Lincoln LS 302

[dwiggy]

To get some buy-in on this project I decided to post the build.

My mission is to convert a Lincoln LS into a V8 Manual with as many OEM parts as possible.

Car:

2000 Lincoln LS8 premium with blown engine.

Engine:

2000 Explorer 302

Trans:

2005 Mustang V6 T5

Status:

Currently I have the hard parts (i.e., car, engine, and transmission.)

I pulled the old engine and transmission out of the car. Recently, I also finished the rebuild on the 302 with new rings, bearings, aluminum heads, 1.7 rockers, ARP rod and head bolts, and other goodies.

Hurdles:
I am using the Factory PCM because of the Instrument Cluster. The timing is the biggest issue here. Fortunately, the 1999 to 2001 Explorer 302s used variable reluctance transducer crank and cam sensors, the same as the LS. This opened a lot of doors.
I had to convert to a front sump oil pan. I am working out the dipstick issue now.
The intake is square bore with aftermarket billet throttle body. I have to build my own idle bypass and connections. I have this planned out in my head. I went this route because I do not like the way fords Multipoint looks.

The transmission in the 2005 Mustang V6 is actually a T5 with bolt-on DS flange, hydraulic clutch, and remote shifter. I had a LS6 manual about 8 years ago; and had to change out the transmission. I am familiar with the components and these look very similar. I also pulled the DS and the pedals out of the V6 Mustang.

I am using motor mount plates from a 1990-93 Cougar 5.0 because they are designed for a pancake style mount. Unfortunately, I have only been able to acquire the driver’s side plate until now. I am desperately seeking out the passenger side plate so that I do not have to build it myself.

The Explorer accessories use a similarly designed power steering pump as the LS. Also, the accessories are located on like sides with the LS. I will have to build AC, PS, and Fuel lines but that pretty easy work.

The 2005 mustang V6 driveshaft will have to be lengthened and I have a 1999 Cobra IRS setup that I am pulling the posi out of for the 8".

To sum it all up, there is a lot to list and I'm somewhere in the middle of the build. I will take some pictures in the next week or so just to show the parts and the car. I would like to get a following on this build to get more assistance when problems come up.

Post the heck out of it.

 

[De-marko]

Sounds like a great project. Hopefully everything will work together electronics wise. Yeah, post some pics.

 

[BlackLS06]

Even ford themselves werent able to get the stock pcm to work with a 4.6 so if you get the windsor block to work then you will have accomplished what no one else has.

The biggest weakness of the LS is the drivetrain. An LS without the 3.9L would be damn near bulletproof in terms of reliability.

 

[cammerfe]

302 Swap

Hey Black, you need to be careful about posts like the above. The LS I drove, powered by a five litre version of the 4.6---prototyped by McLaren---worked just fine. The most significant change necessary wasn't electronic but instead simple hardware. The plastic 'mod' intake manifold interfered with the hood. Instead of modifying the hood they had a lower profile manifold cast from magnesium.

You'll also remember that some dolt put a chib motor into an LS and then sold the result to someone here who cleaned it up some before, in his turn, selling it yet again.

The 302 is much more applicable and I'll look with interest on this project!!

KS

 

[joegr]

...
You'll also remember that some dolt put a chib motor into an LS and then sold the result to someone here who cleaned it up some before, in his turn, selling it yet again....

The first was a good example of your point, but this second one is a good example of BlackLS06's point.

He had to replace the dash gauges and couldn't get the climate control to work correctly (just all on nothing heating or cooling), no AdvanceTrac and so on for many of the features of the LS.


Almost anything can be done, but many things aren't practical. What the OP is planning to do is impractical from any perspective [that I can see] other than just wanting to do it and show that it can be done.

 

[BlackLS06]

Hey Black, you need to be careful about posts like the above. The LS I drove, powered by a five litre version of the 4.6---prototyped by McLaren---worked just fine. The most significant change necessary wasn't electronic but instead simple hardware. The plastic 'mod' intake manifold interfered with the hood. Instead of modifying the hood they had a lower profile manifold cast from magnesium.

You'll also remember that some dolt put a chib motor into an LS and then sold the result to someone here who cleaned it up some before, in his turn, selling it yet again.

The 302 is much more applicable and I'll look with interest on this project!!

KS

Did everything work??

If so then thats the only one because a joegr pointed out the LSX powered one needed to be hacked up.

Id like to see an LS8 powered by a factory ford engine with all electronics working including factory gauges and advancetrac.

 

[Kumba]

The 2005 mustang V6 driveshaft will have to be lengthened and I have a 1999 Cobra IRS setup that I am pulling the posi out of for the 8".

You are two measly brackets and some weld away from just converting the rear to an 8.8" which is FAR superior all things considered. There's even a thread on here with a guy who will sell you the 8.8" IRS brackets that weld to the frame above the pinion. I think they were like $80 if I remember right.

If you are going through the trouble of having a driveshaft made, pulling the pumpkin out, and salvaging parts from a complete 8.8" IRS, just convert it. You are talking maybe an extra day to do the deed assuming you can weld.

Here's the thread for the brackets: http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=75202

 

[dwiggy]

You are two measly brackets and some weld away from just converting the rear to an 8.8" which is FAR superior all things considered. There's even a thread on here with a guy who will sell you the 8.8" IRS brackets that weld to the frame above the pinion. I think they were like $80 if I remember right.

If you are going through the trouble of having a driveshaft made, pulling the pumpkin out, and salvaging parts from a complete 8.8" IRS, just convert it. You are talking maybe an extra day to do the deed assuming you can weld.

Here's the thread for the brackets: http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=75202

When looking at the measurements for the Ford 7.5, 8.0 IRS, and 8.8, they all look the same. The pumpkin for the 8.0 IRS uses the 8.8 rear cover bolt pattern.

Why can't I just put the 8.8 gears and posi in the 8.0 cast iron case?

Please let me know if I'm wrong here but the gears should fit right in, shouldn't they?

Could just be bad "Internet" info:
http://www.lincolnforums.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3663

 

[chris2523]

Hey Black, you need to be careful about posts like the above. The LS I drove, powered by a five litre version of the 4.6---prototyped by McLaren---worked just fine.
...
KS

sure it worked..
but how much of it worked?
climate control? cruise control? stock gauges? message center? etc.

 

[dwiggy]

Did everything work??

If so then thats the only one because a joegr pointed out the LSX powered one needed to be hacked up.

Id like to see an LS8 powered by a factory ford engine with all electronics working including factory gauges and advancetrac.

I have reviewed this project. They used aftermarket gauges. Additionally, the air conditioning did work but they did not specify if other accessories (Cruise control etc) worked.

The LSX is probably a better swap canidate for the Lincoln than the SBF, but what the hay?

Here is some information for you.

The LS6 V6 weighs ~360 lbs.
The AJ Jag engine weighs ~441 lbs.
The Ford 302 weighs ~460 lbs.
The LS6 engine weighs ~457 lbs
A Ford 302 with Aluminum heads weighs ~400 lbs.

http://www.strokerengine.com/EngineWeights.html

Not a bad balance considering the T5 transmissin weighs less than the 5R55N.

 

[cammerfe]

Did everything work??

If so then thats the only one because a joegr pointed out the LSX powered one needed to be hacked up.

Id like to see an LS8 powered by a factory ford engine with all electronics working including factory gauges and advancetrac.

I only drove the car about 2-3 miles, close by the shop in Livonia where the conversion was done. Everything necessary to do that drive worked just fine. And if you don't live in Metro Detroit, as I do, the whole idea of engineering may exist in a fog of uncertainty. But be well aware that if you have been around the Ford end of the car business as is common to living here, it's not too hard to find the people who did the original work in designing a particular component.

When I met the lead engineer for the LS-type ECU design team, he was involved in doing the tuning on a blown (aftermarket components) F-150 at a dyno facility in one of the downriver suburbs of Detroit. He'd not formally left Ford, but was on his way, and he told me several weeks later that he'd accepted a position with a very-well-known race shop here in town.

I'm sure you don't mean to suggest that having designed the electronics in the first place, he'd be unable to make any changes necessary to make the system amenable to adaptation and improvement.

You simply have to have access to the right people. And don't try to make all the changes in the day or two before setting out on a 'Cannonball'.

And as a side note:
As I've noted on this forum in previous discussions, the ECU doesn't know exactly what sort of engine it's attached to. In order to work properly, it's only necessary to have the sensors attached to the engine be of such specification that they communicate properly with the ECU.

KS

 

[joegr]

... Additionally, the air conditioning did work ...

This depends on your definition of work.

Yes if you define that as you turn a switch on when you want full cooling, and you turn another one on when you want full heating.

No if you want any of the following.

Automatic climate control.
Dual climate control.
Control of outlet temperature.

The working climate control on an LS varies the outlet temperatures as needed to keep you comfortable. Rarely does that mean maximum cooling or maximum heating. It is usually somewhere in between. On the example given, there is no way to control the temperature coming out.

Also, there' no way that the factory cruise control, ABS, or AdvanceTrac worked.

Keeping the factory electronics and PCM, you may succeed in making everything work, but it will be a challenge that others have failed at.

 

[dwiggy]

The first was a good example of your point, but this second one is a good example of BlackLS06's point.

He had to replace the dash gauges and couldn't get the climate control to work correctly (just all on nothing heating or cooling), no AdvanceTrac and so on for many of the features of the LS.


Almost anything can be done, but many things aren't practical. What the OP is planning to do is impractical from any perspective [that I can see] other than just wanting to do it and show that it can be done.

I like this post.

Some of my other impractical builds from the past:

In 1994:
1966 Tubbed Mustang coupe
In 1995:
1987 Ford Ranger with 351W
In 1996:
1990 Isuzu PU with 351W. (I rolled the Ranger and needed another vehicle)
In 2007:
2002 Turbo Honda S2000. (More practical, but expensive).
In 2010:
1991 Mustang LX Stock 2.3 turbo wtih Cobra IRS (Can't make a BMW out of a Mustang)

The details of these builds are quite funny, but that's a different conversation.

I did all of my own work and the best part is, I have a PhD. in Information Systems Security...LOL!

Thanks for the posts guys.

 

[chris2523]

When looking at the measurements for the Ford 7.5, 8.0 IRS, and 8.8, they all look the same. The pumpkin for the 8.0 IRS uses the 8.8 rear cover bolt pattern.

Why can't I just put the 8.8 gears and posi in the 8.0 cast iron case?

Please let me know if I'm wrong here but the gears should fit right in, shouldn't they?

Could just be bad "Internet" info:
http://www.www.lincolnvscadillac.com.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3663

you can swap the carrier, you can not swap the gears.
if you want different gears, do like kumba said and put an 8.8" IRS unit in there.

 

[dwiggy]

This depends on your definition of work.

Yes if you define that as you turn a switch on when you want full cooling, and you turn another one on when you want full heating.

No if you want any of the following.

Automatic climate control.
Dual climate control.
Control of outlet temperature.

The working climate control on an LS varies the outlet temperatures as needed to keep you comfortable. Rarely does that mean maximum cooling or maximum heating. It is usually somewhere in between. On the example given, there is no way to control the temperature coming out.

Also, there' no way that the factory cruise control, ABS, or AdvanceTrac worked.

Keeping the factory electronics and PCM, you may succeed in making everything work, but it will be a challenge that others have failed at.

Torrie looks to have my solution to programming the LS computer; "an SCT X3 programmer and a single license version of the advantage software which would give you full engine and transmission control on your end. "

 

[dwiggy]

you can swap the carrier, you can not swap the gears.
if you want different gears, do like kumba said and put an 8.8" IRS unit in there.

Thanks. This is good information. I will not waste my time tying then.

 

[JoshMcMadMac]

Torrie looks to have my solution to programming the LS computer; "an SCT X3 programmer and a single license version of the advantage software which would give you full engine and transmission control on your end. "

"Full" control is a bit of a stretch. The xCal will give you access to whatever aspects of the control modules that SCT has figured out for that particular platform.

 

[dwiggy]

"Full" control is a bit of a stretch. The xCal will give you access to whatever aspects of the control modules that SCT has figured out for that particular platform.

This could be a disappointment then.

What is your experience with the SCT X3 and Advantage III Software on first Gen Lincoln LS's?

With this tuner I have to;
control Fuel and Ignition,
turn Off unneeded transmission speed sensors and solenoids,
compensate for electronic differences in sensor signals from TPS and CPS.

Do you know if SCT hasn't figured out some of my requirements?

 

['00 lincoln ls6]

This sucks cause I was going to build up a lincoln ls with a 302.
But oh well, hes doing a newer 302 vs. my 302 late 80's motor.
Rather its a fuel injected or carb'd... And I dont care it any of the
Cluster gauges work or not.
But I give it to this guy for trying his heart out to make it workout
Like it came from the factory like that.
It has to be better than the ls with a ls1 imo.
Rather much havr a ford motor in a ford made body.

 

[Ivan_D]

a little of topic here but..

Why don't more LS enthusiasts swap in the Jag STR motor? Isn't it just a bored, supercharged version of our same motor? It's even built to fit our cars' chassis.

 

[cammerfe]

a little of topic here but..

Why don't more LS enthusiasts swap in the Jag STR motor? Isn't it just a bored, supercharged version of our same motor? It's even built to fit our cars' chassis.

Read 'Land Speed LS' in the HP section.

KS

 

[Ivan_D]

Read 'Land Speed LS' in the HP section.

KS

It looked like your reason for building on a jag block was availability/price, and you could have built your custom motor with a 3.9 if you chose.

I really meant a facory supercharged Jag 4.0/4.2 swap onto an LS. What keeps people from using such a close relative?

 

[BlackLS06]

My guess is the cost factor.

Also strs are not very common and finding just an engine alone is even more rare. And I could imagine things not working right either. Alot of money to spend on something that we don't know if it will work or not.

 

[LS4me]

Alot of money to spend on something that we don't know if it will work or not.

It's not 1969 anymore where you just fabbed up some mounts and dropped in a new drivetrain. Since the advent of OBD it's all been about the electronics. As electronics become more and more integrated (ever hear of solenoids instead of valves?) it will be harder and harder to change powerplants. Part of that is the gummint doesn't want you messing around with the engine and possible emissions increases.

Part of the peoblem is every LSes PCM is "unique" The control functions are stored in different places on each PCM. That's why a chip won't work.

That said, with enough money........... Why not buy a doner LS and just put the body on an S-Type R chassis? That would probably be easier.

 

[Kumba]

It's not 1969 anymore where you just fabbed up some mounts and dropped in a new drivetrain. Since the advent of OBD it's all been about the electronics. As electronics become more and more integrated (ever hear of solenoids instead of valves?) it will be harder and harder to change powerplants. Part of that is the gummint doesn't want you messing around with the engine and possible emissions increases.

Part of the peoblem is every LSes PCM is "unique" The control functions are stored in different places on each PCM. That's why a chip won't work.

That said, with enough money........... Why not buy a doner LS and just put the body on an S-Type R chassis? That would probably be easier.

All I'd want from an STR is the motor, brake set-up, and shock/spring/swaybar. And it would need to be an 03-05 STR.

Since I will probably end up just bolting some bilstein shocks and H&R springs into my car, that eliminates the shocks and springs portion. The brakes I am kind of torn on. For the cost of OEM and all it's parts, I am thinking I can just fab up a bracket and bolt some better aftermarket onto the car.

The huffer I would like to have, even if it is a heaton and not a whipple.