Opinion on 2005 Mustang

[Dutch]

the public wasn't impressed with the GM way...hence the downfall of the F body

I would argue the F body's failure had nothing to do with power delivery in the V8 models. They were always much faster than Mustangs.

The F body failed because they didn't sell enough V6es. Roughly 75% of Mustangs '94-'04 were V6 powered. The Mustang is more like a regular car - upright seating, softer handling and ride, etc. The Camaro was a more dedicated sports car, especially with the very low seating.

The Mustang's basic architecture just appealed to more people.

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

I would argue the F body's failure had nothing to do with power delivery in the V8 models. They were always much faster than Mustangs.

The F body failed because they didn't sell enough V6es. Roughly 75% of Mustangs '94-'04 were V6 powered. The Mustang is more like a regular car - upright seating, softer handling and ride, etc. The Camaro was a more dedicated sports car, especially with the very low seating.

The Mustang's basic architecture just appealed to more people.

:I You nailed it Dutch. GM's "Mustang-like buisness model" for the f-bod is fully to blame for the demise of the f-bod. They banked on V6s to outsell V8s like the 'Stangs. What a joke, V6 f-bods NEVER outsold the V8s by any margin like the 'Stangs. GM didn't have a clue about their f-bod customer. They were too busy developing the 300th SUV variation to drop a dime into f-body marketing or evolvement. They let it die on the vine.

Bottom line is that you come off looking purely brand loyal when you say the LS1 rules all and nothing else can touch it.

LOL, "purely brand loyal"? Hardly. Yes, I love my LS1, but I also own a Dodge and Lincoln. And YES I'm mad as hell at GM for reasons stated above. They've murdered the only afordable platform for the gen-III / IV V8s, and we're left w/ a 'Vette (BTW, the LS7 Z06 is going to smoke Ford's 2x more expensive GT), CTS-V (I'd take a SRT-8 300 over it anyday) and the GTO (which is OK, but it doen't give me wood and is going to be shamed by the GT500 'Stang and is nowhere near the performance bargain the LS1 f-bod was). As I've stated before, the ONLY thing from Ford that's caught my interest is the '03-'04 Cobras, gen-2 Lightnings, GT500, and GT. They have nothing in the sports-sedan segment w/ any balls to compete w/ the CTS-V or SRT-8. Without forced induction, their cammer V8s are a yawn. That tells me that there is something fundamentally wrong with "Ford's way".

BTW, Chrysler took a look at "Ford's way" and "GM's way" and chose to follow "GM's way" with pushrods and N/A in their new HEMI. Now they are kicking butt on the streets AND in the marketplace. Meanwhile Ford only puts their blown cammers in very few select vehicles and is loosing market share. Who's your daddy?

30 mpg?? Get real... the only way an F body gets 30 mpg is once...out of a B29. They are good at mileage...better than Ford actually. But 30 mpg ain't gonna happen on a regular basis.

I got 28.5 MPG at 85MPG on my 6M WS6 before it was broken-in. SEVERAL LS1 f-bod and 'Vette owners have recorded better than 30MPH hwy (gotta have the 6M though). I haven't taken mine on a pure road-trip since then, but I have no doubt it could pull 30MPG now. I laugh at GM's commercial stating they "have 9 models that get 30MPG or better". Had they kept the f-bod alive, they could say they had 11, and 2 of them can run 13s 1/4 miles. :N

 

[Fastbird]

I just noticed all the F-Body talk and seeing as how I own two currently and have owned a total of 5 could voice an opinion and a few facts:

However, in MMFF, it appears they got a 05 GT in the 12's with a computer tune, magnaflow mufflers, MT drag radials, 4.30 gear, QA1 shocks and pullies. No power adder and no cracking open the motor... which is nice...

I have that article. They pulled some SERIOUS weight reduction on that car. Complete rear seat delete among things. It's legit, but not the norm.

There's a glaring difference in the Mustang vs. Camaro thing. Mustangs are designed and produced to appeal to a very large fan base. Hence the ergonomically designed interior and high quality of the build. The F-Body on the other hand, is an almost purely performance based vehicle. It wasn't intended for the person who wants a fast comfortable car with a soundproof interior. Hence the somewhat cramped cockpit interior, the less than perfect build quality, the rattles (though a set of subframe connectors takes care of that trust me).

Why did the F-Body die?? It certainly wasn't because of performance, because had it stayed in production, I'm quite sure that GM would have readily answered the 03 Cobra with it. I thought I heard Ford collectively sigh on August 31 2002 as the last F-Bodies rolled off the line actually. :biggrin: In all reality, GM wanted to compete with the Mustang in terms of sales per annum. But, GM was only selling about 50% of what Ford was. But think about it. How much marketing was done for the F-Body?? I can think of four commercials: One for a 95 Z28, and three for the 98 Trans Am's. That's it. The mustang got a buttload more advertising, and that coupled with the base it was designed for, made it the king.

Motors?? Dont want to even go there. It's all a matter of "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?" But the LS1 does not rule all by any means. It's a good motor, but I'd rather leak oil (LT1, got 2 of them) than burn it. In either case, the pushrod power/torque owns the overhead cam :gr_devil: .

Can't we all just get along. There's a world of ricers to be picked on out there. :Beer

 

[2001LS8Sport]

I'm getting along Fastbird! This is great! But for years the Mustang boys had to compete with the F body with a smaller engine. That didn't seem to bother the GM crowd as they all said "that's Ford's fault for going with the smaller engine". Of course, the 351 Cobra R was a different story and could handle the F body. But stock for stock, the F body GM outran the Fox body Mustang. No contest. Now, that Ford has gone s/c'd, we're getting the whining "it's super charged!" It is. But your extra cubic inches didn't bother you back then. And even though it's s/c'd, it's still WAY smaller a motor. So....stock for stock...there isn't an F body around that will run with an 03 04 Cobra. Not gonna happen. And that's what we should really be looking at. It takes a Z06 to out run the Terminator. Even the standard C5 can't do it except on rare occasion.

But if you want to go "coulda woulda shoulda", I know of a Supra around here that will flat embarass any street driven F body or Cobra I've seen...well...except for a couple of Cobras that are pushing will over 600 hp...and that would be a close race. So let's not discuss what COULD be...let's talk about what was delivered from the factory. After all, it was good enough for you GM boys for a number of years....

 

[lsbit]

BTW, Chrysler took a look at "Ford's way" and "GM's way" and chose to follow "GM's way" with pushrods and N/A in their new HEMI. Now they are kicking butt on the streets AND in the marketplace.

Maybe it is because Chrysler can make a car that looks good and doesn't rattle. The point is, most people are looking at looks before performance. You have to make a car look good first. Next make it feel good. Then make it fast for the few of us who like that.

Don't get me wrong. There are going to be people looking at Chrysler ONLY because of the power. Power can make you overlook many things, but this is only with the minority.

 

[dropped74]

I would argue the F body's failure had nothing to do with power delivery in the V8 models. They were always much faster than Mustangs.

The F body failed because they didn't sell enough V6es. Roughly 75% of Mustangs '94-'04 were V6 powered. The Mustang is more like a regular car - upright seating, softer handling and ride, etc. The Camaro was a more dedicated sports car, especially with the very low seating.

The Mustang's basic architecture just appealed to more people.

Not to mention it was a ugly car. I always liked the motor and was always impressed my the numbers. I even wanted one, but looking at them now it really was a ugly car!!!

:Beer

 

[Fastbird]

2001LS8Sport, I 100% agree with you. Stock for stock no F-Body could hang with the 03-04 Cobra. Of course, Ford HAD to release that immediately after the demise of the F-body, which was kind of a huge smack in the face to the General. Sadly, they took it, ran, and didn't come back with anything.

I've heard way too many LS1 owners piss and moan about the Cobra and it's supercharged stock motor. WAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaa!!!!!! It's a faster stock car than the LS1 equipped F-Bodies and Corvettes. So what?? Level the playing field then and quit crying about it having a blower.

Now, had GM done right and the F-Body was still in production, I'd bet that there'd be a partnership for a Magnacharger equipped F-body in answer to the Cobra. Sadly, GM has such a bad case of rectal-cranial inversion right now that they're in DEEP trouble for the forseeable future.

 

[2001LS8Sport]

2001LS8Sport, I 100% agree with you. Stock for stock no F-Body could hang with the 03-04 Cobra. Of course, Ford HAD to release that immediately after the demise of the F-body, which was kind of a huge smack in the face to the General. Sadly, they took it, ran, and didn't come back with anything.

I've heard way too many LS1 owners piss and moan about the Cobra and it's supercharged stock motor. WAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaa!!!!!! It's a faster stock car than the LS1 equipped F-Bodies and Corvettes. So what?? Level the playing field then and quit crying about it having a blower.

Now, had GM done right and the F-Body was still in production, I'd bet that there'd be a partnership for a Magnacharger equipped F-body in answer to the Cobra. Sadly, GM has such a bad case of rectal-cranial inversion right now that they're in DEEP trouble for the forseeable future.

I agree with everything you say there 'Bird. And GM should look at forced induction too. It's no secret that the smaller bore size is more efficient and easier to keep clean. That's why Ford went modular...such as using the V10 instead of just using a larger V8. But then again, GM has ALWAYS been very efficient with the new LS1/LS6 engines. They are incredible performers and very efficient using old technology that still works very well for them. Even the new Chrylser Hemi can't touch them...and I hear the fuel mileage on those cars is not what they expected or wanted and there are some upset owners.

But there are a lot of F bodies out there running hair dryers with 6 to 8 pounds of boost that are around 450 hp to the rear wheels. And that should be perfectly safe on a stock short block with a good tune. It's when they pump it higher than that is where they get in trouble. Yet, I know of a couple of Cobras right here that are over 600 hp to the rear wheels (one is 660) on stock short blocks that are perfectly safe. But if you want to go up against a GM that's been modded, you had damn well better have your stuff in order, or you are going to get your butt handed to you in a big way. I'm reading on an SVT site where the 04 Cobra and the new C6 vette have been going against each other. Stock for stock, it's still a driver's race, but all in all, the vette is the better performer. The Cobra needs to be modded to have a distinct advantage. Stock for stock, the Cobra is a little better than the standard C5. Z06 is a different story. It's an animal. Not a stock Cobra in the country that can run with it...and those that say they do are either lying or not telling the entire truth. The new Z06 with the 427 and 500 hp will probably out run the new Cobra. Similar power numbers, less weight in the vette. And it's going to be interesting to see what can be done to the new GT500. Have you seen the s/c pulley on that car? It's some sort of clutch system that is probably computer controlled. Do you think Ford is trying to stop a lot of the fraudulent warranty claims on pullied cars????

 

[99 KOBRA]

I hate the plain v6's. I've seen a few 6's and 8's w/ kits and rims and they do not looked bad. This one dealer here has a black v6 but man oh man does it look F****** sweet. If it was a 5-speed I would of probably tried for it, but almost 30k for a v6 stang auto :slam

This other dealer had a gt that was lowered, rims, kit, tint and a few other things and it was sold. Price of it was almost $43,000.

What are the specs of the v6's and v8's anyway?

I'm sure it was a Roush or Saleen Mustang that cost approx. $43k. They are sold at certain Ford dealers.

 

[rocket5979]

I'm reading on an SVT site where the 04 Cobra and the new C6 vette have been going against each other. Stock for stock, it's still a driver's race, but all in all, the vette is the better performer. The Cobra needs to be modded to have a distinct advantage. Stock for stock, the Cobra is a little better than the standard C5. Z06 is a different story. It's an animal. Not a stock Cobra in the country that can run with it...and those that say they do are either lying or not telling the entire truth.

You do know that the C6 corvette essentially has the C5 ZO6's engine, right? Rated at 405 hp. So if an 03-04 Cobra could beat a C6 Corvette then it should be a pretty close match as to what a C5 ZO6 Corvetter could do according to what your saying. Just clarifying if you were still referring to the old Z06 or the new one?

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

You do know that the C6 corvette essentially has the C5 ZO6's engine, right? Rated at 405 hp. So if an 03-04 Cobra could beat a C6 Corvette then it should be a pretty close match as to what a C5 ZO6 Corvetter could do according to what your saying. Just clarifying if you were still referring to the old Z06 or the new one?

The C5 Z06 uses a 5.7L, 405HP LS6 (gen-III) while the C6 uses a 6.0L, 400HP LS2 (gen-IV). True, the differences between the gen-III and IV blocks is very minor (Hot Rod had a good article recently on those differences), and probably alot of parts will interchange. But they are not "essentially the same". The C6 and C5 Z06 do run similar numbers, although due to less weight, the C5 Z06 IS a little faster.

WSJ had an article on the Chrysler 300 / Magnum / HEMI issue recently. Apparently DC did not expect HEMI cars to make up a significant percentage of sales, however way over 50% of those sold are HEMIs, so I'd say POWER is one of the primary factors in their current market domination. I doubt that SRT-8s will be dominant due to the extra cost factor, but DC has taken a great mainstream car with already great power and upped the ante for us power freaks. Something GM and Ford has only done w/ the Cobras, V-series and Z06s, none of which base models I'd consider "mainstream".