Something Liberals don't seem to realize in the healthcare debate...

shagdrum

Dedicated LVC Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
6,568
Reaction score
44
Location
KS
MONOPOLIES CAN NOT EXIST IN A FREE MARKET!
...except in very rare instances and only in the very short term...

If a monopoly arises in a certain market in an economy, the rate of return on investment will be abnormally high, leading to a huge influx of investment money into that market and the creation of competitors to benefit from those abnormally high rates of return which will serve to drive the rate of profit down to normal levels and break the monopoly.

Even in a monopoly, the laws of supply and demand still determine price. A monopoly gives that business the ability to control supply, but they do not control demand. while they can manipulate supply to increase their profit margin, demand is beyond their control. Consequently the laws of supply and demand still set the price if nothing else then through the competition of other options due to increased opportunity costs.

Here is an example based on the (false) assumption of a monopoly of in the health insurance industry. If that business with the monopoly increases the average price of premiums per month from, say $250 to $500, it would be cheaper for me to cancel my insurance and simply put that $250 I would normally pay to the insurance company every month into a savings account for medical emergencies; a Health Care Savings Account (HSA). It would keep that other $250 a month in my pocket and I would avoid a deductible in the case of a medical emergency. So that business has an interest in keeping prices relatively reasonable so I don't go with the competing option of a HSA do to a lower opportunity cost; indirect competition still influences prices.

To claim that we have a monopoly in the health insurance industry today is absurd at face value. We have around 1700 providers in the country today. The claim that we have a monopoly of 1700 businesses is contradictory; and oxymoron.

You also cannot say that we have an oligopoly in this country today. An oligopoly is, "a market form in which a market or industry is dominated by a small number of sellers". 1700 providers today is hardly a "small number of sellers".

The fact is that monopolies (or oligopolies) cannot exist unless government in some way props them up (corporatism) and that is exactly what is happening. There is a federal ban on purchasing insurance across state lines. This has the effect of creating 50 separate oligopolies across the country. For instance, while there are 1700 providers across the country, in California, you can only choose from 6.

Also, there is a federal tax benefit that businesses have if they purchase coverage for their employees. This has the effect of hiding the costs of insurance and of health care in general from the general population which allows those few providers to increase their profits and go unnoticed for a very long time.

Then there are the Federal oligopolies; Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, SCHIP, the two largest by far are Medicare and Medicaid. Their arbitrary price controls (in the form of reimbursement rates that do not cover even half of the costs of the procedures at times) as well as their slow payout leads to increased costs of treatment for non medicare or medicaid patients to make up for the inadequate reimbursements. In short, Medicare and Medicaid serve as an entity that "dominates" the market; they are, by definition, an oligopoly.

You also have this article that Johnny was kind enough to point out in this thread that points out how Medical Boards have effectively Nationalized health care by getting each state to enact, "a Medical Practice Act which created a board of medical examiners with police powers to enforce their decisions"; basically, corporatism. Again.

Combine these facts with the massive amount of regulations and frivolous litigation and you can see why we have such high costs in the health care industry.

Government involvement has created and sustained oligopolies across the country through corporatism. Now, the reform being pushed through congress aims to double down on corporatism and further stifle the free market. However, if those restrictions by the government that prop up the oligopolies were removed, those oligopolies (besides Medicare and Medicaid) would disappear almost overnight. We need to end corporatism in this country, not amplify it.

Here are a couple more good articles from the same website as Johnny's article. ;)
 
Government involvement has created and sustained oligopolies across the country through corporatism.
It was a lack of government involvement by the states to ensure competition by regulating mergers and acquisitions by health insurance companies that led to the present oligopolies that control our access to health care and force us to pay them 30 cents every time we pay our doctor a dollar.
 
It was a lack of government involvement by the states to ensure competition by regulating mergers and acquisitions by health insurance companies that led to the present oligopolies that control our access to health care and force us to pay them 30 cents every time we pay our doctor a dollar.

Governments do not "insure" competition. Also, your explanation doesn't explain why other, smaller competitors have not risen up to replace those that supposedly "merge" with the larger providers.

The truth is that government, at various levels effectively regulate the smaller competitors out of existence. Only the larger competitors are able to survive the increased cost of these regulations. From that article Johnny cited:
we have the dubious distinction of having the most heavily regulated healthcare system in the world. In no other country on earth are doctors and hospitals subjected to as many oversight and enforcement agencies, bureaus and commissions. Rules, regulations, and laws are duplicated, redundant, multiplied, magnified, and contradictory. Laws and regulations covering doctors and hospitals plus all the other parts of our healthcare system now account for over half of all the words, sentences, and paragraphs in our entire body of law.​

And there is this article that points out the various restrictions on the health insurance industry:
in Idaho, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Ohio, Rhode Island, and Vermont, there are regulations called "guaranteed issues." These force insurance companies to accept all comers, regardless of preexisting conditions.

Likewise, more than 30 other states have lesser (but very similar) regulations forcing companies to accept all comers. Such regulations allow individuals to buy insurance as soon as they need a given type of high-cost care. This is like letting a driver who causes a major accident purchase the insurance after the accident and expect all his car repair bills to be paid.

In an effort to protect themselves, insurance companies would prefer to then charge more to the person who waited until he became sick to buy insurance. However, some people cannot afford these higher payments, so the government has imposed price controls.

There are also "community ratings," which require insurance companies to charge the same amount to all members of a pool. Maine, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington are the most severe. These "community rating" laws effectively force insurance companies to finance people with preexisting conditions, and as a result they vastly increase the premiums for healthy people.

With community ratings in effect, an 18-year-old's premium is the same as 60-year-old's. Often, when a young and healthy person sees their premiums rise, he or she drops out of the insurance pool, which then leaves it more full of sick people, again increasing premiums for the remaining members. These community ratings contribute a great deal to the large number of uninsured, and are among the reasons why healthcare in New York and New Jersey is the most expensive in the country.

Another aspect that keeps insurance prices high is government-mandated coverage. The policies vary, but in some states, people who don't drink alcohol must purchase coverage for alcoholism, nonsmokers must purchase coverage for antismoking programs, non–drug users must purchase coverage for drug-abuse treatment, etc. Some states require consumers to purchase 50 or more types of mandated coverage. Special-interest groups are mainly behind these acts of legislation, which come from people in certain fields who want to expand the market for their services.

Government regulations also prohibit people from buying insurance from companies that are headquartered out of states that have a different set of regulations. This is an obvious barrier to entry, which decreases the supply of competing insurance companies and thus raises the price. As I noted before, each state determines the provisions that insurance companies must abide by. This means that the regulators essentially grant monopolies in each state, since insurance licenses must go through them. The barriers to entry in the health-insurance market are thus appalling.

So long as a market is highly competitive and has little or no barriers to entry, a particular firm acquiring significant market share will not always translate into greater market power. Were it easy for new health-insurance companies to enter into the market, surely we would be seeing a vast increase in them as a response to the record profits of the past few years. On the contrary, the number of health insurance companies has been on a consistent decline because of regulations and barriers to entry.
 
There's no such thing as a free market, bro. But if there was, you wouldn't like it.

Can you say "red herring"?
A free market is "An economic market in which supply and demand are not regulated or are regulated with only minor restrictions".

That has existed in the past. In fact, the first 100 years of this country were inarguably free market.

Just because we don't have a perfectly free market doesn't mean we don't have a free market.

The idea of a perfect competition (which is what you are deceptively redefining the term "free market" as) is an illusion created and used as a benchmark in neoclassical economic theory. Fortunately, my claim doesn't depend on such foolishness.

Besides, regardless of the amount of competition in an economy, the laws of supply and demand always apply.

The American people have granted the U. S. Government authority to protect the public from the failure of the market.

What a government program or action is designed to do and what it actually does are not the same thing. Government does not "insure" competition, even if they claim to do so and set up laws and regulations to do so. You don't judge a policy by it's intentions , but by it's results .
 
There is a federal ban on purchasing insurance across state lines.
Are you sure? Can you point out the federal law that you believe bans purchasing health insurance across state lines?
 
Are you sure? Can you point out the federal law that you believe bans purchasing health insurance across state lines?

There isn't a specific law that "bans" such a thing, but there is a federal law that has resulted in that outcome.

McCarran-Ferguson Act of 1945.
It is the law that declared that insurance is NOT subject to federal anti-trust laws and can be regulated at the state level.

Because of that, many of the individual states have made requirements requiring the minimum amount of guaranteed coverage that a policy must offer in that state.
 
There isn't a specific law that "bans" such a thing, but there is a federal law that has resulted in that outcome.

McCarran-Ferguson Act of 1945.
It is the law that declared that insurance is NOT subject to federal anti-trust laws and can be regulated at the state level.

Because of that, many of the individual states have made requirements requiring the minimum amount of guaranteed coverage that a policy must offer in that state.

In other words, Jagger-bot is looking to deceive and misdirect. ;)
 
There isn't a specific law that "bans" such a thing
I see.

but there is a federal law that has resulted in that outcome.
I blame the states for not preventing health insurance market concentration.

...many of the individual states have made requirements requiring the minimum amount of guaranteed coverage that a policy must offer in that state.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
 
I blame the states for not preventing health insurance market concentration.

They did much more then that. They insured market concentration through heavy regulation that served as a barrier to entry so that when smaller providers went out of business or merged with the larger providers, no new business would be able to take their place.
 
They insured market concentration through heavy regulation that served as a barrier to entry so that when smaller providers went out of business or merged with the larger providers, no new business would be able to take their place.
I see. What was the "heavy regulation" in Texas that you believe served as a barrier to entry?
 
I see. What was the "heavy regulation" in Texas that you believe served as a barrier to entry?

"Moving the goalpost, also known as raising the bar, is an informal logically fallacious argument in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded."

Nice try. Still trying to deceptively dismiss the argument instead of substantially confronting it. The regulations in one state alone do not prove or disprove my claim. But it does serve to deceptively raise the burden of proof and reframe the debate on terms favorable to you.

For the idea that these oligopolies are created due to free market forces to be applicable you would have to show no legal (or governmental) barriers to entry and show legitimate barriers to entry created by purely free market forces.

This article has already demonstrated the extensive governmental barriers to entry across the various states...
in Idaho, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Ohio, Rhode Island, and Vermont, there are regulations called "guaranteed issues." These force insurance companies to accept all comers, regardless of preexisting conditions.

Likewise, more than 30 other states have lesser (but very similar) regulations forcing companies to accept all comers. Such regulations allow individuals to buy insurance as soon as they need a given type of high-cost care. This is like letting a driver who causes a major accident purchase the insurance after the accident and expect all his car repair bills to be paid.

In an effort to protect themselves, insurance companies would prefer to then charge more to the person who waited until he became sick to buy insurance. However, some people cannot afford these higher payments, so the government has imposed price controls.

There are also "community ratings," which require insurance companies to charge the same amount to all members of a pool. Maine, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington are the most severe. These "community rating" laws effectively force insurance companies to finance people with preexisting conditions, and as a result they vastly increase the premiums for healthy people.

With community ratings in effect, an 18-year-old's premium is the same as 60-year-old's. Often, when a young and healthy person sees their premiums rise, he or she drops out of the insurance pool, which then leaves it more full of sick people, again increasing premiums for the remaining members. These community ratings contribute a great deal to the large number of uninsured, and are among the reasons why healthcare in New York and New Jersey is the most expensive in the country.

Another aspect that keeps insurance prices high is government-mandated coverage. The policies vary, but in some states, people who don't drink alcohol must purchase coverage for alcoholism, nonsmokers must purchase coverage for antismoking programs, non–drug users must purchase coverage for drug-abuse treatment, etc. Some states require consumers to purchase 50 or more types of mandated coverage. Special-interest groups are mainly behind these acts of legislation, which come from people in certain fields who want to expand the market for their services.

Government regulations also prohibit people from buying insurance from companies that are headquartered out of states that have a different set of regulations. This is an obvious barrier to entry, which decreases the supply of competing insurance companies and thus raises the price. As I noted before, each state determines the provisions that insurance companies must abide by. This means that the regulators essentially grant monopolies in each state, since insurance licenses must go through them. The barriers to entry in the health-insurance market are thus appalling.

So long as a market is highly competitive and has little or no barriers to entry, a particular firm acquiring significant market share will not always translate into greater market power. Were it easy for new health-insurance companies to enter into the market, surely we would be seeing a vast increase in them as a response to the record profits of the past few years. On the contrary, the number of health insurance companies has been on a consistent decline because of regulations and barriers to entry.
 
there are regulations called "guaranteed issues." These force insurance companies to accept all comers, regardless of preexisting conditions.
I would be interested in an explanation of why you believe regulations called "guaranteed issues" served as a barrier to entry into any state. You may choose the state.
 
I would be interested in an explanation of why you believe regulations called "guaranteed issues" served as a barrier to entry into any state. You may choose the state.

And if I thought you were interested in and honest discussion I would elaborate. However, judging by your two previous attempts to misdirect and deceive, as well as your habitual refusal to engage in any discussion on this forum, I see no reason to honestly engage you.
 
There isn't a specific law that "bans" such a thing, but there is a federal law that has resulted in that outcome.

McCarran-Ferguson Act of 1945.
It is the law that declared that insurance is NOT subject to federal anti-trust laws and can be regulated at the state level.

Because of that, many of the individual states have made requirements requiring the minimum amount of guaranteed coverage that a policy must offer in that state.

So you are blaming state based law (federalism)? Federalism is 'bad' in this case? What would happen if you pulled the regulation to federal level instead of state level? You seem to be indicating that the Feds made a mistake not making health insurance subject to anti trust laws.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So you are blaming state based law (federalism)? Federalism is 'bad' in this case? What would happen if you pulled the regulation to federal level instead of state level? You seem to be indicating that the Feds made a mistake not making health insurance subject to anti trust laws.

Actually, I didn't state anything of the sort. I merely provided the name of the bill that has resulted in the situation we are dealing with today. I answered a question.

I need to have a better understanding of how it's been interpreted that has created this unintended consequence, before I can go into it with much greater depth. You'll have to sit tight for a bit if it's that interesting to you. I don't have an answer.

But, simply on principle, states should be able to determine their own standards. And if insurance is going to be prohibitively expensive in New York of California, then, they, the residents of those states, need to do something about it. NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Not by nationalize the entire healthcare system.

But that's not an option we're being presented right now. My embrace of federalism doesn't seem to be shared by the ruling class, or radicals like yourself..

As mentioned,I personally don't yet fully understand how this bill has been interpreted. In another thread here, there's talk of Pelosi "joining the attack to end anti-trust exemption." I need to read more about it.
 
Actually, I didn't state anything of the sort. I merely provided the name of the bill that has resulted in the situation we are dealing with today. I answered a question.

I need to have a better understanding of how it's been interpreted that has created this unintended consequence, before I can go into it with much greater depth. You'll have to sit tight for a bit if it's that interesting to you. I don't have an answer.

But, simply on principle, states should be able to determine their own standards. And if insurance is going to be prohibitively expensive in New York of California, then, they, the residents of those states, need to do something about it. NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Not by nationalize the entire healthcare system.

But that's not an option we're being presented right now. My embrace of federalism doesn't seem to be shared by the ruling class, or radicals like yourself..

As mentioned,I personally don't yet fully understand how this bill has been interpreted. In another thread here, there's talk of Pelosi "joining the attack to end anti-trust exemption." I need to read more about it.

Ah, quickly label me 'Radical' - why Cal? There isn't any need to start assigning labels this early in the game - I know you enjoy it, and you use it to blanket-ly discredit someone, is that why? Quickly discredit, so, just in case this looks like a good example for interstate commerce law to be in effect, i.e. the 'feds,' you can use the 'radical' label to go after me, instead of looking at the issue.

heck, you even said you need to look at the issue, and still you have to throw in the label...:p
 
And if I thought you were interested in and honest discussion I would elaborate. However, judging by your two previous attempts to misdirect and deceive, as well as your habitual refusal to engage in any discussion on this forum, I see no reason to honestly engage you.

I'll take that to mean you're unable or unwilling to explain why state regulations called "guaranteed issues" served as a barrier to entry.

The best solution to be problem would be to shift the authority to regulate health insurance from the states to the federal government, where it belongs. Then, bust up the cartel and set up a public insurance option.
 
Ah, quickly label me 'Radical' -
No, I didn't do that quickly.
I've been talking to you for many months now.:p

heck, you even said you need to look at the issue ...

I do, because it's infinitely more difficult to research (without spin) and the explain (without spin) than you'd than you'd think.

If anyone understands the "how" - without the spin- please explain it or bounce the idea around in here. Because that bill and the wage controls put in place in the 40s seem to be start of our health care problems today.
 
I'll take that to mean you're unable or unwilling to explain why state regulations called "guaranteed issues" served as a barrier to entry.

No surprise there. The same type of "rational" and "honest" interpretation of the facts as those Media Matters articles you keep spamming...
 
Thread hijacking Nazi would be more appropriate... ;)

Why yes it would... name calling seems to be quite the enjoyable pass time here... maybe I should partake sometime :p

So, Shag - how do you think the problem of the states each setting their own requirements, therefore, effectively creating mini monopolies within their individual states, should be looked at?
 
So, Shag - how do you think the problem of the states each setting their own requirements, therefore, effectively creating mini monopolies within their individual states, should be looked at?

I thought I already told you, I would love for you to discuss stuff honestly, consistently, and not constantly misrepresent and spin. But since that is not an option, my only interest is in making sure your distortions are shown for what they are.

As such, I am not going to engage you in any type of discussion/debate. I have given you the benefit of the doubt more times then you will know, and the most you have done is give lip service to being honest and simply retrench; more subtly misrepresenting and spinning. I am treating you as the hostile and dishonest propagandist you have shown yourself to be.

For anything to change, you are going to have demonstrate a change and show a pattern of NOT misrepresenting and honestly engaging others in an exchange of ideas. Simply giving lip service to that doesn't cut it.
Have you shown a pattern of NOT misrepresenting, misdirected, etc. etc.?

Your whole claim about "federalism" only misdirects and confuses the issue here. It is irrelevant to my point about monopolies. You already demonstrated in this thread that you are NOT discussing things honestly and in good faith. The ball is still in your court...
 
So, Shag - how do you think the problem of the states each setting their own requirements, therefore, effectively creating mini monopolies within their individual states, should be looked at?

Why don't we look at the law first, understand or clarify why it was passed, what it does, how it's withstood judicial scrutiny, and the unintended consequences before asking questions like that.

The comment I made McCarran-Ferguson earlier was incomplete or possibly wrong. I don't think the issue is simply the mandatory requirements differing from the states.

Can you or anyone explain how the McCarran-Ferguson Act of 1945 is being applied right now and what it's unintended consequences have been before getting into the politics of it?
 

Members online

No members online now.
Back
Top