Question about throttle.

[DarthGanja]

Got a question regarding the throttle on my 04 LS V8.

So I got the ETC ENGINE FAILSAFE MODE. I take the car for a diagnostic at the ford dealer. They tell me I need a new throttle body, they quote me $1200.00 incl diagnostic. I pay them $140 and pick up the car. He tells me they can't check the coils until I fix the throttle body.

So I took off my KKM air filter and all tubes running to the throttle body to see how the TB is acting. When the car is off, I can freely move the gold plate in there. When the car is started, I can't move that plate and it does not open or show any signs of movement when the accelerator is depressed. The car revs up, but that gold plate doesn't move. If I blow into the MAF sensor, which is just hanging off to the side, the car will stall. This leads me to believe the MAF sensor is working. I know when everything is working fine, that gold plate moves when you rev the engine up.

What I'm wondering is, is if that plate is closed and not opening, because the engine can sense that something is wrong with the airflow(because I have the air filter and tubes disconnected) and it is compensating by keeping the throttle plate closed? Or should that plate move regardless of said missing components?

 

[oddball]

Rewind a little.
The Gen2 TB is a throttle-by-wire, which means there's a little motor that moves the throttle blade. When the engine is off, it's not engaged. When it's running, it is. So you were pushing against a delicate tiny motor that's only intended to turn a blade. Be careful.
In neutral, the engine doesn't need much air at all to rev. So I bet the blade was moving, only it was a very little bit.
Note that since it's PCM controlled, flooring the pedal does not mean the blade fully opens. The PCM will interpret what you want, and do what it thinks best. And since the MAF wasn't in the airstream, the PCM was totally guessing on everything anyway.

In any case, your problem is almost certainly the coils causing interference and errantly throwing the TB code. If you're under 100k miles, there's a warranty for the dealer to do a stress test.
Also post the exact ODB codes that were registered.

 

[joegr]

Rewind a little.
The Gen2 TB is a throttle-by-wire, which means there's a little motor that moves the throttle blade. When the engine is off, it's not engaged. When it's running, it is. So you were pushing against a delicate tiny motor that's only intended to turn a blade. Be careful.
In neutral, the engine doesn't need much air at all to rev. So I bet the blade was moving, only it was a very little bit.
Note that since it's PCM controlled, flooring the pedal does not mean the blade fully opens. The PCM will interpret what you want, and do what it thinks best. And since the MAF wasn't in the airstream, the PCM was totally guessing on everything anyway.

In any case, your problem is almost certainly the coils causing interference and errantly throwing the TB code. If you're under 100k miles, there's a warranty for the dealer to do a stress test.
Also post the exact ODB codes that were registered.

What he said.

 

[1LoudLS]

I have twice now had a bad coil (#4 both times) cause failsafe mode with codes pertaining yo the throttle body.

a good dealer shod know this and test the coils like they should.

 

[DarthGanja]

Thanks, Oddball.

That is excactly what I was wondering and you answered my question perfectly.

I have ordered new coils and plugs off of eBay. Unfortunely, my financial situation ATM made the cheap crap the obvious option for me at this time. I ordered 8 aftermarket coils and motorcraft plugs for $112.00 + $35.00 shipping to Canada(free if i lived in the US). When i have problems with the cheap coils, I'll order the visteons. Planning on doing the job as soon as parts arrive.

I'll be sure to update. Thanks again.

 

[DarthGanja]

I have twice now had a bad coil (#4 both times) cause failsafe mode with codes pertaining yo the throttle body.

a good dealer shod know this and test the coils like they should.

I don't think they have a clue there at that dealership. I asked him to stress test the coils and he said he couldn't do anything until I put a new TB in her. Another dealer I will never visit again.

 

[trickett90]

I don't think they have a clue there at that dealership. I asked him to stress test the coils and he said he couldn't do anything until I put a new TB in her. Another dealer I will never visit again.

Some of them are really good at just throwing parts at a problem, which is something I can do in my garage. With beer.

 

[BlackLS06]

Some of them are really good at just throwing parts at a problem, which is something I can do in my garage. With beer.

Take off old part, put on new part.

Turn on car. Car run good, finished. Car no run good, car not finish.

 

[DarthGanja]

I had actually started another thread before this one where I give a little more info on the situation. Not sure how to link it so, I thought I'd just copy and paste it. Keep in mind this was posted before I opened this thread.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hello everyone.

Let me start by saying thank you to all of those who have posted there problems and fixes on these boards. Every time I have a problem with my '04 LSV8, I can find a solution on here, your comments have been an invaluable resource.


So far I have had to experience the dreaded transmission problem with the hard shifts into third, $4200.00 to rebuild with the servo bore kit(I think that's what it was). I also had to replace the DCCV, an easy, fairly cheap fix, $120.00 off eBay if memory serves.

Now I am experiencing the ETC Engine Failsafe mode message. Sheesh. Real bad timing too, just starting a new job next week, am broke and now the dealership tells me $1200.00 for a new throttle body. I know, right? I digress...

I know from reading on these boards that a common problem with these engines, is the coil, or coil on plugs, are defective(more on that later) and when they are failing, they can lead to a miss diagnosis of a faulty throttle body. Apparently the faulty coils interfere with the correct reading of the codes, the computer is actually spitting out the wrong codes, or atleast that is what I'm gathering.

So I take the car to my local dealer with the hopes that the coils are faulty and it will be covered under the extended warranty that I keep reading about on these boards. I drop the car off in the middle of the night and write on the key drop envolope that I had another garage tell me that the coils were shot. A bit of a white lie, yes, but only so I could direct them into looking at the coils. I get a call this morning from the garage. They say I'm reading the p2107 and p2110 codes...faulty throttle body apparently. And yes, $1200.00 including the $140 diagnostic. I ask him about the coils, he seems to not know what I'm talking about. I tell him about what I have read on here about the coils and such, he finally looks up the TSB on my car. He tells me "oh yeah, there is an extended warranty on the coils...now let's see here..." and get this! " oh that warranty is for 160,000kms(yes, I'm Canadian) and your car has 164,000 Kms." So now they won't even look at em for the extended warranty.

I realize there fairly cheap to change all 8 coils yourself, and I understand changing the throttle body is a snap. I can get a used throttle body on eBay for like $180 and coils for like $100.

I guess what I am wondering about is if my car would be misfiring if it were simply a throttle body. The first time my car went into limp mode, it was under pretty heavy throttle, then I pulled off to the side of the road and turned it off and restarted it, then it was fine for about a week. Then it happened again but this time the engine was running really rough, and the problem doesn't go away when I restart the car. I should also point out that when the car is running, I can hear a loud hissing sound coming from the KKM air intake, which leads directly to the throttle body. Would bad coils cause this hissing sound?

Anyway, because of that hissing, i think I'm going to order a salvaged TB off eBay and try that, unless someone has a better idea or something I may be overlooking. (edit: obviously I'm just ordering coils and plugs now)
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Long winded, I know, but that's the story. No need to respond to any of this message, I got all the info I needed from the guys that visited the page. Thx again all.

 

[oddball]

FWIW, the hissing is normal. The stock intake tubes have mufflers to reduce intake noise, including hisses. The aftermarket tubes don't.
Threw me for a loop the first time, too. Sounds just like an intake leak.

 

[DarthGanja]

FWIW, the hissing is normal. The stock intake tubes have mufflers to reduce intake noise, including hisses. The aftermarket tubes don't.
Threw me for a loop the first time, too. Sounds just like an intake leak.

I have had the KKM on there for over a year, never sounded like that before but it had been awhile since I ran her. Parts should be here anyday, I'll let you know how it goes and if that hissing is gone.

 

[DarthGanja]

Ok, I can finally update you guys.

Parts finally got here yesterday. 8 cheapo coils and 8 motorcraft oem plugs. Low and behold, after letting it run for over an hour and then taking her for a quick 30km spin, my problems seem to be fixed. The job was pretty easy with the right tools and the cheapo coils seem to be working great...for how long? We shall see.

I'm really considering paying a visit to the shop that quoted me a new throttle body and refunding my money. Anyone got any advice on that, or should I even bother? I can just imagine how impressed I would have been had I replaced the TB as they suggested, and the car did the same thing on the way out of the dealership.

I can't thank you guys enough for your advice. Cheers.

Ps. That hissing noise seems to have disappeared too.

Pss. I still can't get over how the service advisor told me he couldn't check the coils until the TB was fixed. What a joke! Advantage Ford in Calgary...stay away from these con men.