My 1984 Mark VII LSC starter motor is continually running. I went out the other day and fired my car up and could not get the starter to disengage when it is in run position, I replaced the starter motor, starter solenoid and the ignition switch. The battery is brand new Autolite and the condition is the same. Have checked and verified that all the fusible links at the starter solenoid are good, and a visual inspection w/moving all of the wiring harness both under the hood and dash have no effect on it. One other item, my overhead cluster which has the lamp out warning lights, compass, outside temperature and garage door opener, lamp outs (3) are lit at all times and the headlamps, tailights and brake lamps are all working correctly. this began two days before the starter always running problem began and is present now. Could this lampout condition have then caused the starter issue. my car has been stuck at the Union 76 station for 6 days now because I don't want to ruin a second starter by trying to drive it home. Thanks for any help.
starter saying engaged in start/run also intermitent engagement
- Thread starter gorm4660
- Start date
OldSchool1
Dedicated LVC Member
Constant Cranking
Our 1984 starters are normally disengaged and denergized until 12 volts goes to the small middle post of the starter solenoid. Sending 12 volts to this post closes the starter solenoid, allowing 12 volts and a bajilion amps to go (almost) directly to the starter.
Either you have a bad or misinstalled ignition switch with the downward column pin not properly seated into the black ignition switch slot,
or the starter solenoid is permamnently closed (with everything removed, always reading continuity between the two large posts) or the starter solenoid connections are incorrect (the starter cable MUST be on a large post BY ITSELF).
Test all four possibilities and let us know what you found.
Our 1984 starters are normally disengaged and denergized until 12 volts goes to the small middle post of the starter solenoid. Sending 12 volts to this post closes the starter solenoid, allowing 12 volts and a bajilion amps to go (almost) directly to the starter.
Either you have a bad or misinstalled ignition switch with the downward column pin not properly seated into the black ignition switch slot,
or the starter solenoid is permamnently closed (with everything removed, always reading continuity between the two large posts) or the starter solenoid connections are incorrect (the starter cable MUST be on a large post BY ITSELF).
Test all four possibilities and let us know what you found.
I just fired up my '88 LSC and those "lamp out" indicators are supposed to be OFF in the RUN position and are ON while the starter motor is cranking [ignition switch in START position].
So, if those lamp-out lights are always ON regardless of ignition sw position, whatever connection they have to the ignition switch has a problem.
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so, it's most likely electrical .. a grounded or shorted wire or a faulty switch somewhere. I can't imagine a mechanical fault that would keep the starter engaged although i'm sure such a thing could exist.
My question is what were you doing to the car just prior to the starter problem. Things like this don't usually happen suddenly and for no reason. Were you working on the interior or the brakes or anything at all?
Those ignition switches are a really common problem with 84-89 Mark VIIs. They just disintegrate over time. IIRC they were recalled due to fires.
I replaced mine as a maintenance item just because they're so cheap. If you have security torx bits then it's simple to replace.
I replaced mine as a maintenance item just because they're so cheap. If you have security torx bits then it's simple to replace.
OldSchool1
Dedicated LVC Member
Are You A Bad Switch Or A Good Switch?
Recalled. Yup.
I've written dozens of pages of stuff on this but, I really think that a picture is work a thousand words. Check out this ignition switch from my 1988 ... with only 24,000 miles on it .
This is how they're SUPPOSED to look.
Oh, and it's in my signature to.
Recalled. Yup.
I've written dozens of pages of stuff on this but, I really think that a picture is work a thousand words. Check out this ignition switch from my 1988 ... with only 24,000 miles on it .
This is how they're SUPPOSED to look.
Oh, and it's in my signature to.
Thanks fore all the replies you guys. I and now opening up the harness to check for shorts or burnt wiring, because even when I am just using the ignition switch while it is not mounted on the column (using a thin phillips to move the switch) it is still cranking the starter when in run intermittently. and the Warning lamp outage overhead is still continuosly on.
OldSchool1-Thanks greatly for the pictures and your replace starter switch link they have been extremely helpful
OldSchool1-Thanks greatly for the pictures and your replace starter switch link they have been extremely helpful
OldSchool1
Dedicated LVC Member
One Of Two Things
Dude. You're welcome but, thank us when your car starts and stops properly.
"... or the starter solenoid is permamnently closed (with everything removed, always reading continuity between the two large posts) or the starter solenoid connections are incorrect (the starter cable MUST be on a large post BY ITSELF)."
Our 84's are really easy.
1) Disconnect the battery.
2) Remove ALL of the connections from the starter solenoid.
3) Test for continuity between the two LARGE posts of the starter solenoid. If continuity exists, then replace the starter solenoid.
4) Reconnect the battery cable and accessory connections to ONE large post of the starter solenoid. Do not connect the small red right angle pilot connector to the starter solenoid.
5) Reconnect the starter cable to the SECOND large post.
6) Reconnect the battery. The starter should do nothing. If the car tries to crank then the solenoid is either fried shut or your starter is wired directly to the battery. If nothing happens then
7) Reconnect the small red right angle pilot connector to the starter solenoid. The starter should do nothing. If the car tries to crank then the starter solenoid is receiving 12 volts from the pilot wire. The pilot wire should only be hot when the ignition switch is in the run position.
Do step one through seven and tell us your results.
Dude. You're welcome but, thank us when your car starts and stops properly.
"... or the starter solenoid is permamnently closed (with everything removed, always reading continuity between the two large posts) or the starter solenoid connections are incorrect (the starter cable MUST be on a large post BY ITSELF)."
Our 84's are really easy.
1) Disconnect the battery.
2) Remove ALL of the connections from the starter solenoid.
3) Test for continuity between the two LARGE posts of the starter solenoid. If continuity exists, then replace the starter solenoid.
4) Reconnect the battery cable and accessory connections to ONE large post of the starter solenoid. Do not connect the small red right angle pilot connector to the starter solenoid.
5) Reconnect the starter cable to the SECOND large post.
6) Reconnect the battery. The starter should do nothing. If the car tries to crank then the solenoid is either fried shut or your starter is wired directly to the battery. If nothing happens then
7) Reconnect the small red right angle pilot connector to the starter solenoid. The starter should do nothing. If the car tries to crank then the starter solenoid is receiving 12 volts from the pilot wire. The pilot wire should only be hot when the ignition switch is in the run position.
Do step one through seven and tell us your results.
Thanks again for all the replies. I have done the sequence of tests listed above, and when I shake the wiring harness with the red/blue pilot wire attached (ign. switch in run position)it goes hot off and on. So here we go with the dash board removal and either replace the wiring harness or strip and track down the short. Get back in a couple more days and let you know how it went
OldSchool1
Dedicated LVC Member
Test, replace, repeat.
A short to ground would not make the pilot go hot to 12 volts.
The other end of that red-with-blue-tracer (red/blue) wire is connected to the ignition switch. To test if this wire is indeed shorted to another power source, disconnect it from the starter relay. Disconnect the ignition switch. THE RED/BLUE WIRE IS NOW DISCONNECTED ON BOTH ENDS. Locate the red/blue wire in the black plastic ignition switch connector.
Test this wire for power. The only possible way that this wire could have power at this point would be if the shielding is melted/worn/cut and making a good connection to another melted/worn/cut wire with a constant 12 volts. If this wire has 12 volts, then, and only then, would I hunt for a short or consider abandoning the wire and runnig a new wire. If there is not 12 volts on this wire (after another wiggle test) then you have a bad ignition switch.
Hell. If the car were here in Philadelphia, I'd replace the switch for you.
Dude.
A short to ground would not make the pilot go hot to 12 volts.
The other end of that red-with-blue-tracer (red/blue) wire is connected to the ignition switch. To test if this wire is indeed shorted to another power source, disconnect it from the starter relay. Disconnect the ignition switch. THE RED/BLUE WIRE IS NOW DISCONNECTED ON BOTH ENDS. Locate the red/blue wire in the black plastic ignition switch connector.
Test this wire for power. The only possible way that this wire could have power at this point would be if the shielding is melted/worn/cut and making a good connection to another melted/worn/cut wire with a constant 12 volts. If this wire has 12 volts, then, and only then, would I hunt for a short or consider abandoning the wire and runnig a new wire. If there is not 12 volts on this wire (after another wiggle test) then you have a bad ignition switch.
Hell. If the car were here in Philadelphia, I'd replace the switch for you.
I get it. That is what I think is going on. I wrote incorrectly a short. Doing the wiggle test is producing 12 volts and I also think that two wires are crossing and creating the voltage. However I also need to replace the heater core and this may help me with both. I did replace the ignition switch just over two weeks ago now when I also replaced the Battery, Starter, and solenoid. I replaced the ignition switch mainly because of the link I kept running across in your post/threads.
Magic Al
LVC Member
Has there been remote starter installed on this car? This involves a "do it yourself" adventure into cutting & splicing into the ignition & starter circuit wires. There is usually a set of relays somewhere under the dash connected to all this mess. It's a possibility.
OldSchool1
Dedicated LVC Member
... that I completely over looked ...
Nope there is no remoter starter switch installed (all original wiring). Another thing, when my ignition switch is in run position (relay wire to starter solenoid connected) and the engine is cold and off(key on, engine off) the starter cranks intermittently. but I noticed yesterday wednesday jan 14th 2009 that it seems like it is just barely engaging the start circuit.
Kind of like an electrical current that is almost too low of an voltage/amperage to fully engage.
I hope the above is understandable, to you guys. Hard to think of a better description to give.
When I put ignition switch in the run position as I was trying to test lines, it would attempt to engage the starter in start (cranking motor over to start car), however it was popping? ticking noise. Sounds like the starter gear was popping out to engage the flywheel but was just lightly hitting the metal and falling back to its rest position. Electrical current was to low powered to fully engage in an attempt to start the car
I removed the lamp out warning module and that obviously turned out the constantly on overhead console warning lights off, and the same starter issue continues.
I have been wracking my brain poring over my copies of:
1. '1984 CAR SHOP MANUAL-BODY,CHASSIS AND ELECTRICAL" for THE Mark
VII,Continental/T-bird/Cougar/LTD.My
2. Haynes 1970-2001 Lincoln Rear-wheel drive(Markseries1970-1992)repair
manual, My copies of the
3. FoMoCo 1984 Cont.,Mark VI, VII wiring diagrams copied@local Library and
of course this site
4. "Lincoln vs Cadillac"
AHHHH....my brain is going numb. Still going at it starting this a.m. again w/ electrical. Trying to track red w/lght blue wire from ign.-trans neutral switch-T.F.I. module-in line diode?-starter motor relay. In an attempt to find melted and crossed Hot (+) lines. will check back later to see if there is any more ideas and/or I get anywhere or not.
Kind of like an electrical current that is almost too low of an voltage/amperage to fully engage.
I hope the above is understandable, to you guys. Hard to think of a better description to give.
When I put ignition switch in the run position as I was trying to test lines, it would attempt to engage the starter in start (cranking motor over to start car), however it was popping? ticking noise. Sounds like the starter gear was popping out to engage the flywheel but was just lightly hitting the metal and falling back to its rest position. Electrical current was to low powered to fully engage in an attempt to start the car
I removed the lamp out warning module and that obviously turned out the constantly on overhead console warning lights off, and the same starter issue continues.
I have been wracking my brain poring over my copies of:
1. '1984 CAR SHOP MANUAL-BODY,CHASSIS AND ELECTRICAL" for THE Mark
VII,Continental/T-bird/Cougar/LTD.My
2. Haynes 1970-2001 Lincoln Rear-wheel drive(Markseries1970-1992)repair
manual, My copies of the
3. FoMoCo 1984 Cont.,Mark VI, VII wiring diagrams copied@local Library and
of course this site
4. "Lincoln vs Cadillac"
AHHHH....my brain is going numb. Still going at it starting this a.m. again w/ electrical. Trying to track red w/lght blue wire from ign.-trans neutral switch-T.F.I. module-in line diode?-starter motor relay. In an attempt to find melted and crossed Hot (+) lines. will check back later to see if there is any more ideas and/or I get anywhere or not.
Last edited:
OldSchool1
Dedicated LVC Member
Your descriptions are fine.
Remove the small pilot wire from the center of the starter solenoid.
Turn the ignition key to run. The starter shouldn't budge. If it does, then the starter relay is bad.
Connect the pilot wire to the starter solenoid. Turn the ignition key to run. The starter shouldn't budge. If it does, then the ignition switch is bad or the red/blue is shorted.
I'll bet you the price of breakfast that your ignition switch gave up the ghost.
Found and Repaired Constant Cranking Starter
First off thank you all for the ideas and help, w/pics even.
I had only pulled out two of the in dash relays, when I started tracing the wires from ignition switch out through the fire wall into engine compartment and found the source of the problem. The Electrical connection underneath my Radiator Overflow Tank, just forward of where my Coil is mounted on the RH Fender Apron. The Following 2 links show the wiring layout at source of problem.
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40009&stc=1&d=1232221680
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40010&stc=1&d=1232221680
The Overflow Tank was leaking out a pin hole in the bottom onto the Connection labeled "A" in each picture link above, causing it to arc together, melting the Connection into a brittle lump of plastic with 8-10 wires all fused together. Spent 4-5 hours cutting the wires back and then soldering them each back up into a continuous electrical line (no more male-female plug in) and fired it up, no more problems with the starter. Put the relays and the steering column shroud back into place and all is well with my 1984 Lincoln Mk VII LSC. I am amazed that was where the problem ended up as I had become positive that it was up under the dash.
Thank you all again for your time and effort in helping me, which it did greatly.
Eric Gorman (gorm4660)
First off thank you all for the ideas and help, w/pics even.
I had only pulled out two of the in dash relays, when I started tracing the wires from ignition switch out through the fire wall into engine compartment and found the source of the problem. The Electrical connection underneath my Radiator Overflow Tank, just forward of where my Coil is mounted on the RH Fender Apron. The Following 2 links show the wiring layout at source of problem.
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40009&stc=1&d=1232221680
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40010&stc=1&d=1232221680
The Overflow Tank was leaking out a pin hole in the bottom onto the Connection labeled "A" in each picture link above, causing it to arc together, melting the Connection into a brittle lump of plastic with 8-10 wires all fused together. Spent 4-5 hours cutting the wires back and then soldering them each back up into a continuous electrical line (no more male-female plug in) and fired it up, no more problems with the starter. Put the relays and the steering column shroud back into place and all is well with my 1984 Lincoln Mk VII LSC. I am amazed that was where the problem ended up as I had become positive that it was up under the dash.
Thank you all again for your time and effort in helping me, which it did greatly.
Eric Gorman (gorm4660)
OldSchool1
Dedicated LVC Member
HOLY :q:q:q:q!
Now THAT! is what I call troubleshooting!
I have never seen this happen in an 84 or 85 and am fascinated with the series of events! The closest thing I've seen to this (literally and figuratively) is the harness connection to our alternators just 24 inches away. It's a three pin connector and after 25 years of 80 amps of current running through it, the plastic connector looked like the house of wax with a broken thermostat.
I really appreciate you sharing this with us. When Philly gets somewhere above 40 degrees and we're done kicking the Cardinals asses, I hope to inspect my 84 and 85 expansion tanks AND all of the connectors in that area.
Thanks Bro.