North Korean Missile fails; NK Leaders Blame Bush

[FreeFaller]

war and violence has never solved anything in the history of man
ww1 yup sure solved the problem of dictators they can never rise to power
ww2 yup those Japs learned from ww1 to not to try to take over the world- they did anyway buy stealing our technolgy and making it better .now we owe them milloins of $s
korea- ya we kicked ass overthere now everthing is peacefull
vietnam-oh ya that was a police action cant consider it war
dessert storm-another asskicking by USA now they all live in peace and harmony in the sand dunes with happy hr every weds nite

Neither have ignorant comments...

 

[fossten]

Nobody here is arguing that Clinton was certainly deceived by NK. But to squarely place the blame for TODAY's situation w/ NK solely on Clinton (as you RWWs do for damn near everthing) is disingenuous. NK entered the nuclear age in the 1980s during the Regan administration, it festered during BuSh I, and Clinton attempted to derail it (but in retrospect failed) in the '90s. Then in '02 when it became obvious NK was a serious nuclear threat, instead of addressing the situation head on, GW Bush bent over and stuck our head in the sand in Iraq and spread our collective a-s-s cheeks wide for NK to rattle their saber at. Now Kim Jong Il has a hard-on at the sight of our pink pucker.

George Bush, George Bush, What cha gonna do now? What cha gonna do?

Wrong again. Clinton KNEW NK would cheat. (check out this archive)

North Korea's Dangerous Deception

Notra Trulock
Sunday, Oct. 20, 2002

North Korea has finally admitted that it has been pursuing the development of nuclear weapons despite promises to the contrary. In 1994, in a deal engineered in part by Nobel Peace Prize winner Jimmy Carter, the Clinton administration tried to bribe North Korea into abandoning its nuclear intentions. In return for a pile of cash, an annual supply of fuel oil, and new, supposedly proliferation-resistant nuclear reactors, North Korea agreed to freeze plutonium production at its nuclear facilities north of Pyongyang.

The deal became known as the Agreed Framework; but North Korea also promised to remain in the Non-Proliferation Treaty and live up to its obligations under the International Atomic Energy Agreement nuclear safeguards program.

In short, the Clinton administration thought it had bought off North Korea. What started as a limited accomplishment would soon be touted as a "major diplomatic success" for an administration short on such successes. Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright and others also scored it as a major achievement in their campaign to stop the spread of nuclear weapons.

Over the years, the intelligence community raised "concerns" about covert activities in North Korea, but the White House and State Department usually dismissed these as worst-case scenarios based on sketchy evidence.

Now the State Department reports that North Korea considers the Agreed Framework "nullified." If true, this suggests some very ominous "worst-case" scenarios largely forgotten or ignored by the media.

First, as part of the Agreed Framework, the North Koreans insisted that the U.S. refurbish and preserve a storage pool full of spent fuel rods, recently dumped from its production reactor. Many in the U.S. Energy Department, which eventually cleaned and canned the rods, thought this a bad idea and said so at that time. The White House and State Department, however, were intent on closing the deal and ignored those warnings.

Should they now opt to reprocess this fuel, Pyongyang would have enough plutonium for about five nuclear warheads, thanks to the Clinton administration and American taxpayers. That would be in addition to the plutonium the U.S. judged the North Koreans had produced by 1994, believed to be enough for two, possibly three nuclear warheads. An intelligence community estimate last December strongly implied that North Korea had already fabricated these weapons.

At the time of the agreement, there was much concern inside the intelligence community that North Korea would cheat on the deal by pursuing other routes to the development of nuclear warheads. The alternative to plutonium is highly enriched uranium (HEU), which is most commonly produced using gas centrifuges.

In 1999, the Washington Times reported that the North Koreans had tried to buy electrical components for gas centrifuges from Japan, but the sale was blocked. Now they have admitted what that suggested – that they had started secretly to produce weapons using highly enriched uranium. The facilities it requires are more easily hidden than the reactors that produce plutonium.

The State Department says that it has acquired evidence of North Korea's HEU production only recently. It is easy to understand why the Clinton administration would try to conceal the fact that the agreement with North Korea was an extremely costly blunder. We have poured $100 million a year in fuel and food into North Korea to keep Kim Jong-il from developing nuclear warheads, all in vain.

The continuation of this largesse in the first two years of the Bush administration raises the question of why it took so long to find that North Korea was cheating. In addition, U.S. diplomats in Pyongyang have been told that North Korea has "more powerful things as well," apparently a reference to its extensive chemical and biological weapons programs.

Many suspect that North Korea acquired gas centrifuges from Pakistan as payment for North Korean long-range missiles supplied in the late 1990s. North Korea actively markets several long-range missile systems to Iran, Egypt, Syria and others to generate revenue for its weapons-of-mass-destruction programs.

All this could throw a monkey wrench into the administration's plans for Iraq. North Korea, for example, could use this as a pretext to return to testing of a missile capable of delivering a nuclear warhead to targets in the United States.

Some of President Bush's critics have asked why he included North Korea in his "axis of evil." Last week's disclosures have answered that question. Like Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong-il is a cruel tyrant who starves his subjects to maintain a huge army and produce weapons of mass destruction. He has shown that his word is worthless.


*owned*

Nice try.

 

[TheDude]

war and violence has never solved anything in the history of man
ww1 yup sure solved the problem of dictators they can never rise to power
ww2 yup those Japs learned from ww1 to not to try to take over the world- they did anyway buy stealing our technolgy and making it better .now we owe them milloins of $s
korea- ya we kicked ass overthere now everthing is peacefull
vietnam-oh ya that was a police action cant consider it war
dessert storm-another asskicking by USA now they all live in peace and harmony in the sand dunes with happy hr every weds nite

Though I see your angle; I have to disagree... War/Violence have solved many many issues for the better. A few examples, American Revolution, made it possible for you to make those comments above. Civil War, ended slavery. WWII, Hitler; need I say more?

 

[fossten]

Though I see your angle; I have to disagree... War/Violence have solved many many issues for the better. A few examples, American Revolution, made it possible for you to make those comments above. Civil War, ended slavery. WWII, Hitler; need I say more?

Oh, yes...please say more...

Come toward the light, my son...

 

[fossten]

war and violence has never solved anything in the history of man

You checked all your facts before making this blanket statement? I think I'll leave Deville's post where it stands. He's already discredited you and he's not even trying.

ww1 yup sure solved the problem of dictators they can never rise to power

Again, the armistice didn't solve anything. We were doing fine until everybody decided to start talking again. But we DID finish the job in WWII and NEITHER Japan NOR Germany NOR Italy has attacked so much as a puppy dog since.

ww2 yup those Japs learned from ww1 to not to try to take over the world- they did anyway buy stealing our technolgy and making it better .now we owe them milloins of $s

Wrong. We are their partners, their friends, their protectors. We owe everybody millions of $$, so what? How does that translate in your brain to being conquered?

korea- ya we kicked ass overthere now everthing is peacefull

You don't know history. We wiped out the NK army in 1950, but the Chinese invaded and we decided to STOP fighting - big mistake, Truman fired MacArthur b/c he wanted to finish the job.

vietnam-oh ya that was a police action cant consider it war

Actually, you're wrong. Korea was called a police action. Vietnam was run by Democratic Presidents...need I say more? A couple of nukes would have ENDED that war. Instead, we abandoned the South Viets and let them be overrun.

dessert storm-another asskicking by USA now they all live in peace and harmony in the sand dunes with happy hr every weds nite

Wrong again. Once again we left Saddam to rebuild instead of conquering, thanks to lack of support for Bush 1 from the Democrat Congress.

See the pattern here? The only time there is actual peace is when somebody fights TO THE END and gets a signature of surrender. Otherwise, the baddies just go back and plan their next attack.

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

Wrong again. Clinton KNEW NK would cheat. (check out this archive)

Oh REALLY? Well the article you posted to support that allegation makes no mention that Clinton KNEW AHEAD OF TIME that NK was going to cheat on thier agreement. It wasn't until '02 when NK essentially admitted they cheated that anyone could confirm this. Prior to '02, any "concerns" that NK might cheat was all heresay and speculation. You are trying to build a strawman out of burning bush (pun intended).

(my comments in blue italics)

North Korea's Dangerous Deception

Notra Trulock
Sunday, Oct. 20, 2002

North Korea has finally admitted that it has been pursuing the development of nuclear weapons despite promises to the contrary. In 1994, in a deal engineered in part by Nobel Peace Prize winner Jimmy Carter, the Clinton administration tried to bribe North Korea into abandoning its nuclear intentions. In return for a pile of cash, an annual supply of fuel oil, and new, supposedly proliferation-resistant nuclear reactors, North Korea agreed to freeze plutonium production at its nuclear facilities north of Pyongyang. [No proof here that Clinton knew NK was going to cheat WHEN he made the agreement with them in '94. The only sin Clinton comitted was trusting NK on their agreement.]

The deal became known as the Agreed Framework; but North Korea also promised to remain in the Non-Proliferation Treaty and live up to its obligations under the International Atomic Energy Agreement nuclear safeguards program.

In short, the Clinton administration thought it had bought off North Korea. What started as a limited accomplishment would soon be touted as a "major diplomatic success" for an administration short on such successes. Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright and others also scored it as a major achievement in their campaign to stop the spread of nuclear weapons. [Yeah, SO? At that point in time there was no positive idication that NK had gone back on their word, so why WOULDN'T they put that feather in their cap?]

Over the years, the intelligence community raised "concerns" about covert activities in North Korea, but the White House and State Department usually dismissed these as worst-case scenarios based on sketchy evidence. [This was occuring as much while BuSh was in the White House as when Clinton was.]

Now the State Department reports that North Korea considers the Agreed Framework "nullified." If true, this suggests some very ominous "worst-case" scenarios largely forgotten or ignored by the media.

First, as part of the Agreed Framework, the North Koreans insisted that the U.S. refurbish and preserve a storage pool full of spent fuel rods, recently dumped from its production reactor. Many in the U.S. Energy Department, which eventually cleaned and canned the rods, thought this a bad idea and said so at that time. The White House and State Department, however, were intent on closing the deal and ignored those warnings. [Yep, again the only sin Clinton comitted was trusting NK and making some compromises. Without that provision the A/F would never have been signed by NK. Are you suggesting that no promise is better than a promise?]

Should they now opt to reprocess this fuel, Pyongyang would have enough plutonium for about five nuclear warheads, thanks to the Clinton administration and American taxpayers. [Isn't 20/20 hindsight great?] That would be in addition to the plutonium the U.S. judged the North Koreans had produced by 1994, believed to be enough for two, possibly three nuclear warheads. An intelligence community estimate last December strongly implied that North Korea had already fabricated these weapons.

At the time of the agreement, there was much concern inside the intelligence community that North Korea would cheat on the deal by pursuing other routes to the development of nuclear warheads. ["Concern" that NK "would cheat" does not constitute knowledge that they WILL cheat.] The alternative to plutonium is highly enriched uranium (HEU), which is most commonly produced using gas centrifuges.

In 1999, the Washington Times reported that the North Koreans had tried to buy electrical components for gas centrifuges from Japan, but the sale was blocked. [An attempt to cheat was thwarted at the moat.] Now they have admitted what that suggested – that they had started secretly to produce weapons using highly enriched uranium. The facilities it requires are more easily hidden than the reactors that produce plutonium.

The State Department says that it has acquired evidence of North Korea's HEU production only recently. [That would be while BuSh was in office, NOT Clinton.] It is easy to understand why the Clinton administration would try to conceal the fact that the agreement with North Korea was an extremely costly blunder. We have poured $100 million a year in fuel and food into North Korea to keep Kim Jong-il from developing nuclear warheads, all in vain. [No doubt this is embarrasing for Clinton.]

The continuation of this largesse in the first two years of the Bush administration raises the question of why it took so long to find that North Korea was cheating. [Gee, PROOF that NK was cheating fell into BUSH's hands, NOT Clintons. So WHAT has BuSh done with that PROOF? Hide behind "six party talks"??] In addition, U.S. diplomats in Pyongyang have been told that North Korea has "more powerful things as well," apparently a reference to its extensive chemical and biological weapons programs.

Many suspect that North Korea acquired gas centrifuges from Pakistan as payment for North Korean long-range missiles supplied in the late 1990s. North Korea actively markets several long-range missile systems to Iran, Egypt, Syria and others to generate revenue for its weapons-of-mass-destruction programs.

All this could throw a monkey wrench into the administration's plans for Iraq. [Oh my, how revealing this statement is!] North Korea, for example, could use this as a pretext to return to testing of a missile capable of delivering a nuclear warhead to targets in the United States. [Yep, ya think?]

Some of President Bush's critics have asked why he included North Korea in his "axis of evil." Last week's disclosures have answered that question. Like Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong-il is a cruel tyrant who starves his subjects to maintain a huge army and produce weapons of mass destruction. He has shown that his word is worthless. [Well, at least BuSh was right about ONE of those tyrants being a real threat to the free world.]

 

[MonsterMark]

[No proof here that Clinton knew NK was going to cheat WHEN he made the agreement with them in '94. The only sin Clinton comitted was trusting NK on their agreement.

Gee, kind of a major blunder seeing as how we may all become dead because of it. Thanks Willy!

 

[fossten]

Johnny shows his ignorance with regard to foreign policy in all of its full, unadulterated glory.

Johnny, you do not understand the importance of six-party talks or you wouldn't say stupid things like you did.

I will now take you to Diplomacy 101:

The fact is that NK wants to separate the US from the rest of the world in general and the Security Council in particular by demanding single party talks. That would allow NK to make all manner of outlandish claims regarding what the US says in these talks. Six-party talks not only keeps everybody honest, but also puts NK in their place, since they don't deserve the respect of single party talks, being a half-a$$ed nation who is threatening her neighbors. Incidentally, that is another reason why they should be in six-party talks. You can't threaten your neighbors and then demand to speak only with the US. It's irrational.

For you or anybody else to say that we should negotiate with them alone is irresponsible and ignorant. Hear me, Cinderella?

*owned*

 

[bufordtpisser]

My take on it is.....................

Well, he does bring up a good point, MANY in here have said that a byproduct (or was it a main reason?) of attacking Saddam was to show the rest of the world basically 'Don't F@#K WITH THE USA', examples of Syria cowering and withdrawing were used. But here we have a megalomaniac who has nukes and he has absolutely no fear of test firing intercontinental missiles.

What's your take on it?

That it is not anyone outside of the US that we are needing to be in fear of. It is our own pansy azz fiberals that keep wanting to give the keys to the castle and also want to provide the means for all others to come in and finish the job that they have already started. The total destruction and degradation of the American way of life. The continued erosion of our freedoms from within, and the total assimilation of the US by foreigners. Thats my take on it.

 

[fossten]

That it is not anyone outside of the US that we are needing to be in fear of. It is our own pansy azz fiberals that keep wanting to give the keys to the castle and also want to provide the means for all others to come in and finish the job that they have already started. The total destruction and degradation of the American way of life. The continued erosion of our freedoms from within, and the total assimilation of the US by foreigners. Thats my take on it.

Nice summary. :I

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

Johnny shows his ignorance with regard to foreign policy in all of its full, unadulterated glory.

^^^ Oh oh, here we go again. This is the proof that fossten has lost the debate: Resorting to personal attacks. WOW, what a surprise!

Johnny, you do not understand the importance of six-party talks or you wouldn't say stupid things like you did.

I will now take you to Diplomacy 101:

The fact is that NK wants to separate the US from the rest of the world in general and the Security Council in particular by demanding single party talks. That would allow NK to make all manner of outlandish claims regarding what the US says in these talks. Six-party talks not only keeps everybody honest, but also puts NK in their place, since they don't deserve the respect of single party talks, being a half-a$$ed nation who is threatening her neighbors. Incidentally, that is another reason why they should be in six-party talks. You can't threaten your neighbors and then demand to speak only with the US. It's irrational.

For you or anybody else to say that we should negotiate with them alone is irresponsible and ignorant. Hear me, Cinderella?

In principle, I agree that six-party talks are the best way to go. However recent historical facts prove that they are NOT working. All that is happening is that BuSh is attempting to hang his hat on "six party talks" as evidence that "at least he's trying diplomacy" with NK and buying him more time to skate out of this mess he's gotten us into and leave it for the next dolt to get elected into office. Its a weak-a-s-s-ed cop-out. When you try the same failed approach to something time and time again and it continues to fail, isn't it time to try something else??

Besides, why are you so afraid of BuSh entering bi-lateral talks w/ NK?? We are after all, in your own assertions, the "DEFENDERS OF THE WORLD". You say that bi-lateral talks will "allow NK to make all manner of outlandish claims regarding what the US says in these talks." Why in the world would you think that Kim Jong Il would have more credibility in the eyes of the world than your hero George Bush??

Remember the scene in the grocery store where the child is acting up because mom won't let them have some candy? Any real mom with a backbone grabs that child by the ear and whispers to them privately a promise to spank their a-s-s when they get home. Works every time.

 

[MonsterMark]

Besides, why are you so afraid of BuSh entering bi-lateral talks w/ NK?? We are after all, in your own assertions, the "DEFENDERS OF THE WORLD". You say that bi-lateral talks will "allow NK to make all manner of outlandish claims regarding what the US says in these talks." Why in the world would you think that Kim Jong Il would have more credibility in the eyes of the world than your hero George Bush??

Just once I would like to see you guys on the Left be consistent.

In Iraq we went alone (according to lefties). Now that we want world pressure, you want us to go it alone.

You guys make my head spin.

 

[fossten]

^^^ Oh oh, here we go again. This is the proof that fossten has lost the debate: Resorting to personal attacks. WOW, what a surprise!




In principle, I agree that six-party talks are the best way to go. However recent historical facts prove that they are NOT working. All that is happening is that BuSh is attempting to hang his hat on "six party talks" as evidence that "at least he's trying diplomacy" with NK and buying him more time to skate out of this mess he's gotten us into and leave it for the next dolt to get elected into office. Its a weak-a-s-s-ed cop-out. When you try the same failed approach to something time and time again and it continues to fail, isn't it time to try something else??

Besides, why are you so afraid of BuSh entering bi-lateral talks w/ NK?? We are after all, in your own assertions, the "DEFENDERS OF THE WORLD". You say that bi-lateral talks will "allow NK to make all manner of outlandish claims regarding what the US says in these talks." Why in the world would you think that Kim Jong Il would have more credibility in the eyes of the world than your hero George Bush??

Remember the scene in the grocery store where the child is acting up because mom won't let them have some candy? Any real mom with a backbone grabs that child by the ear and whispers to them privately a promise to spank their a-s-s when they get home. Works every time.

We know that Kim Jong-Il has more credibility with YOU. Wonder why that is?

You know nothing about Russia and China and their part in this. There is no way it would be wise to allow NK to isolate us from those two countries, especially when China and Russia are likely working behind the scenes to egg NK on. Don't be a fool.

Furthermore, I never said Bush was going to do diplomacy and then leave it to the next administration, like the "weak a-s-s-e-d and cop-out" Clinton administration did. You didn't notice that that's exactly how you described Clinton, did you? Because that's exactly what he did.

I've always said that Bush has to tiptoe with diplomacy b/c of the radical left like you, the media, and democrats in Congress who accuse him of rushing to war. Now he's doing it the way these cowards want it and you have a problem?

I'm not sure how many sides of your mouth are open at one time, but you certainly find a way to stretch the limits.

Get real.