Need More Horses

[ALBUNDY]

I run into people that on a daily basis they take a GMC, Ford, and so on tech's word as gold and that is not true. Then what usually happens is that the techs word get retranslated here in the forums (all forums not just LVC) and that is where other people start to limit their cars potential. When they believe that modifying a stock computer tune will not have any chance of netting more horsepower or as least a faster more responsive vehicle is when car modding has lost. Before the actual databases for the LS's were cracked people said the same exact things about these cars too. Anything new to the market that is not understood very well gets treated like an infant child and thus doesn't get to see its true potential. There are A LLLLLOOOOOT of waaaay overly conservative people on forums such as these that don't understand the true potential of slightly modded vs stock cars. Very VERY rarely will a person ever see a stock car that cannot go anywhere in terms of additional performance. There is always a decent amount of slop left in there to keep manufacturing costs low and also to provide less of a beating to the stock drivetrain so it lasts as long as possible (past the warranty period) before anything can go wrong. They error on the side of caution with all production cars. That margin is usually quite large, especially in the luxury car department because they know they will have to answer to pizzy ol grandma and gramps if their car all of a sudden does anything out of the ordinary (shifts a little firm) or, even worse, dies.

While modern day cars dont have as much slop built into their performance as they did in the yesteryear, they still have much to be gained by the simpler standard bolt ons and computer re-tunes.

If someone will provide me with a picture or two of the stock Northstar intake and tell me what octane of fuel the manufacturer reccomends to use in those cars (provided under gas cap and usually in car manual) then I will be able to tell you right there if there is anything further to be had with the performance gains of a CAI and tune to advance spark timing, let alone stuff like transmission shift line pressure, and tranny shift point modification too.

Sorry for the long post. Please don't feel like I am trying to put Lincoln above Caddy because that isn't the case at all here. I just think that A LOT of people, both Caddy and Lincoln types alike (among many others), need to really dig deep to understand the true power/performance potential that is waiting to be unlocked in their stock vehicles.

Thanks for the reply. I will look into my factory service manual and check if I can get that info for you as I am quit interested.

 

[MediumD]

Actually, to my distinct recollection, Bbob did mention that porting/polishing intake and exhaust manifolds, for example, could be detrimental to Northstar performance. As far as the exhaust manifold, he mention, to my recollection, that porting and polishing may interfere with “scavenging,” and reducing backpressure to a free-flow rate would not be beneficial.

As far as polishing the intake manifold, again, he said it would likely not produce significant results, if any, and would likely be incompatible with factory PCM programming (I believe he mentioned intake pressure and air speed into the manifold when throttle is opened to varying degrees). In the end, he was quite skeptical of both and went so far as to recommend not doing either. While I don't remember Bbob saying that, in no uncertain terms, porting and polishing would have deleterious affects; he did add his usual caveat that those who alter or modify factory parameters assume the risk of whatever may go wrong.

bbob noted that extrude honing the exhaust manifolds would net a couple hp. Might be worth it if you already had the motor out.

The intake manifold is thermoplastic. There's not a whole lot to be done with a thermoplastic manifold.

Last I knew the Caddy's were MAS cars anyways, so whatever additional airflow that would be coming through would only need to be calculated by the MAS sensor.

...A lot of people, especially in these forums don't know that much so they take others words for gospel which is incorrect. When people don't understand car and how engines and engine management truly works is whe they error on the side of caution.

96+ northstars are MAF, 93-95 are speed density. bbob's words should be taken seriously, he works for GM powertrain, he knows more than everyone (except for maybe a few other engineers) about how northstars work. The word you're looking for it "err."


What I have listed in my previous post are proven modifications for streetable FWD northstars. Forced induction is definately possible but can be quite expensive and lets face it, the FWD platform does NOT lend itself to forced induction easily. Forced induction also requires a 'piggyback' PFC, unless you have a 93-95 and the capability to tune and program the PCM yourself. Building up a naturally aspirated motor is possible as well, it's maxed out on compression for pump gas already, so that leaves you with porting the heads and CHRfab's cams. Some of the more conservative cams might be streetable if you have at least a 3600 stall, but even going the N/A route there's only so much compensation to be had vis a vis longterm fuel trim, so a PFC might be required there as well.

 

[ALBUNDY]

bbob noted that extrude honing the exhaust manifolds would net a couple hp. Might be worth it if you already had the motor out.

The intake manifold is thermoplastic. There's not a whole lot to be done with a thermoplastic manifold.



96+ northstars are MAF, 93-95 are speed density. bbob's words should be taken seriously, he works for GM powertrain, he knows more than everyone (except for maybe a few other engineers) about how northstars work. The word you're looking for it "err."


What I have listed in my previous post are proven modifications for streetable FWD northstars. Forced induction is definately possible but can be quite expensive and lets face it, the FWD platform does NOT lend itself to forced induction easily. Forced induction also requires a 'piggyback' PFC, unless you have a 93-95 and the capability to tune and program the PCM yourself. Building up a naturally aspirated motor is possible as well, it's maxed out on compression for pump gas already, so that leaves you with porting the heads and CHRfab's cams. Some of the more conservative cams might be streetable if you have at least a 3600 stall, but even going the N/A route there's only so much compensation to be had vis a vis longterm fuel trim, so a PFC might be required there as well.

What previous posts or threads are you reffering to? Are they in this forum or the Caddy forum?

 

[rocket5979]

bbob's words should be taken seriously, he works for GM powertrain, he knows more than everyone (except for maybe a few other engineers) about how northstars work. The word you're looking for it "err."

Nothing against bbob himself but, like I said before, most manufacturer workers are the exact ones who are too close to the issue on a personal level and let their ego get in the way of the reality of things. Through the years I have seen many different examples of GM, Ford so on techs saying things that were totally outlandish and almost comical that they were sooo backwards.

Forgive me, but I don't think too highly of most techs and normal mechanics as they just dont have the skillsets and knowledge to be able to really assess a vehicles performance potential. They have to be informed about so many other unrelated issues they they cannot specialize on performance itself.

 

[ALBUNDY]

I'm having trouble with my digicam and scanner if someone could supply the info that rocket5979 request would you please do so so this thread can continue(I will still try to post the info once I get my equipment sorted out). Thanks.

 

[ALBUNDY]

Sorry.

 

[hottweelz]

As a Mark VIII Owner AND an ETC Owner.

I have to tell you... Lincoln doesn't and can't hold a candle to the Eldo.

Meet me any weekend in the Hamptons to prove otherwise.

The answer is most likely the TRANNY. SO whoever it was that pissed and moaned about the FWD Tranny, has no idea what kind of torque it pushes out at any given RPM.

Also doesn't know what the Max HP the Tranny is designed for.

Speaking of mods... how much does it cost for the Mark VIII Owners to get rid of the stupid Two-Piece Drive Shaft?

As an owner of both, ego's really suck.

Welcome HottWeelz back.

 

[ALBUNDY]

Still trying to get pics of the intake. Don't give up on me.

 

[MediumD]

As a Mark VIII Owner AND an ETC Owner.

I have to tell you... Lincoln doesn't and can't hold a candle to the Eldo.
...
Speaking of mods... how much does it cost for the Mark VIII Owners to get rid of the stupid Two-Piece Drive Shaft?

Hi, I'm also an owner of both a VIII and an ETC. I agree about the ego from either side getting in the way.

I think they're very comparable cars and I love both. I prefer the ETC as a daily driver, but the Mark is definately more responsive to mods and has a much more extensive performance aftermarket with the technical knowlege that comes with that.

The cost wouldn't be too much with a 93 one piece shaft.

Nothing against bbob himself but, like I said before, most manufacturer workers are the exact ones who are too close to the issue on a personal level and let their ego get in the way of the reality of things. Through the years I have seen many different examples of GM, Ford so on techs saying things that were totally outlandish and almost comical that they were sooo backwards.

Forgive me, but I don't think too highly of most techs and normal mechanics as they just dont have the skillsets and knowledge to be able to really assess a vehicles performance potential. They have to be informed about so many other unrelated issues they they cannot specialize on performance itself.

Ok, well bbob wasn't a mechanic, nor a dealership tech or anything like that. He is an engine designer. The design team did pretty well too, with 300hp and 295ft.lbs. out of 279ci. He knows what they did to the engine to get it to emissions and NVH standards, he knows what performance mods are worthwhile. I had been in email correspondence with the man and read nearly all he posted on cadillacforums, he doesn't say outlandish crap, he tells you how it is. If it's about a northstar, he knows. Better than me, better than you.

 

[ALBUNDY]

There is not doubt in my mind of what great knowledge Bbob has and like you, I have also learned so much for him not only about N* but Radiator fluid, Oil uses etc... Trust me if any of you guys doubt anything about the great Guru just read any of his posts in the Cadillac forum and be amazed at the knowledge he contains. Sorry rocket5979 for not pointing out that he is a engine designer. BTW MediumD if its allowed are there any other sites that Bbob resides in now? I'm not trying to get in touch with him just trying to learn more about mechanical technology. Thanks.

 

[MediumD]

This may be old but I don't drop by here very often since it's so dead.

bbob is officially completely off the map and will be for the duration of his employment with the General.

Watch the posts by "chevelle" on cadillacowners. I'm not saying it's bbob but there are similarities from the posting style to the in-depth info contained within.

 

[ALBUNDY]

This may be old but I don't drop by here very often since it's so dead.

bbob is officially completely off the map and will be for the duration of his employment with the General.

Watch the posts by "chevelle" on cadillacowners. I'm not saying it's bbob but there are similarities from the posting style to the in-depth info contained within.

Strange you should say that. I was always impressed with his knowledge about the N* as well and I often wondered if he was bbob. And yes it is very dead here.

 

[MediumD]

Then again, chevelle has stated he works for a parts supplier to GM, not GM itself like bbob.

 

[ALBUNDY]

Then again, chevelle has stated he works for a parts supplier to GM, not GM itself like bbob.

As I recall chevelle let the forum know why bbob wasn't posting anymore because their was a discussion on the forum about the members who didn't know who the old guru was and they wondered why the members who've read his posts(and those of you who know him) always bring him up and give him such repect.

 

[CadillacETC1997]

why doesnt bbob post anymore according to chevelle?

 

[MediumD]

I don't know whether or not chevelle ever talked about bbob, I had to get the facts on why bbob left straight from Sal.

 

[CadillacETC1997]

and what were those facts why did he leave!?!?!?!

 

[MediumD]

Long story short he got heat from his bosses at GM and preferred his job to posting on CF.

 

[CadillacETC1997]

heat for what tellin us how the N* worked seems like alot of bull to me i miss the guy i only came around on the tail end of his posts and he was very insightful....

 

[ALBUNDY]

Long story short he got heat from his bosses at GM and preferred his job to posting on CF.

Well I believed it was chevelle but what was stated had something to do with info that shouldn't have come out and Gm found out, of course considering you know bbob personally I would just say it's gossip and I don't want to discredit chevelle based on my memory . Anyway I can't get a clear enough picture of the intake with my crappy camera so as stated above could someone else post pictures of the intake system of the N* so we can hear what the poster has to say about performance of the N* .