Something Liberals don't seem to realize in the healthcare debate...

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Now you are working to falsely stereotype me. Again.

FYI: the SCOTUS does not define monopoly. And in none of the cases you mentioned was the corporation in question charged with "being a monopoly". Maybe you should familiarize yourself with the logic behind what they were actually charged with and the logic behind the anti-trust laws. An "intent to monopolize" is not the same thing as a monopoly. A distinction you conveniently ignore.

Here is a real good article on monopolies and anti-trust policy and here is what is has to way on two of the cases you mentioned:
One of the most famous (and misunderstood) antitrust cases in history is US v. Standard Oil of New Jersey (1911).

The popular explanation of this case is that Standard Oil monopolized the oil industry, destroyed rivals through the use of predatory price-cutting, raised prices to consumers, and was punished by the Supreme Court for these proven transgressions. Nice story but totally false.

First, Standard never even monopolized petroleum refining, let alone the entire oil industry (production, transportation, refining, distribution) which would have been an impossibility. Even in domestic refining, Standard's share of the market declined for decades prior to the antitrust case (64% in 1907) and there were at least 137 competitors (firms like Shell, Gulf, Texaco) in oil refining in 1911.

Second, although predatory practices were alleged by the government at trial, Standard offered rebuttal on all counts. Neither the trial court nor the Supreme Court ever made any specific finding of guilt on the conflicting charges of predatory practices.

Third, petroleum market outputs increased and prices declined for decades during the alleged period of "monopolization" by Standard Oil. For example, prices for kerosene (the industry's major product) were 30 cents a gallon in 1869 and fell to about 6 cents a gallon at the time of the antitrust trial.

Finally, the Supreme Court broke up the Standard Oil holding company not because of any demonstrable harm to consumers (there was none) but because it discerned some vague "intent" to monopolize through Standard's many mergers, an "intent" that just as clearly never succeeded in producing any monopoly. Yet generations of economic and legal commentators have been misled about monopoly and the alleged efficacy of antitrust policy because of the "facts everybody knows" concerning the Standard Oil antitrust case.

The antitrust case against the American Tobacco Company (US v. American Tobacco, 1911) is similar in many respects to Standard Oil. American Tobacco put together a large diversified tobacco company through merger with smaller specialty companies. Yet they were never able to monopolize the tobacco industry as the government alleged, nor were they able to raise prices of tobacco products. Outputs increased and prices fell for decades prior to the antitrust suit. Many thousands of cigarette, smoking tobacco, snuff, and cigar companies competed against the American companies and ease of entry and availability of raw materials (leaf tobacco obtained at auction) made vigorous competition inevitable. The American Tobacco holding company was broken up by the Supreme Court because of some vague intent to monopolize (again, as evidenced through mergers) but, like Standard Oil, there was a total absence of demonstrable (economic) injury to consumers of tobacco products.​
 
Here is a real good article on monopolies and anti-trust policy and here is what is has to way on two of the cases you mentioned:
One of the most famous (and misunderstood) antitrust cases in history is US v. Standard Oil of New Jersey (1911).​

And here is a truly excellent article about exactly how, why and the results of the anti trust suit against Standard Oil really happened... not through your philosophical and ivory towered van Mises...

It concluded...

The trusts presented a superficially strong case for their activities. They claimed that their consolidation actually provided a net benefit to the public by reducing costs, and thus prices, through the elimination of duplicate and inefficient facilities and through economies of scale attained from larger volumes of output. They also contended that the greater volumes of output made it possible to finance larger and more efficient production facilities and to devote more funds to research and development.

Although there was some truth to these arguments, at least initially, they failed to take into consideration the huge detrimental effects on the economy and society resulting from the long-term (four decades in the case of Standard Oil) absence of free market competition (i.e., the market mechanism). Monopolies often do reduce the prices and improve the quality of their products in their early stages when they are trying to eliminate the competition. But history has proven time and time again that they lose their incentive to do so after the competition gets exterminated; in fact, they then have a very powerful incentive to increase prices and reduce quality. Free competition, in contrast, serves to minimize prices and maximize quality over the long run, and it thus results, at least in many respects, in what economists term an efficient allocation of resources for the economy as a whole.

Another major disadvantage of monopolies is their tendency to stifle innovation. Not only do they lose much of their motivation to develop and deploy new and improved technologies as a result of the loss of competition, but monopolies also often make vigorous efforts to prevent existing or potential competitors from bringing their innovations to market because of the threat that it poses to their dominance. Although it is easy for monopolists to create the illusion that they are major innovators, technological advance in monopolistic industries is often substantially less than what would occur in a more competitive environment. Innovation is generally regarded as one of the keys (if not the key) to economic growth, and thus its suppression will likely have a deleterious effect on the economy as a whole, even though such effect might not be readily apparent to the general public.

The argument has also been made that the excessive prices and other harmful effects of monopolies are justified because of the great charitable activities of monopolists-turned-philanthropists such as Rockefeller. However, there is scant evidence to support this. Although the scale of Rockefeller's charitable activities was certainly impressive, it was likely small in comparison to the total costs imposed on the economy and society from the anti-competitive business practices of Standard Oil. These costs were not all obvious because they were widely scattered, often hidden and difficult to quantify, in sharp contrast to the highly conspicuous and well publicized philanthropic activities.

Exactly what Johnny has been talking about in his case that insurance companies are in fact REASONABLE monopolies (once again shag, I encourage you to brush up on things like reasonable monopolies, reasonable doubt, etc., the legal field is just chock full of the word 'reasonable', you might want to embrace it yourself).

I am willing to give the insurance companies a chance to show us what they can do - remove the barriers that won't allow them to sell across state lines, let them truly compete. I think they can. Just like when AT&T was dismantled, eventually the communication industry blossomed and flourished. I think the insurance companies, if allowed to compete, fairly and reasonably, will give us new options and a better product than the government would. But, they need to be regulated on a federal level, and not on a state level.​
 
You really don't understand my claim at all, do you...

Oh I understand your claim quite perfectly. Unfortunately for you, it's based in a fantasy, text-book-pure universe of absolutes where everything is black and white, no shades of grey in between. You completely ignore the possibility that those shades of grey exist and cling to your purist "definitions" in order to build what is in reality a patently false case that the health insurance industry has no control whatsoever over setting premium pricing and are at the mercy of pure supply/demand "free market" forces and therefore profit motive (i.e.: "greed") cannot have any influence in the establishement of those premium rates. I have some great land in central Florida you'd certainly be interested in for building yourself a new ivory tower too.

Keep on posting, this is great entertainment to watch you squirm and obfuscate facts with fantasy. :bowrofl: :facesjump
 
Oh I understand your claim quite perfectly. Unfortunately for you, it's based in a fantasy, text-book-pure universe of absolutes where everything is black and white, no shades of grey in between. You completely ignore the possibility that those shades of grey exist and cling to your purist "definitions" in order to build what is in reality a patently false case that the health insurance industry has no control whatsoever over setting premium pricing and are at the mercy of pure supply/demand "free market" forces and therefore profit motive (i.e.: "greed") cannot have any influence in the establishement of those premium rates. I have some great land in central Florida you'd certainly be interested in for building yourself a new ivory tower too.

So the laws of supply and demand are now a "fantasy" that you can conveniently ignore? :rolleyes:

You really love beating up that Marxist straw man (greed) don't you...

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"
-Abraham Lincoln
 
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Here is probably the most problematic, unrealistic distortions which the "analysis" you provide hinges on;
"Temporarily undercutting the prices of competitors until they either went out of business or sold out to Standard Oil."​
There is no proof that the "cuts" were at all "temporary". It is simply speculation that is assumed as fact. The truth is that Standard Oil was simply the most efficient producer at the time.

If they were "undercutting" competitors and driving them out of business in some nefarious scheme to drive out all competition and create a monopoly, then it sure wasn't working because Standard Oil had been losing market share for decades before the suit. This was because new competitors were copying Standard Oil's methods and efficiently meeting customer's needs. Which is exactly what I said in the first post.

Those type of foolish assumptions based in speculation, distortions, half-truths etc. are part and parcel of the "analysis" that you use to legitimize your disinformation.

It is rather telling that when you and Johnny cannot discuss economic theory or hold views that are contrary to economic reality (and reality in general) you have to ridicule economics to legitimize your dismissal of it. That makes it all the more funny that the "analysis" you offer to legitimize your rejection of my points is based in one of those type of "removed from reality/ivory tower" type unrealistic economic theories (as are the anti-trust laws). You seem to be oblivious to that.
 
Here is probably the most problematic, unrealistic distortions which the "analysis" you provide hinges on;
"Temporarily undercutting the prices of competitors until they either went out of business or sold out to Standard Oil."​
There is no proof that the "cuts" were at all "temporary". It is simply speculation that is assumed as fact. The truth is that Standard Oil was simply the most efficient producer at the time.

If they were "undercutting" competitors and driving them out of business in some nefarious scheme to drive out all competition and create a monopoly, then it sure wasn't working because Standard Oil had been losing market share for decades before the suit. This was because new competitors were copying Standard Oil's methods and efficiently meeting customer's needs. Which is exactly what I said in the first post.

Shag, the competitors weren't 'competitors' but shell companies within the Standard Oil Trust... Or set up to be 'storefronts' to Rockefeller's company.

in 1878 Standard Oil had 90% of all the refinery business in the US - along with most of the marketing facilities as well. In 1881 people started to complain about the trusts and finally in 1890 the Sherman Act was passed. During this time Standard Oil saw the writing on the wall and started to lower prices in hopes to avoid the government breaking up their trust. If you control all the refineries, you get to set prices - artificially high or low, as you see fit. In this case-to appear to be a 'good guy' Standard Oil reduced the price of its product in hopes to avoid the Sherman act - it didn't work...

In fact, false price manipulation is one of the items that really got them - the government doesn't go after 'monopolies' as such - under the Sherman Act it goes after the practices of monopolies, such as price fixing. That way it can go after trusts or loosely attached companies that are in league to crush competition, it doesn't have to be a single entity (although it certainly can do that as well). It can look for collusion between companies and stop that as well. Or it can go after unions... Labor was one of the first things that the Sherman act was used against.

It is rather telling that when you and Johnny cannot discuss economic theory or hold views that are contrary to economic reality (and reality in general) you have to ridicule economics to legitimize your dismissal of it. That makes it all the more funny that the "analysis" you offer to legitimize your rejection of my points is based in one of those type of "removed from reality/ivory tower" type unrealistic economic theories (as are the anti-trust laws). You seem to be oblivious to that.

Shag - you appear to be unable to grasp 'reason' in any shape or form. The supreme court used 'rule of reason' to determine if indeed the huge trusts were acting against the Sherman act. Is it reasonable to assume that the company (which can be a huge trust) is acting in such a manner that it is destroying the competition, or not allowing true competition to ensue.

Is it reasonable to assume that the monopoly is interfering with the free market? Certainly in the case of Standard Oil and its huge trust it was.
 
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Again, you are ascribing some ulterior motives to Standard Oil then justifying it through weak, cherry picked circumstantial evidence, distortions and speculation.

There is no proof of other businesses being "shell companies" for Standard Oil. That is simply speculation based in a distrust of business due to that famous straw man used by Marxists; greed.

You note that Standard Oil had a market share at around 90% at it's peak, but by the time Standard Oil was broken up, it was at 60%. I have pointed out that drop in market share already in this thread and you simply ignore inconvenient fact to perpetuate your distortions.

The whole idea of "false price manipulation" is also based purely in speculation and reality-ignoring theory (something you like to falsely stereotype me as being too caught up in). It has yet to be shown to happen in the real world (though the government loves to accuse businesses of doing it). The fact is that there is no "false price manipulation" but simply a business being more efficient.

"Predatory pricing" or "false price manipulation" as you want to call it is a joke of an idea. It only makes any economic sense if do not critically examine the concept. This article provides a rather good refutation of this distortive speculation:
Predatory price cutting is, in theory, the practice of underselling rivals for the purpose of driving them out of business and then raising prices to exploit a market devoid of competition. The typical history text reports that John D. Rockefeller's Standard Oil Company used it often and successfully. The charge, in McGee's words, maintains that "Standard struck down its competitors, in one market at a time, until it enjoyed a monopoly position everywhere. Similarly, it preserved its monopoly by cutting prices selectively wherever competitors dared enter." It was an allegation that McGee himself believed to be true, until he did the homework that others never got around to doing. By painstakingly examining the facts and employing piercing economic logic, McGee stripped the charge of any historical basis or intellectual substance, concluding that it was "logically deficient" and possessing "little or no evidence to support it...

... McGee's analysis was reinforced by historian Gabriel Kolko's 1963 book, The Triumph of Conservatism. Kolko was an avowed socialist but nonetheless an historian who could look objectively at the facts. "Standard treated the consumer with deference," he wrote. "Crude and refined oil prices for consumers declined during the period Standard exercised greatest control of the industry." There was no upward spike in prices to take advantage of the absence of competitors because competitors were always present, and they substantially undercut Standard's share of the market long before the company's dissolution by the Supreme Court in an ill-advised 1911 ruling.

Predatory price cutting has always been one of those nostrums that sounds plausible in theory but collapses in reality. Some of the reasons why Rockefeller would have been foolish to employ it as a tactic bear repeating:

The large predator firm stands to lose the most. "To lure customers away from somebody, he (the predator) must be prepared to serve them himself," wrote McGee. "The monopolizer thus finds himself in the position of selling more, and therefore losing more, than his competitors." That untenable situation is further aggravated by the fact that at lower prices, consumers stockpile the product, putting off the day when the predator can "cash in" by raising his prices...

Consumers will increase their purchases at the "bargain prices." This factor causes the would-be predator to step up production even beyond the levels needed to keep his own customers and attract the normal amount of business done by his supposed prey. It also puts off the day when he can hope to "cash in" because as prices later rise, consumers will draw upon their stockpiles.

Competitors reappear when prices rise. A firm that embarks upon predatory price cutting never knows how long it might have to incur losses before its rivals vacate the market. But one thing is for certain: the higher prices the predator supposedly will charge when he thinks he's won the war will attract many of those rivals, and many new ones as well, back into the market.

Professor McGee concluded:
Judging from the record, Standard Oil did not use predatory price discrimination to drive out competing refiners, nor did its pricing practice have that effect. Whereas there may be a very few cases in which retail kerosene peddlers or dealers went out of business after or during price cutting, there is no real proof that Standard's pricing policies were responsible. I am convinced that Standard did not systematically, if ever, use local price cutting in retailing, or anywhere else, to reduce competition. To do so would have been foolish; and whatever else has been said about them, the old Standard organization was seldom criticized for making less money when it could readily have made more.
Yet the government uses the specious reasoning of "predatory pricing" as the justification for their anti-trust laws. Never mind that the businesses they attack are actually meeting customer's needs more efficiently then any competitor's.
 

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