(Probably) Bad COP's - Looking for advice on replacements

[Geldtron]

Been having some issues with my 2002 LSe v8 lately, at first I thought it was my transmission since I was 8k overdue for a flush last week, but after the flush I was still having the same issues.

After reading this thread....
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/fo...e-transmission-shift-issues&highlight=misfire
I'm fairly positive I'm experiencing the same thing myself, even when I shift into neutral at a stoplight/sign my car still feels like its 'kicking' - albeit not quite as hard as when its in gear.
Like the post in that link between 4/5 can be pretty bad. For me it happens at the shift near 45-50, and especially at highway speeds (70-80) it gets "confused" when slowing down or speeding up and whether or not it should shift. And its certainly sluggish off the start.

I've not gotten a single error code to pop up - I've been driving it ultra grandpa style the past few weeks though (7mile commute to work helps).
I just did my spark plug's about a month ago and everything was fine for a week or so.... then this started happening.

Being pretty broke, I can't quite afford to go OEM for this repair at $50x8~$400 and I was looking to see what options others have used. Also I don't feel like replacing a single one or two NOW with OEM, only to have another go out come cold weather/winter is a good plan of action, according to that thread you can test each one individually to see which ones really need replacing.
The links in the above thread went to some really cheap ones (under 100 for all 8 coils) - I can afford to spend a little more than that, up to 200 and some change.

Found these and was wondering if anyone has used them.... or has had luck with other ones in a similar price range.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-DRAGON-...Parts_Accessories&hash=item258c966649&vxp=mtr

I'll cross post my findings/results to the thread that helped me get this far!
Thanks guys.

 

[toby1234]

I just installed those coils last week. A member on here said he's had them for a while without issue. One member said he's had them for about 20k miles. Considering even the motorcraft coils have issues prematurely, at $150, I figured I'd give them a shot. I only drive about 6k miles a year so if they give me 15k miles of good service then I'll be happy.

 

[illyc]

yep - I'm gonna be doing this soon as well. I know there is a sh#t ton of info on this board about this issue, but I wish it were consolidated into a single thread.

 

[Geldtron]

yep - I'm gonna be doing this soon as well. I know there is a sh#t ton of info on this board about this issue, but I wish it were consolidated into a single thread.

Well, its really quite the "easy fix" mechanically speaking. (so it would probably never have its own sticky)

But its also a REALLY COMMON ISSUE - 1st thing on the "REAL OFFICIAL LINCOLN LS OWNERS GUIDE!!!! Basic tips and info." sticky post. I'm surprised at my lack of luck in finding a post listing a quality option that people have had good results with, aside from OEM - and an ebay search revealed a different brand almost every other listing.
Perhaps I'll have to revist some threads and see what I can find, I need to order them tomorrow at the latest.

Found plenty of helpful "how to" info when I was replacing the spark plugs last month - should only take me half or even 25% of the time to tear it all apart and do this work myself, so at least I'll be saving there no matter what. After dropping $305 for a transmission flush... I could use saving what I can.

/begin random rant
Of which $185 is labor(1h 15m) and $80 in oil/filter, I think prostitutes are actually cheaper than dealership labor (lincon didn't even give me a free condom while they bent me over). Prostitutes also don't tack on a $35 "Shop Fee" with out saying a single word. When I called and asked what it was for he said... stuff like rags, tool upkeep, uniforms. Needless to say I was a little pissed that I'M BEING CHARGED FOR THEIR BUSINESS OVERHEAD on items that are TAX DEDUCTIBLE to boot, and had them remove the fee.
The fact that, AFAIK, there is no way to do a flush on my own and I have to bring it there makes me despise their business practices / labor rates even more.
Which is why I stick to a little shop 45minutes away where I trust the guy and he charges 1/3 n hour what they charge.
/end random rant

Still a little lost on which brand I should go with, or if I should suck it up and go OEM but its $359 and I'm pretty sure that is a little cheaper than going to the dealership directly.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Genuine-M...iter_Display:3.9L&hash=item2ed4db4b32&vxp=mtr

 

[G-RELL]

yep - I'm gonna be doing this soon as well. I know there is a sh#t ton of info on this board about this issue, but I wish it were consolidated into a single thread.

Chicken or the egg... It use to be in one easy to get to spot, but people were unwilling to do the simple search, and starting making threads asking the same questions, then people got tired of searching those threads and posted new ones.... and so on!!! until we ended up here. Amazing information, buried under a mountain of useless, lazy threads.

The one good thing is it forces those (who really do care) to read and learn more about the LS then they wanted to know in the first place. So by searching for question A, you find the answers to B,C and D also..

trust me..the stickies are as consolidated as they're going to get.

 

[Geldtron]

trust me..the stickies are as consolidated as they're going to get.

I do agree with you, the sticky posts are a great place to start.
Also I have learned quite a bit about the car and its workings from scanning threads looking for an answer to my issue.

I just haven't had much luck in finding a post that says, "brand XYZ Coil's have worked for me, I recommend using them if you don't want OEM" - Minus the post I initially linked to the $80 set, which as stated, I can afford to spend a little more for if there is brand that someone else/multiple members here have bought and had work well for them.

I've put on 90k since buying the car 5 years ago, and unlike many people here this is the first time I've had a coil (start to) go bad on me - which makes OEM appealing... but just not to the pocket book lol

 

[illyc]

Chicken or the egg... It use to be in one easy to get to spot, but people were unwilling to do the simple search, and starting making threads asking the same questions, then people got tired of searching those threads and posted new ones.... and so on!!! until we ended up here. Amazing information, buried under a mountain of useless, lazy threads.

The one good thing is it forces those (who really do care) to read and learn more about the LS then they wanted to know in the first place. So by searching for question A, you find the answers to B,C and D also..

trust me..the stickies are as consolidated as they're going to get.

just seems like those that have been here the longest know which threads are most helpful and whatnot. seems like the mods could merge those threads and sticky it - then we'd all have somewhere to point to when new questions were asked or newbs joined the site.

i dunno - that seems like the logical thing to do to me.

 

[1LoudLS]

I just haven't had much luck in finding a post that says, "brand XYZ Coil's have worked for me, I recommend using them if you don't want OEM"

there is pa problem with that, OEM aka Motorcraft is really the only brand anybody should ever recommend... there has been probably near a hundred or so different threads saying that they bought a "awesome" set that works great, only they are back less than a year later having coil problems again, or they recommend a brand and they don't have any problems then 2 out of the next 3 guys dont have such good luck...

there are basically two ways to go about it, buy a cheap set for the fraction of the cost of a new OEM set (really doesn't matter what that brand it) and maybe they work fine for you, maybe you get a bad one right out of the box, maybe you almost make it another year before you have any further problems.


for if you have coil/misfire problems, the only OFFICIAL recommendation is to replace them (all) with new OEM coils and replace all the spark plugs (at the same time)

just seems like those that have been here the longest know which threads are most helpful and whatnot. seems like the mods could merge those threads and sticky it - then we'd all have somewhere to point to when new questions were asked or newbs joined the site.

i dunno - that seems like the logical thing to do to me.

that takes a lot of time and work for the mods to do, and really for no reason. nobody even bother to read the stickies we do have. so we could have the best stickies around, your still going to have to spoon feed and link every new person that doesn't feel like putting the time in to search... the stickies have already been consolidated pretty good. and there are complete single threads covering just about every single topic you can imagine. there was also a time when every topic had a sticky and the whole damn page was full of them. (those were troubling times in the kingdom...)

 

[Wicked Ace]

- and an ebay search revealed a different brand almost every other listing.
Perhaps I'll have to revist some threads and see what I can find, I need to order them tomorrow at the latest.



http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Genuine-M...iter_Display:3.9L&hash=item2ed4db4b32&vxp=mtr

You shouldn't be shopping ebay for coils. That said, Denso and Delphi are quality oem source suppliers. In fact Delphi gives a pretty good warranty. Now mind you I have not tried these nor could I vouch for them. You need to start somewhere and folks on this board aren't adventurous. BTW have you checked the t-bird forums on this subject? They are often more proactive with regard to finding good serviceable parts.

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?ck[year_1994]=true&ck[mkt_US]=true&ck[mkt_EU]=false&ck[mkt_CA]=false&ck[mkt_MX]=false&ck[viewcurrency]=USD&ck[ID]=0&ck[idlist]=0&ck[PHP_SESSION_ID]=b0tpetm7fs6csqijsg4rl9peg6

 

[illyc]

that takes a lot of time and work for the mods to do, and really for no reason. nobody even bother to read the stickies we do have. so we could have the best stickies around, your still going to have to spoon feed and link every new person that doesn't feel like putting the time in to search... the stickies have already been consolidated pretty good. and there are complete single threads covering just about every single topic you can imagine. there was also a time when every topic had a sticky and the whole damn page was full of them. (those were troubling times in the kingdom...)

not to be argumentative but i'm a mod on another board and finding and merging good, quality threads is not difficult to do.

for something that is as ubiquitous and common as this is, it should be the #1 stickied thread on the forum.

also, the search on this site sucks. so while it's possible to find the info you're looking for, it's often not easy.

 

[Geldtron]

there is pa problem with that, OEM aka Motorcraft is really the only brand anybody should ever recommend... there has been probably near a hundred or so different threads saying that they bought a "awesome" set that works great, only they are back less than a year later having coil problems again, or they recommend a brand and they don't have any problems then 2 out of the next 3 guys dont have such good luck...

there are basically two ways to go about it, buy a cheap set for the fraction of the cost of a new OEM set (really doesn't matter what that brand it) and maybe they work fine for you, maybe you get a bad one right out of the box, maybe you almost make it another year before you have any further problems.

for if you have coil/misfire problems, the only OFFICIAL recommendation is to replace them (all) with new OEM coils and replace all the spark plugs (at the same time)

Thanks for the input loud. I just also DON'T KNOW FOR SURE that coils ARE INDEED THE ISSUE since no code has been thrown. I'm assuming they are because of the issues described in the thread linked in my first post - according to the sticky (the homebrew Owners Manual one) it could also be a vacuum seal?? But I don't know how to check for the difference between the two issues. I'm fairly intuitive but this is all new to me for the most part considering the LS is my 2nd car and my first was a 95 beretta z26 which was different mechanically/electronically.

You shouldn't be shopping ebay for coils. That said, Denso and Delphi are quality oem source suppliers. In fact Delphi gives a pretty good warranty. Now mind you I have not tried these nor could I vouch for them. You need to start somewhere and folks on this board aren't adventurous. BTW have you checked the t-bird forums on this subject? They are often more proactive with regard to finding good serviceable parts.

Not sure what is wrong about ebay for coils (or anything) if you buy "new" condition items. Its often cheaper than what the dealership down the road will sell them for. Just today I found a 8 pack of OEM (Motorcraft) coils for $350, through ford I'm looking at over $400 when you add local sales tax. May not be a lot to some, but $50 - $70 is a useful chunk of money to me.

Thanks for the heads up on the other brands, I think the ones in the THREAD I initially linked were a knock-off of one of these brands. I'll have to keep that in mind and take a look and see what I can find for reviews on them elsewhere. Have not checked the T-Bird forums, may have to do that as well - good idea.

Well I'm not being adventurous by choice, but someone has to blaze a new trail and see where it goes... even if I end up turning around and going OEM.

 

[Geldtron]

also, the search on this site sucks. so while it's possible to find the info you're looking for, it's often not easy.

use google site search -
blah blah blah site: http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?7-Lincoln-LS

not sure if the down to the forum part will work though so if it doesn't -
blah blah blah LS site: http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com

this is what i use most of the time, may or may not need the space after site: - I can't remember

 

[jjcool00]

This has been discussed in probably 1000 threads here, but F it I'm bored so I'll beat the dead horse. The coils rarely ever through a code, however some vacuum leaks do. If you wait long enough, trust me I'm speaking from experience, when the coil does throw a code it will be too late and you can almost certainly expect to replace the cats as well. Also, if you have a vacuum leak it will be pretty obvious when you're looking under the hood with the engine on you can hear a faint whistle. AND lastly, you can check the hoses visually inspect them etc. There is only ONE way to test a coil to see if it is indeed marginal or failing and the process to check the coil costs more than the replacement coil itself.

A marginal/failing coil will lead to clogged/failing cats. The choice is simple: 1. Buy OEM coils all 8 and plugs replace them spend the $400-$500. 2. Buy aftermarket coils/plugs replace them spend $200 and have to replace them again and maybe your catalytic converters as well ($1,200 EACH) 3. Do nothing and eventually have to do #1 or #2 or get rid of the car.

 

[joegr]

...Not sure what is wrong about ebay for coils (or anything) if you buy "new" condition items. ...

It depends on the seller. Sometimes used coils are cleaned up and sold as new. Sometimes you get new coils that were returned or failed testing. Way back, when Ford made the first major revision to the coils to increase their lifespan, e-bay sold a lot of the old rev as if it were the new one. Of course, there are good experiences on e-bay too. Tasca should be safe, for example.

What concerns me about all the off-brand coils is that the market is just not big enough for so many manufacturers to be duplicating the coil. I think that it is more likely that most are seconds (failed the Ford quality tests) from the same manufacturer.

 

[Geldtron]

This has been discussed in probably 1000 threads here, but F it I'm bored so I'll beat the dead horse. The coils rarely ever through a code, however some vacuum leaks do. If you wait long enough, trust me I'm speaking from experience, when the coil does throw a code it will be too late and you can almost certainly expect to replace the cats as well. Also, if you have a vacuum leak it will be pretty obvious when you're looking under the hood with the engine on you can hear a faint whistle. AND lastly, you can check the hoses visually inspect them etc. There is only ONE way to test a coil to see if it is indeed marginal or failing and the process to check the coil costs more than the replacement coil itself.

A marginal/failing coil will lead to clogged/failing cats. The choice is simple: 1. Buy OEM coils all 8 and plugs replace them spend the $400-$500. 2. Buy aftermarket coils/plugs replace them spend $200 and have to replace them again and maybe your catalytic converters as well ($1,200 EACH) 3. Do nothing and eventually have to do #1 or #2 or get rid of the car.

Didn't mean to make you beat a dead horse, I hella appreciate the info, I just happen to be at work and didn't have the time on my lunch break to search around for the answer you provided on how to tell if its a vacuum leak. I hope to order the parts here today, but I still wasn't positive this is the issue - your kind help through boredom wont be wasted I promise

Also, thanks for info/your opinion on OEM vs aftermarket - I just spent a ton of $ on the highest grade spark plugs available ($80 some total I think) from the local NAPA last month, I may just have to bite the bullet and go OEM since I would like this car to run with out issues (crosses fingers) for the next 2 years - and I really don't want to have to dig back in to replace one or two or risk damaging the cats.

I guess the reason I was hoping I could test the coils was to see if I could get away with replacing some now - and if the issue comes back a few months down the line when I have more $ replace the rest.
I guess I have a credit card for a reason though right?!?

 

[Geldtron]

It depends on the seller. Sometimes used coils are cleaned up and sold as new. Sometimes you get new coils that were returned or failed testing. Way back, when Ford made the first major revision to the coils to increase their lifespan, e-bay sold a lot of the old rev as if it were the new one. Of course, there are good experiences on e-bay too. Tasca should be safe, for example.

What concerns me about all the off-brand coils is that the market is just not big enough for so many manufacturers to be duplicating the coil. I think that it is more likely that most are seconds (failed the Ford quality tests) from the same manufacturer.

I'm guessing your talking about "DG-515 & DG-529" with DG-529 being the newest revision I assume since the part# is higher??

I've bought a few things from the tasca ebay store, and other highly rated parts sellers with no issues myself - But I do see what you mean about people selling off the old ones as the new ones, many listings for the OEM don't actually say if its 515 or 529. Just contacted a seller though to clarify which I would receive. Auction post title says 515, images say 529 :/

 

[jjcool00]

If the cats were $100-$200 I would say risk the aftermarket coils or maybe risk replacing some of the coils, but considering the cost and availability of parts it would be extremely wise to just replace all coils/plugs together. Trust me, I went down this road and had to learn the hard way.

 

[Wicked Ace]

What concerns me about all the off-brand coils is that the market is just not big enough for so many manufacturers to be duplicating the coil. I think that it is more likely that most are seconds (failed the Ford quality tests) from the same manufacturer.

Joe
Do you know for a fact that Motorcraft manufactures their own coils? Or are they, Like most things these days sourced from a secondary vendor? They have been made in China for some time now. Keep in mind Motorcraft makes money licensing their patents and designs (the formerly available Visteon comes to mind). I always thought of Motorcraft as Ford's in house brand.
The specs and standards are there for all to build to, Denso and Delphi are good OEM manufacturers and suppliers not some Ford cast off. The coils on my '02 Camaro SS are labeled Delphi. I'm just saying, I know your loyalty, but how long has it been since somebody has come up with a good lower cost alternative? For that matter when have you last seen a post other than somebody saying they saved a bundle buying off ebay or Advance Auto? Of course we never hear the end of the story.
I don't need coils but I would be looking there as an alternative.

 

[joegr]

Actually, I'm pretty certain that Ford outsources manufacture of the coils (as they do with very many other things). I think you misunderstood my comment.
Example:
Ford has Chinese supplier/factory manufacture coils for them.
Ford indicates to supplier what tests must be done and what the "passing grades" are for the coils.
The manufacture stamps the coils that pass as Motorcraft and ship them to Ford.
The ones that fail, are stamped with other brand names and sold as such. Of course, they probably also build other ones that never even get tested (to Ford's quality requirements) and sell those as other brands too.

It doesn't matter. I'm wasting time on this. You have already decided.

I know that the OEM coils last from 60K to 100K+ miles. I know that some of the aftermarket coils fail right out of the box. I have zero evidence that any of them outlast the OEM coils. I know that if you can't afford the correct coils, you have purchased the wrong car.

 

[illyc]

well i'm having my third coil in about 6 months replaced by the dealer under the extended warranty tomorrow, which ends tomorrow for me lol.

so i fully anticipate having to address this in 60-90 days. i've already read quite a bit on it but will be doing some more. where is the best source (re: cheapest) for OEM coils? doesn't advance auto or someone have coils with lifetime warranties?

 

[Geldtron]

If the cats were $100-$200 I would say risk the aftermarket coils or maybe risk replacing some of the coils, but considering the cost and availability of parts it would be extremely wise to just replace all coils/plugs together. Trust me, I went down this road and had to learn the hard way.

Thanks for the heads up!!

 

[Geldtron]

I really don't want to be a dick here after all the help on this thread. So please take this with a grain of salt and know that its not personal.

I know that if you can't afford the correct coils, you have purchased the wrong car.

I know this "fact" gets thrown around A LOT on this forum... but honestly this is NOT a Mercedes or a Lotus or what have you. Yes I know the window sticker on my car says $44k but...

A. It doesn't change the fact I only paid 7grand (cash) for the car 5 years ago when it has 90-100k on it
B. I've put about 5/6 grand into the car in 5 years - Granted 900 for tires and about 3k in the suspension overhaul (swear I've replaced just about everything possible down there) - Luckily this is the first real "mechanical issue that prohibits my ability to drive" I've had.
C. My car is at 180k miles and the body is starting to rust out (thx MN winters)
D. I'm contemplating just how much more money I want to throw at this thing
E. LIFE HAPPENS, and what you can afford in life changes - it just so happens that this MONTH/ NEXT MONTH, my checkbook would appreciate not losing another $400

I've taken EVERY GOD DAM HIT this car can throw at me without flinching to hard or even trying to go for non-OEM brand parts. I've always sucked it up. I've also always been in a slightly better financial situation.

I knew what I was getting into with this car, I did my research and even found this forum before purchasing the car. I know its expensive to repair/maintain. But when you get to the point where the money you put into it = the purchase price you start to question the slope you find yourself on. I really do hope this car lasts me a few more years with out to much trouble, but like most daily driver's at this age it starts to become a mind **** on whether or not its worth spending $ to fix more **** or just sell it and get something new and start the whole process over again, with a cheaper to maintain car.


She has been pretty good to me, and I'm not ready to say goodbye yet - I just don't know if its worth buying the Diamond Necklace when she wont know they are Cubic Zerconia. That way if she leaves me sooner than I'm hoping - it wont hurt so bad.


Like I said, don't take it personal - honestly your a very helpful person on this forum - and in general this is a very good and helpful community. I just really hate how often I see this said when (most) everyone here is well aware of how expensive the L(ittle)S(lut) is. <--- see how not angry I am, I just made a funny! lol

 

[joegr]

It doesn't matter how much or how little you paid. Here's the simple fact on this particular repair/maintenance.

If you can't afford $500 for coils and plugs, how are you going to afford $200 for cheap coils and plugs + $2000 for new catalytic converters + $200 for cheap coils and plugs +...

You think you are saving money, and you use the excuse that you can't afford to do it right. If that's really true, you need to sell it and move on.

 

[Geldtron]

Here's the simple fact on this particular repair/maintenance.

If you can't afford $500 for coils and plugs, how are you going to afford $200 for cheap coils and plugs + $2000 for new catalytic converters + $200 for cheap coils and plugs +...

You think you are saving money, and you use the excuse that you can't afford to do it right. If that's really true, you need to sell it and move on.

Which is EXACTLY WHY I MADE THIS POST.

To find out if going NON-OEM is something that wont or will hurt me in the long run... or the short run depending on the life of the car.

If the threat of my cats getting ruined is really that great because of a choice to save $200/$300 now - well than thanks for the advice not to do so. Looks like I'll be using my credit card. [serious]
That kind of advice OR an OEM-Alternative is all I really wanted to hear by making this post. Simple as that.

I just didn't want to/see someone else be berated on how "if you can't afford repairs z,x,y,m,o,b,c,e - than you shouldn't own the car"
I don't even think your comment was directed at me - but I see it said so many times... I think that saying that is truly 'beating the dead horse'.

Also, honestly, not using being broke as an 'excuse' to do it the cheap way, I've just gotten to the point with this car where if I can save a few $ I would like to do so. EVEN IF $$ WERE NOT AN ISSUE AT THIS VERY MOMENT and if the parts that are $200 cheaper than OEM work/have worked for other members to an extent where they would be comfortable saying "go for brand?? many members here have used them and had great luck" - **** YES I would decide to save the $200 and go with the off brand.
Obviously.... that is not the case, but it does seem that a few people HAVE had good experiences with the DragonFire Coils.

I hope no one is permanently butt hurt over what I said, I just think its a really degrading thing to say when that 'fact' is seriously already obvious to whomever your saying it to.
It may not seem like it but that kind of passive aggressiveness can really bring someone down when they are already in a difficult situation - a difficult situation you know nothing about.
For instance, I'm in a very tough (unexpected) pickle with my health right now and medical bills have gone higher than I ever imagined with insurance only covering so much of it. So that $200 that many of you here could piss on during a cloudy day - means a month of food or a months worth of prescriptions I just saved myself. On top of that I ran into these car issues when I was already trying to figure out how I'm going to save up and buy a new set of blizzaks for the winter that is only 2 months away.

Again, thanks to everyone for the input.
I really do hope there are no hard feeling joegr, I'm not normally in such a tight life spot and I'm not normally one to call people out on the things they say. Hell this is the internet and I'm a cat for all you know, and people say not nice things all the time. I have my moments in video games. I'm over it, but what you said did hit me in the gut pretty hard for a split second, and in the mind set of keeping this a pleasant community in which people can continue to look to for solid advice(it all is), myself included. I just thought I would say something since one of my favorite games to play (League Of Legends) has turned into a toxic community.

I'm trying to remain as polite and non-toxic as I can here, while still making my point that not being so quick to putting someone down.... can go a LONG WAY in keeping this a GREAT FORUM!

Now this thread is completely off topic but its ok.

 

[1LoudLS]

I just didn't want to/see someone else be berated on how "if you can't afford repairs z,x,y,m,o,b,c,e - than you shouldn't own the car"
I don't even think your comment was directed at me - but I see it said so many times... I think that saying that is truly 'beating the dead horse'.

its not that comment was meant as any kind of insult, but more of a warning about the car itself and what long term tends to turn into. one of its biggest problems is its lack of aftermarket support... a lot of the common failures on this car don't have any options other than expensive overpriced dealer parts. at least cars that have a good selection of aftermarket parts usually have the option of either high performance parts or cheaper options. with our wonderful machine, nine out of ten things made for it that are not OEM are sub par knockoffs. as these cars start to show their age, the cost just to keep them in decent condition can become staggering... (the one thing british cars are know for after all is expensive maintenance and a whole lot of it! lol)