Rough running engine

LDM

LDM

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I got my StopTech SS Brake Lines installed today at a brake shop. (2002 LS V8 Sport).

I leave the shop, drive .5 miles and the engine starts missing and runs really bad. I make a turn towards the Lincoln dealer... within a mile or two the car starts smoking in the front and really bad from the rear (white ish)... and still running rough.

Pretty soon the smoke stops.

I am hoping the smoke was from the brake fluid burning off from spillage during the SS Brake Line install.

Car still runs rough. Normal temp. No CEL.

Drive slow for 10 miles, things get better. When I accelerate hard it runs ok. Slow down it's rough. Get 1 mile from the Lincoln dealer and it's running fine.

Pull into the dealer, explain everything. Car is running fine, and no smoke. No CEL light. They said it could be coils, and that was my thought.

They wanted $125 to diagnose... but said it would be better to drive it more near by and get a CEL.

I asked about all new coils, new plugs, new VCG. $1800 + $125 = $1925.

Drove it 7 miles... kinda rough running at times.

I called Max at Chapman/5 Star, got someone to drive me there and bought all coils, plugs and VCG's directly from Max in person.

I have an appointment tomorrow at 7:15AM with my Lincoln dealer (not Max's)... as it's closer to home.

Going to get 50% off diagnosis tomorrow AM... (hope it's just coils).

Planning on replacing all coils and plugs tomorrow... return VCG to Max if no oil found around coils/plugs... saving $500 in labor for VCG replacement.

(I can't do this myself due to only having 1 car, not enough tools, no one to run me somewhere to get extra tools/parts if needed... and it's 120-130 degrees in the garage during the day, 100-115 at night in the garage in Phoenix).

Hopefully it's nothing "major"... just expensive coils/plugs/labor.
 
Just checked the fluid levels, they are ok (Brakes, Coolant etc).
Went for a 24 mile drive (1 mile East, 1 mile South, 1 mile West, 1 mile North and repeated that 6 times... multiple stops, rabbit starts, normal starts, with A/C on and off, SST shifting and normal etc). Could not get a CEL. Brakes are ok... maybe less mushy with the new SS brake lines. Engine is not running smooth... but not really rough either now. Definate loss of power... kinda missing at times. No smoke. I have owned the car for 6000 miles, and had coil#7 replaced within the 30 day initial warranty. Car has 107,000 miles now. I have no idea when any of the other coils, plugs or VCG's were replaced - or if at all. Suspect marginal coil(s).
 
Diagnosis showed no codes. It showed some misfires on 3 cylinders. Test drive showed -40 on 1 cylinder's spark and -30 on 2 other cylinders... (not the same cylinders as found in history just previously mentioned).

They pulled all COP's and plugs... it had two different off brand COP's and Autolite plugs in there. No oil anywhere in any well or on any cop or plug.

Water had gotten into the cop area on the passenger side last well next to the firewall... kinda rusty plug too. They said that's common with water coming off the cowl and draining down. Not a VCG seal or o-ring issue... just put some sealant on the cop cover lid.

Had all COP's and plugs replaced with Motorcraft parts. Sealant put on cop cover lids.

Got on the road to return the VCG's to Max... had same problem... shaking and felt like it's running rough... seemed to run great floored and shifted better though (still shaking).

Took it back to the Lincoln dealer. Turns out it was a rear tire the whole time. Didn't see any bubbles or tire separation. They said one looks flat spotted, but I couldn't see it and I am not convinced of that. They said it's not a wheel bearing or hub issue. Had them rebalance both rears. Same problem driving home.

So had the $980 expense of COP's, Plugs and Labor... (probably needed, but I didn't need the expense of those plus tires too).

They also reflashed the PCM with a newer version.

Now looking for high performance "all-season" tires.

Continental DWS 255/45/17 comes to mind... looking for other all-season brands now.
 
+1 on DWS (not from personal experience). They are highly regarded.

What's the date on your Toyo Versado XLs? Mine are from 07.
 
I like Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus 235/50ZR17.

The sealant on the coil covers may not work. The correct fix (according to TSB) is to replace the gasket that is letting water get dumped on the engine. I have the TSB at home. I'll look it up later.
 
joegr said:
I like Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus 235/50ZR17.

The sealant on the coil covers may not work. The correct fix (according to TSB) is to replace the gasket that is letting water get dumped on the engine. I have the TSB at home. I'll look it up later.
Click to expand...

I talked to the tech, they let me go into the bay area and look at everything. He mentioned they mention replacing the gasket, but he said it's not required, cost more... just need sealant.

At least I know now after seeing everything tore apart that I could pull those later and do them myself.
 
I may be stretching here... but my car hasn't been right since I had the SS brake lines installed.

I mentioned above that I thought it wasn't running right, and it was smoking when I left after getting the SS lines installed.

I assumed maybe brake fluid was leaked, causing smoking once the brakes or exhaust got hot. That smoking stopped within miles.

The car had bad shaking, thinking it was the engine, Lincoln replaced the cops and coils.

I still have that shaking issue and Lincoln now says it's my rear tire(s).

I ordered tires... but...

If brake fluid was leaked, could it have gotten on my new shocks from last week... and maybe it's my shocks failing causing tire bounce?

I would hate to get new tires, and cause them to wear wrong, due to some other problem that is really the root cause that is not resolved yet.

Help me think outside of the box here. Why would new shocks last week be ok, and existing tires be okay... and drive for over 500 miles after new shocks installed... then get new SS lines and have temporary smoke and now have bad shaking?

Something is not right with the whole process of cops, plugs, tires needing to be installed since yesterday.

What else could be wrong in the rear... if it's not the tires... that may have gotten messed up during SS brake line installation?
 
joegr said:
I like Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus 235/50ZR17.

The sealant on the coil covers may not work. The correct fix (according to TSB) is to replace the gasket that is letting water get dumped on the engine. I have the TSB at home. I'll look it up later.
Click to expand...

Plus One on the Michelins. They work very well on my LS. (I did go 245-45)

KS
 
LDM said:
I cancelled that order due to too many really bad reviews, still looking at tires...
Click to expand...

As far as inexpensive tires go, General Exclaim UHP and Goodyear Eagle F1 Allseason served me well. I am currently running Bridgestone RE9560AS Pole Positions.
 
LS4me said:
As far as inexpensive tires go, General Exclaim UHP and Goodyear Eagle F1 Allseason served me well. I am currently running Bridgestone RE9560AS Pole Positions.
Click to expand...

I have been looking at the General Exclaim UHP for over a month. Just read all your comments from previous years about them... then found your comment on this thread. You and maybe one other have ran the General Exclaim UHP.

I think it's between the Conti Extreme DWS or General Exclaim UHP.
Only negatives I can find on the DWS are soft sidewall, and I don't like the look of the tread pattern.

I prefer the tread look of the General Exclaim UHP... just don't know that "General" makes good tires.
 
LDM said:
I have been looking at the General Exclaim UHP for over a month. Just read all your comments from previous years about them... then found your comment on this thread. You and maybe one other have ran the General Exclaim UHP.

I think it's between the Conti Extreme DWS or General Exclaim UHP.
Only negatives I can find on the DWS are soft sidewall, and I don't like the look of the tread pattern.

I prefer the tread look of the General Exclaim UHP... just don't know that "General" makes good tires.
Click to expand...

The only issue I had with them was below about 35°. That temperature turned them into hard plastic. Above about 40° they were quite sticky. The only reason I didn't use them this time is I don't trust Discount anymore and Costco doesn't sell Generals. The other local tire places are also suspect. There doesn't seem to be any pride in workmanship here anymore. The only thing that matters is how fast they can throw the tires and weights on the wheel and move on!
 
General is now owned by Continental. Don't quote me on this (google it), but they are made in Germany, at least the ones I want for winter (Altimax Arctic) are.
 
LS4me said:
The only issue I had with them was below about 35°. That temperature turned them into hard plastic. Above about 40° they were quite sticky. The only reason I didn't use them this time is I don't trust Discount anymore and Costco doesn't sell Generals. The other local tire places are also suspect. There doesn't seem to be any pride in workmanship here anymore. The only thing that matters is how fast they can throw the tires and weights on the wheel and move on!
Click to expand...
I don't trust Discount either... every tire I mention they say is a great tire and great company. The tire they originally sold me yesterday, that I cancelled, had a consistant bad review on all boards about cupping, noise, not lasting, don't buy these etc... but Discount said oh these are quiet, last forever, you will be real happy with these.
M4rk said:
General is now owned by Continental. Don't quote me on this (google it), but they are made in Germany, at least the ones I want for winter (Altimax Arctic) are.
Click to expand...

Everything I have just read comfirms they are owned by Continental.

I just ordered these, should be here in 3 days... but they are discontinued... so it all depends on if they can find them.

General Exclaim UHP 255/45ZR-17 98W:
http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/fi...=32714&ar=45&rd=17&rc=AZWINT&fsv=false&cs=255
 
LDM said:
I don't trust Discount either... every tire I mention they say is a great tire and great company. The tire they originally sold me yesterday, that I cancelled, had a consistant bad review on all boards about cupping, noise, not lasting, don't buy these etc... but Discount said oh these are quiet, last forever, you will be real happy with these.
Click to expand...

The balance issue I seem to be chasing they say is a bent wheel! They have said that about every wheel I've had! What are the chances of having 4 sets with at least one bent wheel? I currently suspect the tires as I only get the shimmy between ~65mph and ~71mph. Above ~71mph (until 100mph anyway ;)) and below ~65mph the ride is smooth.
 
I went to another Discount Tires, had them swap the rear wheels to the other side... and check balancing. They said the one I was concerned about was off by 2.5 ounces... even though both rears were rebalanced yesterday at the Lincoln dealership. No charge since I just bought new tires from Discount Tire.

I drove multiple places, about 100 miles tonight. It is better... still shaky but different. That tells me it's probably the tires going out (unless someone this Monday bent a wheel torquing them down when doing the SS brake lines). Since it's less shaky though, I'd say tires are having issues.

I snuck a couple pictures of each wheel well, anyone see any problem in there?
(New MotorCraft Sport Shocks, New Eibach Springs last week, new StopTech SS Brake Lines Monday this week).

0810111731.jpg


0810111733.jpg
 
Are the toe links OK? With the wheel off the ground, try to turn it in/out. Movement is bad.
 
oddball said:
Are the toe links OK? With the wheel off the ground, try to turn it in/out. Movement is bad.
Click to expand...

Good catch, good point! I know the boots are torn.

After reading this thread I want to replace things... just don't know which things to order...

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=75683

1) Toe Link (2)
2) Stabilizer Bar Link (2)

What about rear sway bar bushing?

Anything else?

Max is looking for the Toe Links (Stabilizer Bar Links he has in stock).
(Max said the nuts and bolts are reusable, nothing is nylon)

Edit: Max just called back, he found the Toe Links locally and he should have them by 2PM today.
 
Toe Links look bad in these pics I just took.
Don't know if the Stabilizer Bar Links are bad...

Driver's side pics:

0811111050.jpg


0811111052.jpg


0811111054.jpg


0811111055.jpg


0811111055a.jpg
 
The true test is to try to move the wheel. It can look like absolute crap but still be tight. Anyone that did an alignment should have checked, as failed parts would prevent them from getting a proper alignment done. As a side note, it's usually good to get an alignment with a new set of tires.
Mine were all torn up, but still in good shape. They won't be forever - no boot means dirt gets in there, grease gets out, and it'll fail sooner rather than later.

That driver side outer end of the toe link looks very bad. It should be vertical - more like the passenger side, although that doesn't look all that great either.

The stabilizer bar links actually look fine. Same as with the toe link - try moving the stabilizer and see if the links move too much or make noise. If you do replace those, consider the Moogs, which have zerks.

On the tire topic, I'm running Goodyear Eagle GT's and absolutely love them. Not in the inexpensive category, though.

Has anyone replaced the rear sway bar bushings? The notes I've seen (and my own poking at them) suggests the entire rear subframe has to be dropped. Not fun.
 
oddball said:
Has anyone replaced the rear sway bar bushings? The notes I've seen (and my own poking at them) suggests the entire rear subframe has to be dropped. Not fun.
Click to expand...

The research I've conducted on jaguarforums.com suggested that it is doable without dropping the subframe, provided you have small enough hands. It seems that only 1 or 2 people on LvC replaced theirs, without any detailed info.

My problem turned out to be something else though, so I never had to tackle it. The bushings are sold by the dealer for Gen II cars, about 20 bucks a pop (don't know about 1st gen).
 
I got new Motorcraft front and rear Stabilizer Bar Links, and new rear Motorcraft Toe Links and had them all installed and an alignment today for $80 in labor (and they will install the ES sway bar bushings on the front for free tomorrow). The ride is much better, about 75% better.

Front stabilizer links that came out were in excellent shape, and were Moog's with zerts... definitely beefier... get Moog Stablizer Bar Links if you need to replace yours.

Rear stabilizer links that came out were in good shape, and were Motorcraft.

Turns out I probably didn't need front or rear stabilizer links (wish those guys would have shown me the old ones before they put the new ones on). But those are not that expensive.

At least all of that is new now.

Discount Tire called back this afternoon and said no stores nation wide have the General Exclaim UHP tires in 255/45/17... they will call General Tire directly tomorrow and see if they can find some... but they said if we don't have any then General Tire probably doesn't either... as they are discontinued. What other tire do you want?

Back to looking for tires. (I am not a Michelin or Goodyear fan... and Goodyear doesn't make a Goodyear Eagle GT in that size, as I asked today... I saw them and they look great).

Pic of old Toe Links...

0811111922.jpg
 
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