Liberal MSM shows hypocritical true colors again, criticizing Bush/troops interview

95DevilleNS said:
Same place you do, the news. Both foreign and domestic. Do you really mean to tell me that everyone agreed that Saddam had weapons? As I recall people in both parties had said there was no definite proof and a hastily started war based on mostly 'maybe's' and 'could be's' would be costly. Guess what, it has become so.

Yes, I do realize that legally Bush can't be held accountable for lieing since he has the excuse of "I was told wrongful information." But come on, he is the president, he called the shots. Be a man and own up to it. If we're going to let this go by we might of as well let every war criminal from the Nazi's on up go free since they all had the excuse of "I was following orders."

That's funny, the news I remember had EVERYONE agreeing that Saddam had WMDs and was a real threat.

See below:

It Wasn't Just Miller's Story

By Robert Kagan

Tuesday, October 25, 2005; Page A21

The Judith Miller-Valerie Plame-Scooter Libby imbroglio is being reduced to a simple narrative about the origins of the Iraq war. Miller, the story goes, was an anti-Saddam Hussein, weapons-of-mass-destruction-hunting zealot and was either an eager participant or an unwitting dupe in a campaign by Bush administration officials and Iraqi exiles to justify the invasion. The New York Times now characterizes the affair as "just one skirmish in the continuing battle over the Bush administration's justification for the war in Iraq." Miller may be "best known for her role in a series of Times articles in 2002 and 2003 that strongly suggested Saddam Hussein already had or was acquiring an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction." According to the Times's critique, she credulously reported information passed on by "a circle of Iraqi informants, defectors and exiles bent on 'regime change' in Iraq," which was then "eagerly confirmed by United States officials convinced of the need to intervene in Iraq." Many critics outside the Times suggest that Miller's eagerness to publish the Bush administration's line was the primary reason Americans went to war. The Times itself is edging closer to this version of events.

There is a big problem with this simple narrative. It is that the Times, along with The Post and other news organizations, ran many alarming stories about Iraq's weapons programs before the election of George W. Bush. A quick search through the Times archives before 2001 produces such headlines as "Iraq Has Network of Outside Help on Arms, Experts Say"(November 1998), "U.S. Says Iraq Aided Production of Chemical Weapons in Sudan"(August 1998), "Iraq Suspected of Secret Germ War Effort" (February 2000), "Signs of Iraqi Arms Buildup Bedevil U.S. Administration" (February 2000), "Flight Tests Show Iraq Has Resumed a Missile Program" (July 2000). (A somewhat shorter list can be compiled from The Post's archives, including a September 1998 headline: "Iraqi Work Toward A-Bomb Reported.") The Times stories were written by Barbara Crossette, Tim Weiner and Steven Lee Myers; Miller shared a byline on one.

Many such stories appeared before and after the Clinton administration bombed Iraq for four days in late 1998 in what it insisted was an effort to degrade Iraqi weapons programs. Philip Shenon reported official concerns that Iraq would be "capable within months -- and possibly just weeks or days -- of threatening its neighbors with an arsenal of chemical, biological and even nuclear weapons." He reported that Iraq was thought to be "still hiding tons of nerve gas" and was "seeking to obtain uranium from a rogue nation or terrorist groups to complete as many as four nuclear warheads." Tim Weiner and Steven Erlanger reported that Hussein was closer than ever "to what he wants most: keeping a secret cache of biological and chemical weapons." "To maintain his chemical and biological weapons -- and the ability to build more," they reported, Hussein had sacrificed over $120 billion in oil revenue and "devoted his intelligence service to an endless game of cat and mouse to hide his suspected weapons caches from United Nations inspections."

In 1999 Weiner reported that "Iraq's chances of rebuilding a secret arsenal look good." Hussein was "scouring the world for tools to build new weapons." He might "be as close to building a nuclear weapon -- perhaps closer -- than he was in 1991." In 2000 Myers reported that Iraq had rebuilt 12 "missile factories or industrial sites" thought to be "involved in Iraq's efforts to produce weapons of mass destruction" and had "continued its pursuit of biological and chemical weapons."

The Times's sources were "administration officials," "intelligence officials," "U.N. weapons inspectors" and "international analysts." The "administration officials" were, of course, Clinton officials. A number of stories were based not on off-the-record conversations but on public statements and documentation by U.N. inspectors.

From 1998 through 2000, the Times editorial page warned that "without further outside intervention, Iraq should be able to rebuild weapons and missile plants within a year" and that "future military attacks may be required to diminish the arsenal again." Otherwise, Iraq could "restore its ability to deliver biological and chemical weapons against potential targets in the Middle East." "The world," it said, "cannot leave Mr. Hussein free to manufacture horrific germs and nerve gases and use them to terrorize neighboring countries."

Times editorials insisted the danger from Iraq was imminent. When the Clinton administration attempted to negotiate, they warned against letting "diplomacy drift into dangerous delay. Even a few more weeks free of inspections might allow Mr. Hussein to revive construction of a biological, chemical or nuclear weapon." They also argued that it was "hard to negotiate with a tyrant who has no intention of honoring his commitments and who sees nuclear, chemical and biological weapons as his country's salvation." "As Washington contemplates an extended war against terrorism," a Times editorial insisted, "it cannot give in to a man who specializes in the unthinkable."

Another Times editorial warned that containment of Hussein was eroding. "The Security Council is wobbly, with Russia and France eager to ease inspections and sanctions." Any approach "that depends on Security Council unity is destined to be weak." "Mr. [Kofi] Annan's resolve seems in doubt." When Hans Blix was appointed to head the U.N. inspectors, the editors criticized him for "a decade-long failure to detect Iraq's secret nuclear weapons program before the gulf war" and for a "tendency to credit official assurances from rulers like Mr. Hussein." His selection was "a disturbing sign that the international community lacks the determination to rebuild an effective arms inspection system." The "further the world gets from the gulf war, the more it seems willing to let Mr. Hussein revive his deadly weapons projects." Even "[m]any Americans question the need to maintain pressure on Baghdad and would oppose the use of force. But the threat is too great to give ground to Mr. Hussein. The cost to the world and to the United States of dealing with a belligerent Iraq armed with biological weapons would be far greater than the cost of preventing Baghdad from rearming."

The Times was not alone, of course. On Jan. 29, 2001, The Post editorialized that "of all the booby traps left behind by the Clinton administration, none is more dangerous -- or more urgent -- than the situation in Iraq. Over the last year, Mr. Clinton and his team quietly avoided dealing with, or calling attention to, the almost complete unraveling of a decade's efforts to isolate the regime of Saddam Hussein and prevent it from rebuilding its weapons of mass destruction. That leaves President Bush to confront a dismaying panorama in the Persian Gulf," including "intelligence photos that show the reconstruction of factories long suspected of producing chemical and biological weapons."

This was the consensus before Bush took office, before Scooter Libby assumed his post and before Judith Miller did most of the reporting for which she is now, uniquely, criticized. It was based on reporting by a large of number of journalists who in turn based their stories on the judgments of international intelligence analysts, Clinton officials and weapons inspectors. As we wage what the Times now calls "the continuing battle over the Bush administration's justification for the war in Iraq," we will have to grapple with the stubborn fact that the underlying rationale for the war was already in place when this administration arrived.

Robert Kagan, a senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and Transatlantic Fellow at the German Marshall Fund, writes a monthly column for The Post.




Gee, did you hear the same news I did? I DON'T THINK SO. It seems even your Fiberal news bastions have forgotten what they said not so long ago.

I guess if Bush lied, so did the Times, the Post, the Brits, the Democrats, Clinton, EVERYBODY!

HERE ARE MY FACTS. WHERE ARE YOURS? Nothing but rhetoric and basekess, ad hominem attacks from your kook Fib base led by the discredited Michael Moore and George Soros.

*owned*

p.s. This article came from your vaunted Washington Post.
 
We are a country infested by A.D.D.

We don't, can't or won't pay attention for more than 2 minutes. People forget. People are lazy. People believe what they are told. People don't seek out the truth. For if they did, they would realize that the media lies to them on a daily basis. It is almost as if there is a good vs evil thing going on. The right is the good, the left, the evil. We all know that good conquers evil so keep up the good work Fossten. There is a lot more work to do.
 
MonsterMark said:
The right is the good, the left, the evil.

Dude...you can't seriously be that deluded.

Worst post ever!

Neither viewpoint is good or evil... they're just freeking viewpoints!!!
 
JohnnyBz00LS said:
Your argument for Saddam ONCE HAVING WMDs nearly 20 years ago is ancient history. Not applicable in the 21st century. It has long been proven that the sanctions imposed on Saddam after Gulf-War I actually WORKED, despite all the lies and web of deception spun by the BuSh administration in '01 and '02.

ok it worked but I submit this... a broken clock is right at least twice a day!
 
raVeneyes said:
Dude...you can't seriously be that deluded.

Worst post ever!

Neither viewpoint is good or evil... they're just freeking viewpoints!!!

liberal entitlement plan enablers on the left vs republicans empowering the people on the right. entitlements are evil empowerment is good. reduced to the LCD evil vs good. If you need us to show our work with the simple equatiosn just say so we do not mind teaching a man how to fish or how to count fingers. EMPOWER the PEOPLE.

I love out the liberal gubamint ran things down in New Orleans. I have been throough13 to 15 hurricanes in my life time and I have never witnessed suich deplorable inaction from local government. Local government is there to help the local folk mmkkka. I know the liberals think bigger government will fix it all but you had the entire damn state mired in wacko liberal cool aid drinking parties and the people suffered. That is evil.

No he is not diluted he is empowered.
 
raVeneyes said:
And roosters sometimes crow at midnight...what's your point?


the point is... and if I have to I will show all my work on this like I did in middle school. you submitted that the program worked and I submitted likes only that is worked without a doubt on a few vectors thusly reducing the broad concept you submited of it worked. at best there were two vectors which it worked just like in my analogy of the clock, btw the rooster crows at night if he senes danger I am sure saddam had a few rooster in the desert looking for the clock repair guy.

You buddy saddams planed on worked on a few points that made it appear legit. There was little or no transparency of the management and he seen it as an unwatched chicken pen and he went for the eggs in the middle of the night. Your defense of this character is a terrible disjustice to your character.
 
eL eS said:
No he is not diluted he is empowered.

Yay! you're all EMPOWERED to regurgitate RWW talking points and strange cool aid comments...

Conservatives don't empower anyone to do anything. The conservative baseline isn't supporting empowerment they support punishment. They don't support empowering people by making them equal, the conservative motto is "if you're not rich, you're not one of us and not worth our time". There's never in the HISTORY of the conservative political movement been ONE empowering thing supported by it.

Conservatives love the status quo...it's what the conservative political movement got it's name from. Conservatives want to go back...back before regulation..back before worker's rights...back before equal rights...back before the suffrage movement. Back to a time when white men ruled from high thrones over monopolistic corporations and made money hand over fist while working people barely made it in to their thirties because of working conditions at most jobs. Back to a time when men ordered their women in to the kitchens. Back to a time where all morals were Christian.

It's a lot of wishful bubkus...
 
I was born in to a broken household and I have a younger brother 1 year younger. My mother a high school drop out but she worked and saved and completed her GED and moved on to college and then in to a professional career. She is consrvative, she has the richest set of morals i have ever seen. I had to quit high school in order to help with household debt becasue my mother took ill and couldn't work. Government was there to help us nor did they help her climb through the riggors of her education.

You see she lack the one essential quality liberals lack and that is determination to do it on her own. despite all her hard work it wasnt enough to establish an affluent household but none of us gave up and came to you or anyone else with our hands out. She worked and eductaed, I worked and got educated as did my brother. All three of did it without entitlements or specila privilidge because we had desire and motivation in our hearts two qualities that liberals are diametrically opposed tow when it comes to their constituents.

You are the proppagator of the plantation hell louis farahkan said so himself recent google it. He point blank blamed the democratic party for impeeding the success of the underclassed afro-americans.

I am not going to brag about my accomplishments and my material posessions but I assure you that at not time in my 20 years of being a tax payer did I come to you for a handout or up and I am doing very damn well for my family.

No go prey on the indigent like Lestat the vampire preyed on rats in the swap in interview with a vampire. The indigent sustain you and your party not the other way around.
 
eL eS said:
I was born in to a broken household and I have a younger brother 1 year younger. My mother a high school drop out but she worked and saved and completed her GED and moved on to college and then in to a professional career. She is consrvative, she has the richest set of morals i have ever seen. I had to quit high school in order to help with household debt becasue my mother took ill and couldn't work. Government was there to help us nor did they help her climb through the riggors of her education.

You see she lack the one essential quality liberals lack and that is determination to do it on her own. despite all her hard work it wasnt enough to establish an affluent household but none of us gave up and came to you or anyone else with our hands out. She worked and eductaed, I worked and got educated as did my brother. All three of did it without entitlements or specila privilidge because we had desire and motivation in our hearts two qualities that liberals are diametrically opposed tow when it comes to their constituents.

You are the proppagator of the plantation hell louis farahkan said so himself recent google it. He point blank blamed the democratic party for impeeding the success of the underclassed afro-americans.

I am not going to brag about my accomplishments and my material posessions but I assure you that at not time in my 20 years of being a tax payer did I come to you for a handout or up and I am doing very damn well for my family.

No go prey on the indigent like Lestat the vampire preyed on rats in the swap in interview with a vampire. The indigent sustain you and your party not the other way around.

Can someone translate this in to readable english?

"I don't know what the f#@# you just said little kid, but you special, man. You reached out, and touched a brothers' heart." - Pumpkin Eskobar
 
fossten said:
That's funny, the news I remember had EVERYONE agreeing that Saddam had WMDs and was a real threat.

See below:

It Wasn't Just Miller's Story

By Robert Kagan

Tuesday, October 25, 2005; Page A21

The Judith Miller-Valerie Plame-Scooter Libby imbroglio is being reduced to a simple narrative about the origins of the Iraq war. Miller, the story goes, was an anti-Saddam Hussein, weapons-of-mass-destruction-hunting zealot and was either an eager participant or an unwitting dupe in a campaign by Bush administration officials and Iraqi exiles to justify the invasion. The New York Times now characterizes the affair as "just one skirmish in the continuing battle over the Bush administration's justification for the war in Iraq." Miller may be "best known for her role in a series of Times articles in 2002 and 2003 that strongly suggested Saddam Hussein already had or was acquiring an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction." According to the Times's critique, she credulously reported information passed on by "a circle of Iraqi informants, defectors and exiles bent on 'regime change' in Iraq," which was then "eagerly confirmed by United States officials convinced of the need to intervene in Iraq." Many critics outside the Times suggest that Miller's eagerness to publish the Bush administration's line was the primary reason Americans went to war. The Times itself is edging closer to this version of events.

There is a big problem with this simple narrative. It is that the Times, along with The Post and other news organizations, ran many alarming stories about Iraq's weapons programs before the election of George W. Bush. A quick search through the Times archives before 2001 produces such headlines as "Iraq Has Network of Outside Help on Arms, Experts Say"(November 1998), "U.S. Says Iraq Aided Production of Chemical Weapons in Sudan"(August 1998), "Iraq Suspected of Secret Germ War Effort" (February 2000), "Signs of Iraqi Arms Buildup Bedevil U.S. Administration" (February 2000), "Flight Tests Show Iraq Has Resumed a Missile Program" (July 2000). (A somewhat shorter list can be compiled from The Post's archives, including a September 1998 headline: "Iraqi Work Toward A-Bomb Reported.") The Times stories were written by Barbara Crossette, Tim Weiner and Steven Lee Myers; Miller shared a byline on one.

Many such stories appeared before and after the Clinton administration bombed Iraq for four days in late 1998 in what it insisted was an effort to degrade Iraqi weapons programs. Philip Shenon reported official concerns that Iraq would be "capable within months -- and possibly just weeks or days -- of threatening its neighbors with an arsenal of chemical, biological and even nuclear weapons." He reported that Iraq was thought to be "still hiding tons of nerve gas" and was "seeking to obtain uranium from a rogue nation or terrorist groups to complete as many as four nuclear warheads." Tim Weiner and Steven Erlanger reported that Hussein was closer than ever "to what he wants most: keeping a secret cache of biological and chemical weapons." "To maintain his chemical and biological weapons -- and the ability to build more," they reported, Hussein had sacrificed over $120 billion in oil revenue and "devoted his intelligence service to an endless game of cat and mouse to hide his suspected weapons caches from United Nations inspections."

In 1999 Weiner reported that "Iraq's chances of rebuilding a secret arsenal look good." Hussein was "scouring the world for tools to build new weapons." He might "be as close to building a nuclear weapon -- perhaps closer -- than he was in 1991." In 2000 Myers reported that Iraq had rebuilt 12 "missile factories or industrial sites" thought to be "involved in Iraq's efforts to produce weapons of mass destruction" and had "continued its pursuit of biological and chemical weapons."

The Times's sources were "administration officials," "intelligence officials," "U.N. weapons inspectors" and "international analysts." The "administration officials" were, of course, Clinton officials. A number of stories were based not on off-the-record conversations but on public statements and documentation by U.N. inspectors.

From 1998 through 2000, the Times editorial page warned that "without further outside intervention, Iraq should be able to rebuild weapons and missile plants within a year" and that "future military attacks may be required to diminish the arsenal again." Otherwise, Iraq could "restore its ability to deliver biological and chemical weapons against potential targets in the Middle East." "The world," it said, "cannot leave Mr. Hussein free to manufacture horrific germs and nerve gases and use them to terrorize neighboring countries."

Times editorials insisted the danger from Iraq was imminent. When the Clinton administration attempted to negotiate, they warned against letting "diplomacy drift into dangerous delay. Even a few more weeks free of inspections might allow Mr. Hussein to revive construction of a biological, chemical or nuclear weapon." They also argued that it was "hard to negotiate with a tyrant who has no intention of honoring his commitments and who sees nuclear, chemical and biological weapons as his country's salvation." "As Washington contemplates an extended war against terrorism," a Times editorial insisted, "it cannot give in to a man who specializes in the unthinkable."

Another Times editorial warned that containment of Hussein was eroding. "The Security Council is wobbly, with Russia and France eager to ease inspections and sanctions." Any approach "that depends on Security Council unity is destined to be weak." "Mr. [Kofi] Annan's resolve seems in doubt." When Hans Blix was appointed to head the U.N. inspectors, the editors criticized him for "a decade-long failure to detect Iraq's secret nuclear weapons program before the gulf war" and for a "tendency to credit official assurances from rulers like Mr. Hussein." His selection was "a disturbing sign that the international community lacks the determination to rebuild an effective arms inspection system." The "further the world gets from the gulf war, the more it seems willing to let Mr. Hussein revive his deadly weapons projects." Even "[m]any Americans question the need to maintain pressure on Baghdad and would oppose the use of force. But the threat is too great to give ground to Mr. Hussein. The cost to the world and to the United States of dealing with a belligerent Iraq armed with biological weapons would be far greater than the cost of preventing Baghdad from rearming."

The Times was not alone, of course. On Jan. 29, 2001, The Post editorialized that "of all the booby traps left behind by the Clinton administration, none is more dangerous -- or more urgent -- than the situation in Iraq. Over the last year, Mr. Clinton and his team quietly avoided dealing with, or calling attention to, the almost complete unraveling of a decade's efforts to isolate the regime of Saddam Hussein and prevent it from rebuilding its weapons of mass destruction. That leaves President Bush to confront a dismaying panorama in the Persian Gulf," including "intelligence photos that show the reconstruction of factories long suspected of producing chemical and biological weapons."

This was the consensus before Bush took office, before Scooter Libby assumed his post and before Judith Miller did most of the reporting for which she is now, uniquely, criticized. It was based on reporting by a large of number of journalists who in turn based their stories on the judgments of international intelligence analysts, Clinton officials and weapons inspectors. As we wage what the Times now calls "the continuing battle over the Bush administration's justification for the war in Iraq," we will have to grapple with the stubborn fact that the underlying rationale for the war was already in place when this administration arrived.

Robert Kagan, a senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and Transatlantic Fellow at the German Marshall Fund, writes a monthly column for The Post.




Gee, did you hear the same news I did? I DON'T THINK SO. It seems even your Fiberal news bastions have forgotten what they said not so long ago.

I guess if Bush lied, so did the Times, the Post, the Brits, the Democrats, Clinton, EVERYBODY!

HERE ARE MY FACTS. WHERE ARE YOURS? Nothing but rhetoric and basekess, ad hominem attacks from your kook Fib base led by the discredited Michael Moore and George Soros.

*owned*

p.s. This article came from your vaunted Washington Post.



So you stand on the ground that everyone both left & right agreed on the war and that Saddam for sure or most likely had WMD's?

p.s. I know people on the left were on the WMD bandwagon, did I ever say otherwise? One news article proves nothing but my point, this war was hasitly rushed without proper reason or planning.

Owned? Are you a child? Funny, if I were to resort to such tactics Brian (MonsterMark) would edit or just plain delete my post. Way to go censorship!
 
raVeneyes said:
Yay! you're all EMPOWERED to regurgitate RWW talking points and strange cool aid comments...

Conservatives don't empower anyone to do anything. The conservative baseline isn't supporting empowerment they support punishment. They don't support empowering people by making them equal, the conservative motto is "if you're not rich, you're not one of us and not worth our time". There's never in the HISTORY of the conservative political movement been ONE empowering thing supported by it.

Conservatives love the status quo...it's what the conservative political movement got it's name from. Conservatives want to go back...back before regulation..back before worker's rights...back before equal rights...back before the suffrage movement. Back to a time when white men ruled from high thrones over monopolistic corporations and made money hand over fist while working people barely made it in to their thirties because of working conditions at most jobs. Back to a time when men ordered their women in to the kitchens. Back to a time where all morals were Christian.

It's a lot of wishful bubkus...

Raveneyes, that was perfectly put. They know this, they know that this is what they stand for but yet they accuse the 'liberals', 'fiberals' or 'kool-aid drinkers' of being a group of evil peope that want to destroy and plunder. Go figure, a tree hugger and lover of peace that wants to kill, just doesnt work does it. The funniest thing I find, is that the key players that you, Barry, Johnnybz (sorry if I misspelled) debate against are 'devote christians', do you really think Jesus would agree? I have read the bible, as far as I could tell Jesus spoke of and tried to teach love, compassion and peace. At least thats what I got out of it, maybe I misunderstood.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Raveneyes, that was perfectly put. They know this, they know that this is what they stand for but yet they accuse the 'liberals', 'fiberals' or 'kool-aid drinkers' of being a group of evil peope that want to destroy and plunder. Go figure, a tree hugger and lover of peace that wants to kill, just doesnt work does it. The funniest thing I find, is that the key players that you, Barry, Johnnybz (sorry if I misspelled) debate against are 'devote christians', do you really think Jesus would agree? I have read the bible, as far as I could tell Jesus spoke of and tried to teach love, compassion and peace. At least thats what I got out of it, maybe I misunderstood.


so did jesus say kill babies that were conceived but not wanted. Dont give me that compassion crap.
 
raVeneyes said:
Can someone translate this in to readable english?

"I don't know what the f#@# you just said little kid, but you special, man. You reached out, and touched a brothers' heart." - Pumpkin Eskobar


yeah let me clear this up. My father didn't want us but my mother didn't abort us. Hse raised us on her own after my father lft. My mother did this the good ol fashioned way, She Worked. We lived within our means she struggled to get an education and was successful.

She became ill so I stepped up and started working and Isupported my mother and brother. None of us completed high school but we all graduated from college. My brother and I have successful career and healthy families and at no point did we buy into your liberal entitlment programs becasue they do notpromote independence rather they promote dependencey and destroys the family.

I did use the GI Bill but I had to contribute to that and I assure you as a low on the totem pole E1 it wasnt easy. It certainly was a wise sacrifice.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Funny, if I were to resort to such tactics Brian (MonsterMark) would edit or just plain delete my post. Way to go censorship!
Bryan, (Monstermark) doesn't do that. Have I done that to you? (Please point it out for me). I don't censor although I have had to remove a few personal attacks with words like moron, idiot, blah, blah blah in them. And when have I deleted any of your posts? Everybody that participates in this forum knows I work BOTH sides of the isle when it comes to fairness. In fact, it may be fairly argued that I am tougher on the guy on the right because I have higher expectations of them.
 
eL eS said:
so did jesus say kill babies that were conceived but not wanted. Dont give me that compassion crap.

Sorry, I don't follow what you mean with this or what if any bearing this has on what I said. I am not trying to look down at you or mock you, I just don't see what point you are trying to make here.
 
raVeneyes said:
Yay! you're all EMPOWERED to regurgitate RWW talking points and strange cool aid comments...

Conservatives don't empower anyone to do anything. The conservative baseline isn't supporting empowerment they support punishment. They don't support empowering people by making them equal, the conservative motto is "if you're not rich, you're not one of us and not worth our time". There's never in the HISTORY of the conservative political movement been ONE empowering thing supported by it.

Conservatives love the status quo...it's what the conservative political movement got it's name from. Conservatives want to go back...back before regulation..back before worker's rights...back before equal rights...back before the suffrage movement. Back to a time when white men ruled from high thrones over monopolistic corporations and made money hand over fist while working people barely made it in to their thirties because of working conditions at most jobs. Back to a time when men ordered their women in to the kitchens. Back to a time where all morals were Christian.

It's a lot of wishful bubkus...

Wow...it's true what Rush says about you libs...you really DON'T understand true conservatism. What you just said was a bucketful of warm hamster vomit disguised as talking points. Not ONE word of truth in it. Disputing ridiculous comments such as these isn't worth my time.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Sorry, I don't follow what you mean with this or what if any bearing this has on what I said. I am not trying to look down at you or mock you, I just don't see what point you are trying to make here.


well you are backing up rav's assertion that conservatives do not empower further you postulated on peace lovers and tree huggers are non violent whenit isn't the case. There are several enviromental wackos that hurt people and destroy property all in the name of their casue. I am curious with all of this compassion you guys have and your invocation of the name of Jesus why are you support the abortion of babies that were willfully conceived. Where is the love and peace in that?

Why not abort Saddam and the terrorist seems to do more for peace.
 
fossten said:
Wow...it's true what Rush says about you libs...you really DON'T understand true conservatism. What you just said was a bucketful of warm hamster vomit disguised as talking points. Not ONE word of truth in it. Disputing ridiculous comments such as these isn't worth my time.

I concur!
 
eL eS said:
well you are backing up rav's assertion that conservatives do not empower further you postulated on peace lovers and tree huggers are non violent whenit isn't the case. There are several enviromental wackos that hurt people and destroy property all in the name of their casue. I am curious with all of this compassion you guys have and your invocation of the name of Jesus why are you support the abortion of babies that were willfully conceived. Where is the love and peace in that?

Why not abort Saddam and the terrorist seems to do more for peace.

Sorry, you make no sense and you have completely derailed the debate. Dont worry, you're not the first, most of these post no matter how they start go in an entirely different direction. I am guilty of doing so too.

Enviromental wackos that destroy in the name of their cause? Sure there are, most of these people are extremist and extremist are a danger no matter where they stand. same goes for the extremist on the right which there are many.

I have not seen a single time where anyone that as inclinations to the left bring up Jesus to make thier point valid. I said I found it funny how the 'Devote Christians' (and the only way I would know that they are Christians is by their own post) praise war and other subjects would I believe would be un-christian, but that is for another post I guess.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Sorry, you make no sense and you have completely derailed the debate. Dont worry, you're not the first, most of these post no matter how they start go in an entirely different direction. I am guilty of doing so too.
Thanks for clearing that up. I clicked on the thread thinking we would be talking about hypocrisy in the media. What was I thinking?!

And back on topic: Does anybody have a link to the video of the alleged "coaching" incident? I'd really like to make up my own mind on this and not an opinion about it from some left-wing editorial.
 
MonsterMark said:
Bryan, (Monstermark) doesn't do that. Have I done that to you? (Please point it out for me). I don't censor although I have had to remove a few personal attacks with words like moron, idiot, blah, blah blah in them. And when have I deleted any of your posts? Everybody that participates in this forum knows I work BOTH sides of the isle when it comes to fairness. In fact, it may be fairly argued that I am tougher on the guy on the right because I have higher expectations of them.


I would say that Bryan does work both sides of the isle as Moderator. Unfortunately, many posts by his band of "Right Wing Nut Jobs" get right by him because they copy his tactics.

However, if you are reasonable, Bryan will take a second look and make adjustments accordingly.

eL eS,

I'm sure you had a tough life and I'm sure you're proud of yourselves but I believe that you missed out on a true help-up from the system. No everyone that gets assistance milks it for all it's worth. You and your mother's life might have been a little better had you taken just what you needed.

I was born into an upper middle-class lifestyle. Unfortunately, I didn't benefit from family money as I was booted out of the house for beating the hell out of my younger brother for spending my coin collection on candy.

I too had to struggle at 18 to make a go of it but my high school sweetheart believed in me and married me and we worked as a team to make a go of it. She worked the first 20 years we were married which allowed me to take risks in business and investment. I've done pretty well and I want to protect that. That is why I've always voted Ind. or Republican. I'm fiscally Conservative.

The other side of me bears my social responsibility and I feely admit to being Liberal as far as programs that give people a hand up. I have seen first-hand the benefits to our society from providing a means to lift ones self up, as you have done. How much different would your life had been had you been able to complete high school? I know mine would have been different had I completed college.

Obviously there is no middle ground on abortion. To you it's murder. To some other person it's a second chance. I have never personally had to deal with the issue so I may have no basis for my feelings but I do know that the issue is more about the woman's rights than that of the fetus. I believe that using abortion as a form of birth control is just plain wrong. However, $hit happens and nobody is perfect.

What I clearly don't understand is the mentality that one should deliver a full term crack baby who will undoubtedly be a significant drain on society rather than terminate a pregnancy with no future obligation, morally or financially.

Can we not agree to disagree on this issue? No one is forcing anyone to get an abortion. This issue has metaphorically turned us into the Sunnis and Shiites and does little to benefit America as the rest of the world sees us as a divided nation.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Owned? Are you a child? Funny, if I were to resort to such tactics Brian (MonsterMark) would edit or just plain delete my post. Way to go censorship!
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I strongly disagree with your assessment of the situation here. And if you believe Barry 100%, I also question your judgment. You want to talk about tactics, what are the tactics you are using in the slander of Bryan right here? I can hear your answer now, as it's one I've heard often: "I call them how I see them." Well, take a good look at yourself. I'm not buying your passive/aggressive, innocent shtick. You know exactly what you're doing and you're no better than those you deride.

I'm sick of all the "I'm not as bad as the other side" arguments. The fact of the matter is, YES, you are. So everyone get over yourself and just answer the questions.
 

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