tired of supporting our extreme lifestyle.

In December 1994, the WTO was approved during a special lame-duck session of Congress. Incoming House Speaker Newt Gingrich, who supported the WTO, admitted that if the agreement to create the body were approved, the result would be "a very big transfer of power" from Congress to an unelected global body.

Adding cap and trade will not destroy our economy, some companies are already complying and using cap and trade. This scare tactic was used when the clean water laws were enacted. The industries cried that they couldn't meet standards, they would go out of business. It didn't happen, and now we have clean rivers and lakes, new industries sprung up to deal with industrial waste that had been flushed down our rivers, and we, and our planet are much better off. Having rivers catch fire wasn't good. seeing the sun as a red glowing ball through the brown cloud isn't good either.

Destroying the economy will cost more lives and reduce the quality of life of far more people. So take that propaganda else where.

And destroying our air and and water will destroy our planet, which includes our economy, our quality of life, life itself. You can't put this on hold because we are going through a tough economic time.

That's the 1990 bill, let's talk about the COST of the Obama plan-

A little surprised Cal - couldn't come back with a zinger on that one.The clean air act of 1990 ended up making money, on a very small investment. Investing in the environment is an economic investment as well as a planetary investment. New technologies mean money. We have an opportunity once again to create an whole new industry dealing with carbon output. We can sell it to the world, especially as Kyoto requirements kick in more and more.

So what will the cost of Obama's plan be? Maybe what we should be asking ourselves is what could the profit be regarding Obama's plan?

Short sighted enviromentals fail to understand that poor countries aren't very green. Prosperity is the only way to lead to better preservation, new technologies, and people with the free time to worry about "green" issues. Did you notice how quickly "the environment" fell on the list of American priorities once they realized we were in a recession/depression?

And short-sighted capitalists fail to understand that prosperity and the environment now go hand in hand. Cleaning the planet is going to be big business. We can create the technology that will give us prosperity and we can in turn sell that technology to other prosperous nations, meanwhile we all will be buying third world countries' goods, and directing them toward cleaning up their industries.

You still don't get the concept of not soiling where you live do you?

 

[fossten]

Kyoto balances environmental caused loss of life as compared to economic caused loss of life.

As the country moves out of economic caused starvation, the Kyoto restrictions start ramping up so the environmental damages are as minimal as they can make it.

It is a balancing act, probably one that needs to be fine tuned, but one that must happen since we don't have any other off -planet options at this point.

Tell that to Canada. They're begging off due to severe economic stress due to the Kyoto agreement.

Foss. we create the 2nd largest carbon footprint per person in all the 'developed' nations - we are one of the dirtiest, not the cleanest. In fact, even if you take all the countries, even developing ones, we come in tenth dirtiest.

ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT. I guess you didn't watch one minute of the Olympics.

You don't even know how to measure a carbon footprint. You're dealing with a fiction.

There is a reason Bush capitulated to WTO - they are real, they have real powers and they really aren't able to be bullied by the US... Cal, at some point you and the rest of the conservatives have to wake up to the fact that we aren't the big bully that everyone has to appease anymore. We are becoming the spoiled brats of the planet. The rest of the world is getting tired of supporting our extreme lifestyle.

Obama is only going to perpetuate and even increase that lifestyle.

Adding cap and trade will not destroy our economy, some companies are already complying and using cap and trade. This scare tactic was used when the clean water laws were enacted. The industries cried that they couldn't meet standards, they would go out of business. It didn't happen, and now we have clean rivers and lakes, new industries sprung up to deal with industrial waste that had been flushed down our rivers, and we, and our planet are much better off. Having rivers catch fire wasn't good. seeing the sun as a red glowing ball through the brown cloud isn't good either.

I thought America was one of the dirtiest countries on the planet. Funny. You can't have it both ways.

And destroying our air and and water will destroy our planet, which includes our economy, our quality of life, life itself. You can't put this on hold because we are going through a tough economic time.

You're so naive. We can't destroy our planet. But we can destroy ourselves by making stupid economic decisions.

A little surprised Cal - couldn't come back with a zinger on that one.The clean air act of 1990 ended up making money, on a very small investment. Investing in the environment is an economic investment as well as a planetary investment. New technologies mean money. We have an opportunity once again to create an whole new industry dealing with carbon output. We can sell it to the world, especially as Kyoto requirements kick in more and more.

There's already data that proves that green tech is a failure.

So what will the cost of Obama's plan be? Maybe what we should be asking ourselves is what could the profit be regarding Obama's plan?

Considering that government doesn't create wealth, the result will be less than zero.

And short-sighted capitalists fail to understand that prosperity and the environment now go hand in hand. Cleaning the planet is going to be big business. We can create the technology that will give us prosperity and we can in turn sell that technology to other prosperous nations, meanwhile we all will be buying third world countries' goods, and directing them toward cleaning up their industries.

Wrong. It's already failed. Again I direct you to Canada.

 

[sid grubbs]

Obama’s new budget: $25,000 per taxpayer

posted at 7:43 pm on February 26, 2009 by Allahpundit

I have nothing to offer you except links and despair. $3.6 trillion in spending divided by 139 million taxpayers equals $25,573.48 apiece. Just put it on my tab along with my student loans. Or better yet, put it on your kids’ tab: According to Boehner’s office, by 2019 the annual deficit will still be north of $700 billion and the national debt will stand a shade over … $15 trillion, almost double what it is now.

New taxes? Tapper’s run the numbers and says they’ll hit $1 trillion over the next 10 years, but (a) evidently that doesn’t include another $600 billion businesses will have to cough up as part of the new cap-and-trade program and (b) it assumes that the only new taxes levied will be on individuals making more than $250,000 and corporations, which of course is absurd. Read the Journal’s analysis of The One’s “2% lie” to see why. Quote:



How bad is it? Even Olympia Snowe sounds unhappy.

For good measure, one of the bill’s 9,000 earmarks comes courtesy of The One himself, left over from his Senate days when he was off on the trail every day railing against earmarks. And I haven’t even mentioned TARP II, which they’ve gone ahead and allotted $250 billion for on the assumption that most of the money given to the banks will be recouped. If it isn’t, then the true cost’s more like $750 billion, which would be slightly more than the original TARP that blew everyone’s mind back in September. That’s my only comment on this, really — how completely and dangerously inured I am now to unbelievably extravagant spending. And given the fact that 63% of the public’s already blessed the idea of a second stimulus, I can only assume they feel the same way. Gulp.

Since only 5% actually think and reason things out,,we can safely say that the other 95% just follow them around and do as they do. I think that's the 95% OBAMA's talking about.

 

[THEMOJOMAN]

Obama’s new budget: $25,000 per taxpayer

posted at 7:43 pm on February 26, 2009 by Allahpundit

I have nothing to offer you except links and despair. $3.6 trillion in spending divided by 139 million taxpayers equals $25,573.48 apiece. Just put it on my tab along with my student loans. Or better yet, put it on your kids’ tab: According to Boehner’s office, by 2019 the annual deficit will still be north of $700 billion and the national debt will stand a shade over … $15 trillion, almost double what it is now.

New taxes? Tapper’s run the numbers and says they’ll hit $1 trillion over the next 10 years, but (a) evidently that doesn’t include another $600 billion businesses will have to cough up as part of the new cap-and-trade program and (b) it assumes that the only new taxes levied will be on individuals making more than $250,000 and corporations, which of course is absurd. Read the Journal’s analysis of The One’s “2% lie” to see why. Quote:



How bad is it? Even Olympia Snowe sounds unhappy.

For good measure, one of the bill’s 9,000 earmarks comes courtesy of The One himself, left over from his Senate days when he was off on the trail every day railing against earmarks. And I haven’t even mentioned TARP II, which they’ve gone ahead and allotted $250 billion for on the assumption that most of the money given to the banks will be recouped. If it isn’t, then the true cost’s more like $750 billion, which would be slightly more than the original TARP that blew everyone’s mind back in September. That’s my only comment on this, really — how completely and dangerously inured I am now to unbelievably extravagant spending. And given the fact that 63% of the public’s already blessed the idea of a second stimulus, I can only assume they feel the same way. Gulp.

Remind me WHAT WAS THE EARMARK "the messiah" WANTED WHEN HE WAS A SENATOR??? THE PLAN IS TO GET AS MANY AS POSSIBLE DEPENDENT ON THE GOVERMENT TIT. It's called CONTROL BY THOSE WHO KNOW BEST.

 

[foxpaws]

ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT. I guess you didn't watch one minute of the Olympics.

You don't even know how to measure a carbon footprint. You're dealing with a fiction.

Yes, I do, I happen to know that China's carbon output is very small per person - did you miss that part Foss - they measure per person? Most of China barely pollutes at all - they live in a very agricultural based society, Kyoto looks at per person - I think China is way down to about 90th or so - we are 10th in the whole world...

Obama is only going to perpetuate and even increase that lifestyle.

???????

I thought America was one of the dirtiest countries on the planet. Funny. You can't have it both ways.

We are one of the dirtiest carbon based countries..

You're so naive. We can't destroy our planet. But we can destroy ourselves by making stupid economic decisions.

Yep, you are right, currently we can't destroy the planet - but we can destroy its capacity to support human life.

So, you want to be like the Canadians - move to Canada - oh that's right - you won't - Canada is socialistic...

 

[hrmwrm]

Tell that to Canada. They're begging off due to severe economic stress due to the Kyoto agreement.





Wrong. It's already failed. Again I direct you to Canada.

and the mandate was destroyed by a CONSERVATIVE government. like the CONSERVATIVE government in the u.s. who refused to ratify it.
and the worst industry to try and clean up is the oilsands, as americans look for a closer, more stable place to import energy from. american interests are actually responsible for our worsening pollution problem.

not that it hasn't been good for the alberta economy, it's at what cost to our environment.

 

[fossten]

We are one of the dirtiest carbon based countries..

We're all carbon based life forms.

 

[alexfranke]

We're all carbon based life forms.

...carbon-based life forms clever enough to figure out how to extract energy from fossil fuels -- but not without releasing carbon into the atmosphere.

 

[luxuryrules]

Explain to me how this is the same.

Make the argument, tell me how it's the same.

However, his actions in the past few weeks have left NO DOUBT in any thinking person's mind where and how he's going to govern. And we have to be able to discuss what's going on candidly.

And it was right to do so.
The claims made against Bush were absurd and completely unfounded. There were plenty of failings of the Bush administration to be upset over, but those leftist clowns never protested those things.

If you would like to argue otherwise, do so and I will prove you wrong. Otherwise, you're talking out of your arse again, attempting to be a clever "devil's advocate" yet lacking the knowledge to do so.

This is not politics as usual we're experiencing.
And there are going to be consequences for the policies we pursue.

I also don't want to blame Obama for all of the problems were facing, that wouldn't be honest either. But he's in a position to make things vastly worse.
I think we'd in a world of pain regardless who was elected, things are already a mess. And it took us decades and decades to get here.

The last year of the Bush administration made some huge mistakes that I opposed at the time, including the "stimulus" plan last spring and then the bank bailout this fall.
I think the monetary policy and the federal reserve are completely out of control right now. I think all of these things, plus the international political problems around the world are creating an atmosphere that could reshape the world and make things go south so fast you won't know what hit us.

All of this, the fact that Obama and the Democrats are pushing an agenda that is doomed to fail, and the fact that he and the democrat leadership are advancing their agenda through dishonest politics should alarm and outrage you. And if you can't prevent something from happening if you refuse to recognize it as being possible. And the sooner we identify the problem, the soon we can accept our medicine, and start the recovery. The longer we wait, the more we spend, the longer and more intense the pain is going to be.

There's a lot of doom and gloom in this statement and, generally, coming from your Camp. Which is fine. However.... when you ask me to draw parallels to how it's the same to when I saw Bush get elected, here is what I see. People compared Bush to Hitler. People said he was going to destroy the government, run us into financial ruin, and that generations into the future we would be ruined on account of his policies. To be clear, I don't support nor do I advocate any of those claims, and I think you would probably agree that they largely turned out to be incorrect. Now the same claims are being made of our next leader, why should I believe them now? In short, whenever a new President gets elected, the political opposition ALWAYS goes nuts telling everybody how the new leader is screwing up the country, long term ramifications, bad news in general, blah blah blah. And you have not disappointed me.

It's actually kind of refreshing to see your perspective on admitting it isn't all the Administration's fault, nor Obama's, etc. Well said.
And you're spot on with the following read on where I come from:
"I'd prefer to think that he's merely complacent and lulled into a false sense of security. Many people are so disinfranchised by the political system that they've decided they have no voice, there's nothing they can do, and what we're seeing is just the partisan back and forth that they've grown deaf to over the years. But this isn't, what we're seeing in government is radical change, but worst of all, they are using the economic crisis as a means of stabbing the country in the back with their agenda, in the meantime, the very crisis they are exploiting will be worsened because of their "solution.""

The only two points I pick are the following: first, I understand that I have a voice and I use it in the necessary venues. What I do not think is that by 'winning' arguments in the political board of an automotive forum will affect any serious change in what's going on. Second, I think you're grossly misreading what is going on with the agenda at hand. Yourself and the others are making it sound as if the Administration is maliciously screwing over the American people - it's not. If you want to say it is being handled too quickly and amateurish mistakes are being made, yes, it is - and we've both said that before. What is happening, however, is that the Administration is doing the *best they can* to help America through this reasonably difficult time.

So if a smiley won't cut it, what will? Let's break this down. It's a politics section of an automotive forum. Seriously. I know you like to think you're on a mission to educate the American People [on the dangers of the Democratic party], but if you were truly concerned about educating the citizens of the dangers of what we're doing, then spend some time doing work for a political campaign. Surf dedicated websites for that, or, better yet, start your own. I'll come and read it. But in the meantime, remember the venue and try to maintain a little levity. I do, and I enjoy it here.

 

[foxpaws]

So if a smiley won't cut it, what will? Let's break this down. It's a politics section of an automotive forum. Seriously. I know you like to think you're on a mission to educate the American People [on the dangers of the Democratic party], but if you were truly concerned about educating the citizens of the dangers of what we're doing, then spend some time doing work for a political campaign. Surf dedicated websites for that, or, better yet, start your own. I'll come and read it. But in the meantime, remember the venue and try to maintain a little levity. I do, and I enjoy it here.

I have tried to tell this to Cal before - this is a guilty pleasure... look at the number of views these threads get...tiny. If in 'real life' my work was only getting this number of hits I would be out of a job, quickly. It is a great place to stretch my writing chops, have some fun, get some 'insight' to how the other side might be thinking, and get a few digs in for the ol' liberal cause.

Plus, if I took it too seriously I would have been gone long ago - I have to be able to laugh at the labels the right constantly plasters on me here.

I like the 'smartness' of most of the people here. As a whole they argue very well, often much better than I do. I learn some things, hopefully they learn some things. We both get to see the other side as something beyond the media rhetoric. And in some odd way the people here become some sort of political 'acquaintances', even 'friends'. Sparring partners as it were.

The smileys work for me luxury- - And yes, I do like frogs legs - I had them not too long ago in New Orleans with a piquant sauce that was to die for...

 

[alexfranke]

So if a smiley won't cut it, what will? Let's break this down. It's a politics section of an automotive forum. Seriously. I know you like to think you're on a mission to educate the American People [on the dangers of the Democratic party], but if you were truly concerned about educating the citizens of the dangers of what we're doing, then spend some time doing work for a political campaign. Surf dedicated websites for that, or, better yet, start your own. I'll come and read it. But in the meantime, remember the venue and try to maintain a little levity. I do, and I enjoy it here.

I was going to make a related comment on that Omaba-is-like-Hitler thread, but rather than commenting on that one at all, it seems to fit in nicely here instead.

Personally, I'm pretty open to new ideas, and my opinions can be swayed to alternate points of view. But throw me into a pot of boiling water, and I'll jump right out. There seems to be a lot of boiling water here.

I don't presume to know what everyone's political agendas are here, but for those who do want to draw other persuadable people to see it their way, a mulish and fractious position is not very persuasive. That's not everyone's position here, obviously, but a lot of posts do have that tone.

I, too, appreciate some levity.

 

[foxpaws]

Personally, I'm pretty open to new ideas, and my opinions can be swayed to alternate points of view. But throw me into a pot of boiling water, and I'll jump right out. There seems to be a lot of boiling water here.

Ah, Alex - jump right in, the water is fine... and the sharks - heck- the worse they will do is gnaw on you a little - and most of them will just end up gumming you...

I like reading your comments - it is nice to see someone who is testing the water, and who isn't so opinionated as most of us out here (I am very pigheaded )

 

[ford nut]

(I am very pigheaded )

And dishonest.....deceiving......liar....at best obtuse