Jesus a pacifist?

[raVeneyes]

Luke Chapter 5:

27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.

Matthew Chapter 5:

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

================

A lot has been made of these passages. To me they've always sounded very pacifistic...even going so far as to say not to defend yourself from evil.

 

[raVeneyes]

And in Mark chapter 15

3 The chief priests accused him of many things. 4 So again Pilate asked him, "Aren't you going to answer? See how many things they are accusing you of."

5 But Jesus still made no reply, and Pilate was amazed.

=================

Jesus went so far as to not only not defend himself against attack, he also didn't even defend himself against false accusation...

 

[barry2952]

Being Jewish, I've not read the New Testament. From the passages you quoted Jesus certainly seems to be pacifistic. Is there a context that I am missing?

 

[raVeneyes]

Being Jewish, I've not read the New Testament. From the passages you quoted Jesus certainly seems to be pacifistic. Is there a context that I am missing?

The prime argument against the Matthew and Luke chapters being used to uphold pacifism is that Jesus was teaching to congregations the differences between the way they had interpreted The Laws (ten commandments) and their meaning...

There is no context for the Mark quote. Jesus' actions were always pacifistic in and of themselves...during his whole tribulation (the passion) he did not raise a hand nor a voice to defend himself in the least.

 

[Kbob]

Luke Chapter 5:

27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.

Matthew Chapter 5:

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

================

A lot has been made of these passages. To me they've always sounded very pacifistic...even going so far as to say not to defend yourself from evil.

That's Luke chapter 6. Both passages are basically the same. Again, Jesus is dealing with pride. Notice he talks about a cloak and tunic. Don't fret when you are a victim of a small crime. Don't become a vigilante. Pray for them. Nowhere does it say to let someone take all you have. Jesus said to obey the laws of the land. Here in the U.S., it's a crime to steal. Let the law take care of it. Don't let hatred fester inside of you, even when you are a victim.

 

[Kbob]

And in Mark chapter 15

3 The chief priests accused him of many things. 4 So again Pilate asked him, "Aren't you going to answer? See how many things they are accusing you of."

5 But Jesus still made no reply, and Pilate was amazed.

=================

Jesus went so far as to not only not defend himself against attack, he also didn't even defend himself against false accusation...

Here, Jesus is fulfilling prophecy concerning Himself. Plus, Jesus had to be sacrificed, hence no defense. If He had defended Himself, He would not have been sacrificed. And without His sacrifice, the world has no hope.

Jesus threw the money-changers out of the temple. That's not the actions of a pacifist. Jesus told His disciples in Luke 22:36 to buy a sword if you don't have one. He was telling them that the time was coming when they would need to defend themselves against people intent on taking their lives wrongfully after He was gone.

 

[raVeneyes]

Here, Jesus is fulfilling prophecy concerning Himself. Plus, Jesus had to be sacrificed, hence no defense. If He had defended Himself, He would not have been sacrificed. And without His sacrifice, the world has no hope.

Jesus threw the money-changers out of the temple. That's not the actions of a pacifist. Jesus told His disciples in Luke 22:36 to buy a sword if you don't have one. He was telling them that the time was coming when they would need to defend themselves against people intent on taking their lives wrongfully after He was gone.

Umm...noooo

Luke 22:

35 Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
"Nothing," they answered.

36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

38 The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That is enough," he replied.

...

49 When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?" 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

51 But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him.

=====================

Jesus could have easily been sacrificed had he let his disciples kill a few priests' servants... Pilate would have just strung him up right away...but Jesus didn't believe in violence.

 

[JC1994]

Luke Chapter 5:

27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.

Matthew Chapter 5:

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

================

A lot has been made of these passages. To me they've always sounded very pacifistic...even going so far as to say not to defend yourself from evil.

Why don't you ask Jesus what he meant?

 

[mespock]

Mathew Chapter 5:1 - 12
1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:
3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

 

[Kbob]

Umm...noooo

Luke 22:

35 Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
"Nothing," they answered.

36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

38 The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That is enough," he replied.

...

49 When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?" 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

51 But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him.

=====================

Jesus could have easily been sacrificed had he let his disciples kill a few priests' servants... Pilate would have just strung him up right away...but Jesus didn't believe in violence.

Sorry, but you're the one that's wrong here. They lacked nothing while Jesus was with them. Their lives were protected by the very presence of Jesus. But the time was coming when He would not be with them. He wasn't talking about that night when He would be handed over to be sacrificed. He was talking about after. The disciples didn't necessarily understand what He was saying at the time. And that was the case with most of what Jesus taught about. Jesus had to be a blameless sacrifice. Else His death would have paid only for His own sins (which He didn't have any) and not for the sins of the world.

 

[raVeneyes]

Sorry, but you're the one that's wrong here. They lacked nothing while Jesus was with them. Their lives were protected by the very presence of Jesus. But the time was coming when He would not be with them. He wasn't talking about that night when He would be handed over to be sacrificed. He was talking about after. The disciples didn't necessarily understand what He was saying at the time. And that was the case with most of what Jesus taught about. Jesus had to be a blameless sacrifice. Else His death would have paid only for His own sins (which He didn't have any) and not for the sins of the world.

So then two swords is enough to protect twelve grown men for the rest of their days?

 

[Kbob]

11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

I feel better already. Thanks (sincerely).

Ken

 

[Kbob]

So then two swords is enough to protect twelve grown men for the rest of their days?

Jesus said "that's enough" because they didn't understand, not because 2 swords were literally enough.

 

[barry2952]

Kbob,

I'm not mocking. I'm asking out of ignorance.

If Jesus' deciples didn't understand Jesus how could their writings be reliable? When I read the Old Testament I was told to view it as a guidebook. How could something written so long after the fact and translated from ancient languages be taken as literal?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Kbob]

Kbob,

I'm not mocking. I'm asking out of ignorance.

If Jesus' deciples didn't understand Jesus how could their writings be reliable? When I read the Old Testament I was told to view it as a guidebook. How could something written so long after the fact and translated from ancient languages be taken as literal?

Inquiring minds want to know.

After Jesus left, the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost as recorded in the beginning of Acts. The Holy Spirit of God opened their understanding, as He does with everyone who truly believes.

 

[barry2952]

So, until Jesus died his deciples didn't understand his concepts but followed him anyway?

 

[raVeneyes]

After Jesus left, the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost as recorded in the beginning of Acts. The Holy Spirit of God opened their understanding, as He does with everyone who truly believes.

Funny how millions of true believers can have their heart opened to understanding, and none of them can agree...

 

[Kbob]

So, until Jesus died his deciples didn't understand his concepts but followed him anyway?

Not everything, of course. Jesus wasn't just a charismatic person. They couldn't deny the miracles, for one.

 

[Kbob]

Funny how millions of true believers can have their heart opened to understanding, and none of them can agree...

It's not funny, but it is reality. Even those who believe have faults. Only Jesus was perfect. Heck, even the apostle Paul called Peter on the carpet for doing something wrong. God included the faults of man in His Bible to show us that we really have no hope without Him.

 

[fossten]

Kbob,

I'm not mocking. I'm asking out of ignorance.

If Jesus' deciples didn't understand Jesus how could their writings be reliable? When I read the Old Testament I was told to view it as a guidebook. How could something written so long after the fact and translated from ancient languages be taken as literal?

Inquiring minds want to know.

I'll take this one.

The writings of the Apostles were and are reliable as the result of God's inspiration and Canonical acceptance; that is, God promised in the Old Testament that He would preserve His word, and the early church accepted the Epistles (letters written by the Apostles) as canon, or part of the Word of God, what we call the Bible. Some of the letters written by the Apostles were not accepted into the canon, such as Paul's SECOND letter to the church at Corinth, so only his first and third letters were canonized as Corinthians I and II. (NOTE: Maccabees and the Apocrypha, although in the Catholic Bible, were NOT canonized by the early church, and are not found in the KJV or any of its diluted offshoots.)

A Christian can trust in God's ability to preserve His word, as stated in Psalm 12:6-7, "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

A Christian can also trust in Divine inspiration as proof of reliability and accuracy, as stated in II Timothy 3:16-17:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."


It's clear that Jesus' disciples, although men of God, were human and thus flawed. Peter denied Jesus thrice in one night. But he went on to lead the church in Pentecost, where three thousand souls were saved in one night.

At the last supper, the disciples argued and fought over who would be first among them in heaven. Jesus scolded them.

Paul and Barnabas had a bitter dispute big enough to break up their missionary partnership, Paul finishing his journeys with Silas.

As humans, we are fallible and mistake-prone, even evil. But that underscores the need that we all have for a Saviour, since we are unable to save ourselves. Isaiah 64:6 says,

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

 

[raVeneyes]

It's not funny, but it is reality. Even those who believe have faults. Only Jesus was perfect. Heck, even the apostle Paul called Peter on the carpet for doing something wrong. God included the faults of man in His Bible to show us that we really have no hope without Him.

And by your own admission apparently no hope *with* him.

 

[Kbob]

And by your own admission apparently no hope *with* him.

Nice try. The hope is after this life.

My point was that if you're looking for a perfect person, there was only one: Jesus.

 

[TheDude]

Nice try. The hope is after this life.

My point was that if you're looking for a perfect person, there was only one: Jesus.

What about Muhammed and Buddha?

Buddha: Did reach enlightment through years of contemplation and self-denial.


Muhammed: If God chose him to bring his word to the people, I'd think God wouldn't choose some schmuck.

 

[Kbob]

What about Muhammed and Buddha?

Buddha: Did reach enlightment through years of contemplation and self-denial.


Muhammed: If God chose him to bring his word to the people, I'd think God wouldn't choose some schmuck.

What about them? I don't know much about them at all. If you want to talk about some guy who reached "enlightment" (sic) then go ahead. I'll stay away from that one. If you have some info on Muhammed, I'd be happy to listen. If you're saying that these 2 are just as credible as Jesus, then I believe you haven't looked hard enough. But I'm talking about faith again. And this thread was asking whether Jesus was a pacifist or not. And my posts were simply meant to shed some light on that subject. But in that regard, I suppose Buddha was a pacifist, and Muhammed was not.

 

[captainalias]

Jesus threw the money-changers out of the temple. That's not the actions of a pacifist. Jesus told His disciples in Luke 22:36 to buy a sword if you don't have one. He was telling them that the time was coming when they would need to defend themselves against people intent on taking their lives wrongfully after He was gone.

It's not a literal interpretation to buy a sword to defend yourself against people. It's a call to be ready for future hardship and self-sacrifice. Note the word used here- "sword" is Greek machaira, "a relatively short sword or other sharp instrument, a sword or dagger." Not a soldier's sword, but a small one. If you look at the rest of Luke 22:36 in its original Greek (A new AMerican standard would also help), you'll see that the passage is emphasizing being ready for hardship.

To give up a garment (of great importance against the night chill) for a sword just emphasizes the dire circumstances that would be at hand for Christians in the face of persecution, sin, etc...