The Real McCain

Jeez, is that all you got!!! Why don't you address the questions I asked of you? You won't because you can't justify this man on anything. You're not voting for him because he has experience or any of the attributes of a leader. Reading through some of your other bunk, I would venture to say the only reason you're voting for this man is one, he's black, and two, you think he's going to give you something..... something you didn't earn. That is the problem with government today....handouts.

Wow you really know me. I am so glad your such a mind reader. Can you tell me some more stuff about me. I can tell you really are a mind reader and i am so proud to know that i am your subject. Is there anything else you want to tell me. Just do like you have been doing like a good little reader and read more of my bunks. But stay tuned there will be much more for you to mind read and tell me all about myself.
 
Notice what the video shows. It clearly shows men saying exactly what actions took place to hide evidence so now you get off it!!!.

Let me also add this website to the mix when it comes to your statement about POW investigations with results.

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/

If there is incontrovertible evidence of POWs then why are you relying on McCain only? Have you written to McCain about the POW issue?! Probably not. Then why are you here ranting about POWs if you can't take the time to write a simple letter to McCain or your representative. LOL!

If there are still POWs then the burden to find them and bring them home lies with the U.S. government, including Congress as a whole. And if Congress really wanted to address this issue then it would regardless of McCain.
 
If there is incontrovertible evidence of POWs then why are you relying on McCain only? Have you written to McCain about the POW issue?! Probably not. Then why are you here ranting about POWs if you can't take the time to write a simple letter to McCain or your representative. LOL!

If there are still POWs then the burden to find them and bring them home lies with the U.S. government, including Congress as a whole. And if Congress really wanted to address this issue then it would regardless of McCain.

It's a post to show just how much of a NON WAR HERO this man claims he is. If you don't like it then so be it. People look up things on Obama so i am looking up things on McSame. I post what i feel like posting and as far as writing them i really don't need to when the evidence is right here for all the American People to see. the thread is here to show just how much of a fraud he is when he says he loves his country. As far as you asking me why am i relying on McSame, well take a look isn't that him running for president!!
 
It's a post to show just how much of a NON WAR HERO this man claims he is. If you don't like it then so be it. People look up things on Obama so i am looking up things on McSame. I post what i feel like posting and as far as writing them i really don't need to when the evidence is right here for all the American People to see. the thread is here to show just how much of a fraud he is when he says he loves his country. As far as you asking me why am i relying on McSame, well take a look isn't that him running for president!!

Talkin about a fraud!

There is no documentation behind Obama.
Considering this guy wants to be president, We the People have a right to know who and what he is. We deserve to know.

1. Occidental College records -- Not released
2. Columbia College records -- Not released
3. Columbia Thesis paper -- "not available"
4. Harvard College records -- Not released
5. Selective Service Registration -- Not released
6. Medical records -- Not released
7. Illinois State Senate records -- "not available"
8. Illinois State Senate schedule -- "not available"
9. Law practice client list -- Not released
10. Certified Copy of original Birth certificate -- Not released
11. Embossed, signed paper Certification of Live Birth -- Not released
12. Harvard Law Review articles published -- None
13. University of Chicago scholarly articles -- None

What we do know of Obama is that he lied about his friendship with terrorist Bill Ayers, his church leader, who is an anti-white, anti-American, anti-Jewish hatemonger, Rev. Wright, is his spiritual mentor, continues to lie to the American people about his tax cut, claims not to be a socialist but the more we learn the more apparent it is that he is a devoted Marxist, and claims that he will be all things to all people just like the typical phony politician.

Obama is the fraud!!
 
Talkin about a fraud!

There is no documentation behind Obama.
Considering this guy wants to be president, We the People have a right to know who and what he is. We deserve to know.

1. Occidental College records -- Not released
2. Columbia College records -- Not released
3. Columbia Thesis paper -- "not available"
4. Harvard College records -- Not released
5. Selective Service Registration -- Not released
6. Medical records -- Not released
7. Illinois State Senate records -- "not available"
8. Illinois State Senate schedule -- "not available"
9. Law practice client list -- Not released
10. Certified Copy of original Birth certificate -- Not released
11. Embossed, signed paper Certification of Live Birth -- Not released
12. Harvard Law Review articles published -- None
13. University of Chicago scholarly articles -- None

What we do know of Obama is that he lied about his friendship with terrorist Bill Ayers, his church leader, who is an anti-white, anti-American, anti-Jewish hatemonger, Rev. Wright, is his spiritual mentor, continues to lie to the American people about his tax cut, claims not to be a socialist but the more we learn the more apparent it is that he is a devoted Marxist, and claims that he will be all things to all people just like the typical phony politician.

Obama is the fraud!!

Like i told someone else this thread is about McSame if you want to defraud Obama start you own thread.

The subprime lending boom, that is the epicenter of the entire market crash, started WAY before the Democrats "took over" the Senate in 2006. That bubble didn't blow-up overnight.

And what exactly is Obama covering-up re: ACORN? It's been explained and it's not hard to understand what's happening. How exactly is Ayers and Rev. Wright currently influencing or advising Obama? And as far as The Keating 5 scandal, don't you find it ironic that McCain was the only one that was cleared of wrong-doing? Another example of how his famous last name bailed him out of another mess.

Each candidate taking jabs at each other is part of an election but these smear tactics have gotten out of control. The Republicans, largely because of Karl Rove, have perfected the "art" of nasty politics just to win an election. He helped Bush and has helped McCain.

ACORN, the "close" relationship with Ayers and Rev. Wright, "distributing the wealth", "a socialist", etc...McCain and Palin spend 90% of their campaign hammering away at these topics hoping to brainwash self-righteous Republicans into not necessarily voting for them, but to simply not vote for the other guy so they win by default. They take advantage of the undecided voter that might not be up-to-speed on the the real issues and prey upon their ignorance to make them believe things that are not necessarily true. It makes me sick and I would be embarrased to consider myself a Republican these days!

Reading some of these political posts confirms this. You see people referencing these "smear" topics against Obama like it's gospel.

This is yet another reason I prefer Obama because for the most part he hasn't resorted to this type of nasty politics. This is the change that's desparately needed in Washington! A political change that will benefit everybody.
 
Talkin about a fraud!

There is no documentation behind Obama.
Considering this guy wants to be president, We the People have a right to know who and what he is. We deserve to know.

1. Occidental College records -- Not released
2. Columbia College records -- Not released
3. Columbia Thesis paper -- "not available"
4. Harvard College records -- Not released
5. Selective Service Registration -- Not released
6. Medical records -- Not released
7. Illinois State Senate records -- "not available"
8. Illinois State Senate schedule -- "not available"
9. Law practice client list -- Not released
10. Certified Copy of original Birth certificate -- Not released
11. Embossed, signed paper Certification of Live Birth -- Not released
12. Harvard Law Review articles published -- None
13. University of Chicago scholarly articles -- None

What we do know of Obama is that he lied about his friendship with terrorist Bill Ayers, his church leader, who is an anti-white, anti-American, anti-Jewish hatemonger, Rev. Wright, is his spiritual mentor, continues to lie to the American people about his tax cut, claims not to be a socialist but the more we learn the more apparent it is that he is a devoted Marxist, and claims that he will be all things to all people just like the typical phony politician.

Obama is the fraud!!

By the way there is a good chance if Obama gets elected his Secetary of Defense will be Bushs' apointed Robert Gates. In response to the Keating 5 Scandel McCain was cleared of any wrong doing just as Obama was cleared of any wrong doing in regards to the ACORN election fraud. Why is he covering it up if he didn't do anything wrong? But, I don't care how popular he is or who endoreses him, I vote for who I think is best, not the most popular.
 
Like i told someone else this thread is about McSame if you want to defraud Obama start you own thread.

The subprime lending boom, that is the epicenter of the entire market crash, started WAY before the Democrats "took over" the Senate in 2006. That bubble didn't blow-up overnight.

And what exactly is Obama covering-up re: ACORN? It's been explained and it's not hard to understand what's happening. How exactly is Ayers and Rev. Wright currently influencing or advising Obama? And as far as The Keating 5 scandal, don't you find it ironic that McCain was the only one that was cleared of wrong-doing? Another example of how his famous last name bailed him out of another mess.

Each candidate taking jabs at each other is part of an election but these smear tactics have gotten out of control. The Republicans, largely because of Karl Rove, have perfected the "art" of nasty politics just to win an election. He helped Bush and has helped McCain.

ACORN, the "close" relationship with Ayers and Rev. Wright, "distributing the wealth", "a socialist", etc...McCain and Palin spend 90% of their campaign hammering away at these topics hoping to brainwash self-righteous Republicans into not necessarily voting for them, but to simply not vote for the other guy so they win by default. They take advantage of the undecided voter that might not be up-to-speed on the the real issues and prey upon their ignorance to make them believe things that are not necessarily true. It makes me sick and I would be embarrased to consider myself a Republican these days!

Reading some of these political posts confirms this. You see people referencing these "smear" topics against Obama like it's gospel.

This is yet another reason I prefer Obama because for the most part he hasn't resorted to this type of nasty politics. This is the change that's desparately needed in Washington! A political change that will benefit everybody.


The banking and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac meltdowns are the result of 1) failure by Congress to pass much needed oversight legislation that would have prevented this crises; 2) which failure to pass legislation is due mostly to Democrats like Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and Chuck Schumer, who refused to listen to Bush administration warnings back in 2003 stating that Fannie's and Freddie's high risk lending practices were a threat to their viability and, should they fail, it would have a ripple effect throughout the economy. Needless to say, Democrats on the Banking Committee voted along party lines to gut the legislation and it eventually stalled and thus did not even get to the floor of the Senate. Moreover, in 2005, John McCain was one of a number of Republicans to introduce another Fannie and Freddie oversight bill which met the same fate as the 2003 legislation and for the same reasons; and 3) the various banking institutions along with Fannie and Freddie engaged in willfully negligent lending practices in order to hype profits so that executives could justify higher bonuses, etc. But again, by and large, Democrats deserve most of the blame for the current financial meltdown.

Both parties are at fault, but the Democrats are most culpable because they felt it was more important that Fannie and Freddie be in the business of lending to people who couldn’t afford a loan than to heed the warnings of impending disaster

Regarding ACORN, Obama openly admitted that he lied about his affiliation with this left-wing Democrat front group. Obama was part of an ACORN team that sued City Bank to force it to make high risk loans. In other words, Obama contributed to the financial crises by being one of the proponents of high risk loans to low-income families. And obviously, ACORN shares the blame as well. OBAMA worked for ACORN and obviously shares more than a tenuous or tangential affiliation with it.

Talking about smear tactics, there is nothing more disgusting than the left-wing attacks against Sara Palin and her family, particularly her daughter, Bristol. The claim that Sara’s Downs syndrome son, Trig, was not hers but her daughter’s is vicious. It’s interesting how you Libs love to cry foul when it comes to smear campaigning but then have no problem when Democrats do the same. Let’s not be hypocrites here. If your side is engaging in smear tactics then keep your complaining mouth shut until your side is fully willing to cease such tactics. Let’s be honest, that won’t happen!
 
McCain in NOT a US Citizen

McCAin was not born in Coco Solo but he was born in Colon Panama and his parents were residing there at the time. This does not make him a natural born citizen as required by Presidencial clause and 1st sentence of 14th amendment. There was a court case about 6 months ago regarding a case between a Fred Hollander v. John McCain and the RNC in U.S. District Court in New Hampshire under case 1:08-CV-00099.

The case was challenging John McCain right to run for President because he was not a natural born citizen. Fred Hollander did not win the case because the Court ruled that he did not have standing to bring the lawsuit. However, there were several rulings that came of the court decision. One was that McCain was a native born citizen of Panama and a naturalized citizen of the United States.

Another was that due to many court decision the Canal Zone was never sovereign territory of the United States. If you read the actual Hays-Banau Varilla treaty under sections two and three you will see why the ruling in the Courts was that the United States was never sovereign in the Canal Zone and that Panama City and Colon were not part of the Treaty grant which by the way is known as the treaty that Panama never signed. Part of the evidence was a certified birth certificate which Fred got from the President of the Panama Railroad showing that McCain was born at the Colon Hospital and part of the evidence is a statement of birth in Spanish and the certification which consists of 4 pages. The Conclusion of the case is on another 6 pages and all this listed under document number 20. The very important section of decision is under section 9.The documents can be secured from a government website at https://ecf.nhd.uscourts.gov.

If you do not have a pacer number you need to go to a different government website at Https://pacer/psc.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/psclogin.pl before going to first website. Open up document 20 for viewing first. Then download the two separate files. One file is the certified birth certificate from Panama and the second file is the results of the Court decision that I was speaking of. You can also secure all this information at http://johnmccain.dominates.us.

Some of the documents have been cleared up for better reading and there is a copy of McCain live birth that was listed at the Panama Canal Commission and is dated March 1980 and was also secured be the President of the Panama Railroad and is a certified copy of live birth secured by either McCain or the Navy or a legal representative for his retirement 1 Apr 1981. Both certificates show McCain born in Colon Panama. Go to both websites and secure the information. Then you know that I am speaking the total truth.
 
McCain in NOT a US Citizen

McCAin was not born in Coco Solo but he was born in Colon Panama and his parents were residing there at the time. This does not make him a natural born citizen as required by Presidencial clause and 1st sentence of 14th amendment. There was a court case about 6 months ago regarding a case between a Fred Hollander v. John McCain and the RNC in U.S. District Court in New Hampshire under case 1:08-CV-00099....

So both Obama and McCain are not citizens and therefore are not eligible to run for president. Great! ;)
 
NOPE!!! lol i guess we agree on something..

Actually McCain IS a U.S. citizen and eligible to serve as President.
When challenged on this point he very candidly made all of the information available to the public.

In contrast, for whatever reason you'd like to subscribe, Obama refuses to do this.

So, noting that, you've just told us all that you do not think Obama is eligible to be President.
 
Actually McCain IS a U.S. citizen and eligible to serve as President.
When challenged on this point he very candidly made all of the information available to the public.

In contrast, for whatever reason you'd like to subscribe, Obama refuses to do this.

So, noting that, you've just told us all that you do not think Obama is eligible to be President.

Actually i didnt say that. He agrees that Obama isn't eligible and i agree that McSame isn't eligible. Try not to read so fast next time.
 
No, I read it correctly.

So both Obama and McCain are not citizens and therefore are not eligible to run for president. Great! ;)

NOPE!!! lol i guess we agree on something..

Mac says neither are eligible. You agree.
My comprehension is fine.

You're communication skills, on the other hand, leave much to be desired.

It is ridiculous that people try to equate a child born to two U.S. citizens on a U.S. military base while his father was on active military service shouldn't be eligible for the presidency yet a someone who may have been born in a foreign country, to a foreign communist father, and then was adopted by another foreigner and moved to another foreign country should.

It's also ridiculous that the left then tries to play the same game they do here. Well, if Obama isn't eligible, the circumstances surrounding McCain are a little questionable, so let's just dismiss both of them (or call someone a hypocrite).

And if you want to better understand the issue of McCain's citizenship, here is the report written by Ted Olson and Laurence Tribe. Two guys who were on opposite sides of the Bush V Gore debate in 2000.
March 19, 2008
We have analyzed whether Senator John McCain is eligible for the U.S. Presidency, in
light of the requirement under Aricle II of the u.s. Constitution that only "natural born
Citizen(s) . . . shall be eligible to the Offce of President." U.S. Const. art. II, § 1, cl. 5. We
conclude that Senator McCain is a "natural born Citizen" by virtue of his birth in 1936 to U.S.
citizen parents who were serving their country on a U.S. miltar base in the Panama Canal
Zone. The circumstances of Senator McCain's birth satisfy the original meaning and intent of
the Natural Born Citizen Clause, as confirmed by subsequent legal precedent and historical
practice.
The Constitution does not define the meaning of "natural born Citizen." The U.S.
Supreme Court gives meaning to terms that are not expressly defined in the Constitution by
looking to the context in which those terms are used; to statutes enacted by the First Congress,
Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783, 790-91 (1983); and to the common law at the time of the
Founding. United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 655 (1898). These sources all confirm
that the phrase "natural born" includes both birth abroad to parents who were citizens, and birth
within a nation's territory and allegiance. Thus, regardless of the sovereign status of the Panama
Canal Zone at the time of Senator McCain's birth, he is a "natual born" citizen because he was
born to parents who were U.S. citizens.
Congress has recognized in successive federal statutes since the Nation's Founding that
children born abroad to U.S. citizens are themselves U.S. citizens. 8 U.S.C. § 1401(c); see also
Act of May 24, 1934, Pub. L. No. 73-250, § 1,48 Stat. 797, 797. Indeed, the statute that the First
Congress enacted on this subject not only established that such children are U.S. citizens, but
also expressly referred to them as "natual born citizens." Act of Mar. 26, 1790, ch. 3, § 1, 1
Stat. 103, 104.
Senator McCain's status as a "natual born" citizen by virtue of his birth to U.S. citizen
parents is consistent with British statutes in force when the Constitution was drafted, which
undoubtedly informed the Framers' understanding of the Natual Born Citizen Clause. Those
statutes provided, for example, that children born abroad to parents who were "natural-born
Subjects" were also "natual-born Subjects ... to all Intents, Constructions and Puroses
whatsoever." British Nationality Act, 1730,4 Geo. 2, c. 21. The Framers substituted the word
"citizen" for "subject" to reflect the shift from monarchy to democracy, but the Supreme Cour
has recognized that the two terms are otherwise identicaL. See, e.g., Hennessy v. Richardson
Drug Co., 189 U.S. 25, 34-35 (1903). Thus, the First Congress's statutory recognition that
persons born abroad to U.S. citizens were "natural born" citizens fully conformed to British
tradition, whereby citizenship conferred by statute based on the circumstances of one's birth
made one natural born.
There is a second and independent basis for concluding that Senator McCain is a "natural
born" citizen within the meaning of the Constitution. If the Panama Canal Zone was sovereign
U.S. territory at the time of Senator McCain's birth, then that fact alone would make him a
"natural born" citizen under the well-established principle that "natural born" citizenship
includes birth within the territory and allegiance of the United States. See, e.g., Wong Kim Ark,
169 U.S. at 655-66. The Fourteenth Amendment expressly enshrines this connection between
birthplace and citizenship in the text of the Constitution. U.S. Const. amend. XIV, § 1 ("All
persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are
citizens of the United States. . . .") (emphases added). Premising "natural born" citizenship on
the character of the territory in which one is born is rooted in the common-law understanding
that persons born within the British kingdom and under loyalty to the British Crown-including
most of the Framers themselves, who were born in the American colonies-were deemed
"natural born subjects." See, e.g., 1 Wiliam Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England
354 (Legal Classics Library 1983) (1765) ("Natural-born subjects are such as are born within the
dominions of the crown of England, that is, within the ligeance, or as it is generally called, the
allegiance of the king. . . .").
There is substantial legal support for the proposition that the Panama Canal Zone was
indeed sovereign u.s. territory when Senator McCain was born there in 1936. The U.S.
Supreme Cour has explained that, "(fJrom 1904 to 1979, the United States exercised sovereignty
over the Panama Canal and the surrounding 10-mile-wide Panama Canal Zone." O'Connor v.
United States, 479 U.S. 27, 28 (1986). Congress and the executive branch similarly suggested
that the Canal Zone was subject to the sovereignty of the United States. See, e.g., The
President-Government of the Canal Zone, 26 Op. Atty Gen. 113, 116 (1907) (recognizing that
the 1904 treaty between the United States and Panama "imposed upon the United States the
obligations as well as the powers of a sovereign within the (Canal Zone)"); Panama Canal Act of
1912, Pub. L. No. 62-337, § 1, 37 Stat. 560, 560 (recognizing that "the use, occupancy, or
control" of the Canal Zone had been "granted to the United States by the treaty between the
United States and the Republic of Panama"). Thus, although Senator McCain was not born
within a State, there is a significant body of legal authority indicating that he was nevertheless
born within the sovereign territory of the United States.
Historical practice confirms that birth on soil that is under the sovereignty of the United
States, but not within a State, satisfies the Natural Born Citizen Clause. For example, Vice
President Charles Curis was born in the territory of Kansas on Januar 25, 1860-one year
before Kansas became a State. Because the Twelfth Amendment requires that Vice Presidents
possess the same qualifications as Presidents, the service of Vice President Curis verifies that
the phrase "natural born Citizen" includes birth outside of any State but within U.S. territory.
Similarly, Senator Bary Goldwater was born in Arizona before its statehood, yet attained the
Republican Pary's presidential nomination in 1964. And Senator Barack Obama was born in
Hawaii on August 4, 1961-not long after its admission to the Union on August 21, 1959. We
find it inconceivable that Senator Obama would have been ineligible for the Presidency had he
been born two years earlier.
Senator McCain's candidacy for the Presidency is consistent not only with the accepted
meaning of "natural born Citizen," but also with the Framers' intentions when adopting that
language. The Natural Born Citizen Clause was added to the Constitution shortly after John Jay
sent a letter to George Washington expressing concern about "Foreigners" attaining the position
of Commander in Chief. 3 Max Farand, The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, at 61
(1911). It goes without saying that the Framers did not intend to exclude a person from the
office of the President simply because he or she was born to U.S. citizens serving in the U.S.
militar outside of the continental United States; Senator McCain is certainly not the
hypothetical "Foreigner" who John Jay and George Washington were concerned might usur the
role of Commander in Chief.
2
Therefore, based on the original meaning of the Constitution, the Framers' intentions, and
subsequent legal and historical precedent, Senator McCai's birt to parents who were U.s.
citizens, serving ona U.S.. miltar base in tlie Pana Canal hone in 1936, makes him a
"natural born Citizen" withn the meanng of the Constitution.
~Laure~nce H. T#ribe ~ Qb~
3
J
 
You're communication skills, on the other hand, leave much to be desired.

I see your a mind reader as well. Wow this site has so many mind readers that truelly think they know someone i am so amazed.
 
You're communication skills, on the other hand, leave much to be desired.

I see your a mind reader as well. Wow this site has so many mind readers that truelly think they know someone i am so amazed.

Again, you're incorrect.
Since you clearly said one thing but meant the exact opposite- then you EXPECT us to be mind readers in order to understand your incomprehensible posts.

Or...maybe I'm wrong... maybe you're actually correct, but since I can't hear the voices in your head, I can't be sure?
 
The Measure of The Man: Why John McCain doesn’t measure up ….


~The Measure of The Man~

Anyone who has had an adversarial relationship with John McCain will tell you that there are few with less self-control than the senator from Arizona. Many have questioned his ability to maintain a clear head in a time of crisis. For those of us who have seen these sparks of insanity from McCain, we know all too well that what lies beneath is something dark, ominous and certainly not presidential. John McCain makes reference to his service to our great nation by almost daily reminding us of his five and a half year captivity in the Hanoi Hilton. Yet few have been able to look beyond McCain, the POW, to examine his political record, as if it were taboo somehow to be critical of a former prisoner of war. But what about this former prisoner of war and his criticism of the very same people who fought to bring him home from the dark dank cell he likes to remind us about so much? - The POW/MIA Families of those less fortunate than McCain, those who still have yet to be returned to the soil they gave their lives for.

Since his return from Hanoi, McCain has …

~Ignored pleas of POW/MIA Family Members for his political influence in the overall POW/MIA Issue as well as with their individual cases

~Verbally abused POW/MIA Family Members in public and private

~Attempted to negatively influence those who testified before the 1992 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs

~Diminished legislation that gave oversight and protection to the families

~Dismantled protection to any future servicemen that go missing.

Yes, John McCain, the American politician, the man who many think would and should be the primary advocate and activist for the POW/MIA Issue is in fact the Issue’s primary adversary. You read correctly, the Issue’s primary adversary. John McCain has not provided one positive contribution to these same families that fought along side the first Mrs. McCain for close to six years to bring home all of those who were known to be captured by the Vietnamese. One would think that McCain would feel almost beholden to these fine American military families who united in one of their darkest hours to keep the POW/MIA Issue in the forefront of the War in Vietnam. Yet, nothing could be further from the truth.

Cruel Encounters with McCain by POW/MIA Family Members

In the beginning, when McCain’s political aspirations began to pan out at the national level, many POW/MIA families made the erroneous assumption that John McCain would be a logical ally as they still fought with the Department of Defense for answers on the fate of their loved ones. Again, nothing could be further from the truth. There are many very well known encounters between John McCain and POW/MIA family members. Here we will quickly focus on three of these encounters. The first is with the family of fellow Air Force pilot David Hrdlicka’s wife Carol and Jane (Duke) Gaylord, mother of missing civilian Charles Duke.



Col. David Hrdlicka, USAF while in captivity

A recent statement put out in January of 2008 by Mrs. Hrdlicka’s attorney reads;

According to Mrs.Carol Hrdlicka, when POW/MIA family members confronted Sen. John McCain in the halls of Congress after the conclusion of the Committee’s Report, he shoved the wheelchair of handicapped POW mother Jane Gaylord out of his way knocking it into her niece who was behind the chair attending to her aunt and she was pushed up against a wall. Subsequently Mrs. Gaylord filed a complaint for assault against the Senator but the matter was squelched by the powers that be. As Senator McCain attempted to jump on an elevator to make a quick escape from the POW/MIA family members gathered, he shouted at Mrs. Hrdlicka, “You don’t know what I’ve been through”(indicating he was a former POW and inferring Mrs. Hrdlicka had no comparable experience or appreciation of his great suffering and sacrifice). As the door to the elevator began to close around the cowering Senator who was making good his get-a-way, Mrs. Hrdlicka raised a large photo of her POW husband Col. David Hrdlicka and thrust it at the elevator doors to show the Senator that she did indeed share in the suffering of POWs and family members and shouted that she had clear proof her husband David was still alive in captivity. Unfortunately, Mrs. Hrdlicka’s cries and pleas for help from government officials bent on closing the chapter on POWs fell on deaf ears and blackened hearts!“

The 1991-92 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs



Victor J. Apodaca, Jr., USAF

Another incident and most likely the most disturbing occurred in 1992 while McCain was an outspoken member of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs. The senator from Arizona continually interrupted, argued with and ridiculed testimony given by various governmental employees involved in the POW/MIA Issue as well as family members. In fact, he brought the sister of a missing Air Force pilot to tears during one of his confrontational rants, Dolores Apodaca Alfond. Her testimony (p.379) at a hearing of the POW/MIA committee Nov. 11, 1992, was revealing. She pleaded with the committee not to shut down in two months, as scheduled, because so much of its work was unfinished. Also, she was critical of the committee, and in particular Kerry and McCain, for having “discredited the overhead satellite symbol pictures, arguing there is no way to be sure that the [distress] symbols were made by U.S. POWs.” She also criticized them for similarly discounting data from special sensors, shaped like a large spike with an electronic pod and an antenna, that were airdropped to stick in the ground along the Ho Chi Minh trail. These devices served as motion detectors, picking up passing convoys and other military movements, but they also had rescue capabilities. Specifically, someone on the ground — a downed airman or a prisoner on a labor detail — could manually enter data into the sensor pods. Alfond said the data from the sensor spikes, which was regularly gathered by Air Force jets flying overhead, had showed that a person or persons on the ground had manually entered into the sensors — as U.S. pilots had been trained to do — “no less than 20 authenticator numbers that corresponded exactly to the classified authenticator numbers of 20 U.S. POWs who were lost in Laos.”

Other than the panel’s second co-chairman, Sen. Bob Smith, R-N.H., not a single committee member attended this public hearing. But McCain, having been advised of Alfond’s testimony, suddenly rushed into the room to confront her. His face angry and his voice very loud, he accused her of making “allegations … that are patently and totally false and deceptive.” Making a fist, he shook his index finger at her and said she had insulted an emissary to Vietnam sent by President Bush. He said she had insulted other MIA families with her remarks. And then he said, through clenched teeth: “And I am sick and tired of you insulting mine and other people’s [patriotism] who happen to have different views than yours.”



One of the many faces of John McCain

Here is the link to the video, just posted on YouTube

By this time, tears were running down Alfond’s cheeks. She reached into her handbag for a handkerchief. She tried to speak: “The family members have been waiting for years — years! And now you’re shutting down.” He kept interrupting her. She tried to say, through tears, that she had issued no insults. He kept talking over her words. He said she was accusing him and others of “some conspiracy without proof, and some cover-up.” She said she was merely seeking “some answers. That is what I am asking.” He ripped into her for using the word “fiasco.” She replied: “The fiasco was the people that stepped out and said we have written the end, the final chapter to Vietnam.” “No one said that,” he shouted. “No one said what you are saying they said, Ms. Alfond.” And then, his face flaming pink, he stalked out of the room, to shouts of disfavor from members of the audience. As with most of McCain’s remarks to Alfond, the facts in his closing blast at her were incorrect. Less than three weeks earlier, on Oct. 23, 1992, in a ceremony in the White House Rose Garden, President Bush — with John McCain standing beside him — said: “Today, finally, I am convinced that we can begin writing the last chapter in the Vietnam War.”

The committee did indeed, as Alfond said they planned to do, shut down two months after the hearing. It is highly recommend that you take a few moments to follow the link provided below which will take you to the Library of Congress website and the specific record of the hearings from the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs. To give you a sampling of McCain’s treatment of witness who appeared before the Committee, click on the November, 1991 hearings and proceed to page 437 of the record where Mr. Tracy Ursry, the Minority Staff chief investigator for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee with regard to legislative inquiries on the POW/MIA Issue, is “cross-examined” by McCain. McCain’s segment begins on p. 443. After reading that portion, you will see that McCain did not sit on the Committee with an open mind but with a methodical agenda, that of giving then President Clinton the necessary cover to re-establish trade with Vietnam at the expense of the full and accurate accounting of our missing servicemen. Make no qualms about it, a few years later both McCain and Sen. John Kerry were there by design for the photo op with President Clinton when the official announcement regarding lifting the trade embargo with Vietnam was made public.



Re-establishment of Trade with Vietnam at the expense of our missing men


The Truth Bill

In 1989, 11 members of the House of Representatives introduced a measure they called “The Truth Bill.” A brief and simple document, it said: “[The] head of each department or agency which holds or receives any records and information, including live-sighting reports, which have been correlated or possibly correlated to United States personnel listed as prisoner of war or missing in action from World War II, the Korean conflict and the Vietnam conflict shall make available to the public all such records and information held or received by that department or agency. In addition, the Department of Defense shall make available to the public with its records and information a complete listing of United States personnel classified as prisoner of war, missing in action, or killed in action (body not returned) from World War II, the Korean conflict, and the Vietnam conflict.” Bitterly opposed by the Pentagon, “The Truth Bill” got nowhere. It was reintroduced in the next Congress in 1991 — and again disappeared. Then, suddenly, out of the Senate, birthed by the Arizona senator, a new piece of legislation emerged. It was called “The McCain Bill.” This measure turned “The Truth Bill ” on its head. It created a bureaucratic maze from which only a fraction of the available documents could emerge. And it became law. So restrictive were its provisions that one clause actually said the Pentagon didn’t even have to inform the public when it received intelligence that Americans were alive in captivity. First, it decreed that only three categories of information could be released, i.e., “information … that may pertain to the location, treatment, or condition of” unaccounted-for personnel from the Vietnam War. (This was later amended in 1995 and 1996 to include the Cold War and the Korean conflict.) If information is received about anything other than “location, treatment or condition,” under this statute, which was enacted in December 199l, it does not get disclosed. Second, before such information can be released to the public, permission must be granted by the primary next of kin, or PNOK. In the case of Vietnam, letters were sent by the Department of Defense to the 2,266 PNOK. More than 600 declined consent (including 243 who failed to respond, considered under the law to be a “no”).

Finally, in addition to these hurdles and limitations, the McCain act does not specifically order the declassification of the information. Further, it provides the Defense Department with other justifications for withholding documents. One such clause says that if the information “may compromise the safety of any United States personnel … who remain not accounted for but who may still be alive in captivity, then the Secretary [of Defense] may withhold that record or other information from the disclosure otherwise required by this section.” Boiled down, the preceding paragraph means that the Defense Department is not obligated to tell the public about prisoners believed alive in captivity and what efforts are being made to rescue them. It only has to notify the White House and the intelligence committees in the Senate and House. The committees are forbidden under law from releasing such information. At the same time, the McCain act is now being used to deny access to other sorts of records. For instance, part of a recent APBnews.com Freedom of Information Act request for the records of a mutiny on a merchant marine vessel in the 1970s was rejected by a Defense Department official who cited the McCain act. Similarly, requests for information about Americans missing in the Korean War and declared dead for the last 45 years have been denied by officials who reference the McCain statute.

The 1995 Missing Service Personnel Act

In the years following the 1992 –93 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, the POW/MIA Community along with family members began working with concerned legislators and crafted legislation to strength their battles with the Department of Defense as they have little if any oversight from anywhere within the government when they were deceived or even outright lied to by POW/MIA agencies. Wanting to shield future military families from the pain they had suffered for close to three decades they included language that would make the reporting of an MIA more responsive. McCain, in short ordered weakened this act if not stripped it entirely making it almost worthless.

In the 1995 act, the theater commander, after receiving the MIA report, would have 14 days to report to his Cabinet secretary in Washington. His report had to “ certify” that all necessary actions were being taken and all appropriate assets were being used “to resolve the status of the missing person.” This section was stricken from the act in 1996 by McCain and replaced with language that made the Cabinet secretary, not the theater commander, the recipient of the report from the field. All the certification requirements also were stricken. ‘Turn commanders into clerks’ “This, ” said a McCain memo, “transfers the bureaucracy involved out of the field to Washington.” He argued that the original legislation, if left intact, “ would accomplish nothing but create new jobs for lawyers and turn military commanders into clerks.”

One final blow in the law was McCain’s removal of all its enforcement teeth. The original act provided for criminal penalties for anyone, such as military bureaucrats in Washington, who destroy, cover up or withhold from families any information about a missing man. McCain erased this part of the law. He said the penalties would have a chilling effect on the Pentagon’s ability to recruit personnel for its POW/MIA office. Well, this writer would have to questions this line of thinking as we, thankfully live in a democracy where we all are innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, these criminal penalties would have to be proven before any penalties could be enforced. Just as with anyone accused or suspected with a crime, if you are innocent and have nothing to hide, then there should be no grounds for concern. Does McCain no have faith in our federal judicial system?



Cpl. Greg Harris, USMC

This last portion of McCain’s heartless manipulation of this legislation has some present day ramifications. Case in point, that of Marine Corporal Greg Harris. During a recent meeting with the case analyst, the family has reported that they were lied to and deceived by their case analyst in an attempt to cover up a report that confirmed Harris’ captivity. The report was kept from the family and reported to them in writing and again during the meeting as being hearsay information. Yet, the family had obtained the report without the knowledge of the analyst. The report clearly stated that the information was a firsthand account of Harris’ capture yet the case analyst, with no fear of repercussions, knowingly lied to the family trying to pass off the contents of the report as hearsay thus belittling its value. According to family members who were present at this meeting, when the case analyst was confronted with this contradiction between “firsthand” and “hearsay” reporting, she simply replied, “Well, it says firsthand, but it doesn’t mean firsthand”. If McCain had not purposefully taken away the prosecutorial clause in the original Missing Service Personnel Act, the Harris case analyst would have been much less likely to lie to the family knowing the ramifications. Yet, with no oversight whatsoever, case analysts and any other government official involved with the POW/MIA Issue can do and say what they like with the knowledge that John McCain has covered their six.

Conclusion

If indeed actions do speak louder than words, then the measure of the man that is John Sidney McCain is one of questionable character. Being a former POW himself, knowing the pain and agony that his own family members and first wife went through during his captivity, how can he, in good conscience, prolong and even in some cases make more excruciating that same pain his loved ones endured? Does what has been referenced here give Americans a sigh of relief or cause for grave concern with regard to a potential McCain Presidency? Do the families of the four missing American soldiers in Iraq know how John McCain weakened their position and took control of their son’s fate from those on the ground and transferred it to the political spin doctors in Washington? This is the measure of the man and he simply does not measure up.

Reference:
The War Secrets Sen. John McCain hides by Sydney Schanberg, April 25, 2000.

P.S. - Although not POW/MIA related, here is another “measure of the man” during a visit to a wounded warrior at Walter Reed. Major Z is indeed ~The Measure of The Man~

Anyone who has had an adversarial relationship with John McCain will tell you that there are few with less self-control than the senator from Arizona. Many have questioned his ability to maintain a clear head in a time of crisis. For those of us who have seen these sparks of insanity from McCain, we know all too well that what lies beneath is something dark, ominous and certainly not presidential. John McCain makes reference to his service to our great nation by almost daily reminding us of his five and a half year captivity in the Hanoi Hilton. Yet few have been able to look beyond McCain, the POW, to examine his political record, as if it were taboo somehow to be critical of a former prisoner of war. But what about this former prisoner of war and his criticism of the very same people who fought to bring him home from the dark dank cell he likes to remind us about so much? - The POW/MIA Families of those less fortunate than McCain, those who still have yet to be returned to the soil they gave their lives for.

Since his return from Hanoi, McCain has …

~Ignored pleas of POW/MIA Family Members for his political influence in the overall POW/MIA Issue as well as with their individual cases

~Verbally abused POW/MIA Family Members in public and private

~Attempted to negatively influence those who testified before the 1992 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs

~Diminished legislation that gave oversight and protection to the families

~Dismantled protection to any future servicemen that go missing.

Yes, John McCain, the American politician, the man who many think would and should be the primary advocate and activist for the POW/MIA Issue is in fact the Issue’s primary adversary. You read correctly, the Issue’s primary adversary. John McCain has not provided one positive contribution to these same families that fought along side the first Mrs. McCain for close to six years to bring home all of those who were known to be captured by the Vietnamese. One would think that McCain would feel almost beholden to these fine American military families who united in one of their darkest hours to keep the POW/MIA Issue in the forefront of the War in Vietnam. Yet, nothing could be further from the truth.

Cruel Encounters with McCain by POW/MIA Family Members

In the beginning, when McCain’s political aspirations began to pan out at the national level, many POW/MIA families made the erroneous assumption that John McCain would be a logical ally as they still fought with the Department of Defense for answers on the fate of their loved ones. Again, nothing could be further from the truth. There are many very well known encounters between John McCain and POW/MIA family members. Here we will quickly focus on three of these encounters. The first is with the family of fellow Air Force pilot David Hrdlicka’s wife Carol and Jane (Duke) Gaylord, mother of missing civilian Charles Duke.



Col. David Hrdlicka, USAF while in captivity

A recent statement put out in January of 2008 by Mrs. Hrdlicka’s attorney reads;

According to Mrs.Carol Hrdlicka, when POW/MIA family members confronted Sen. John McCain in the halls of Congress after the conclusion of the Committee’s Report, he shoved the wheelchair of handicapped POW mother Jane Gaylord out of his way knocking it into her niece who was behind the chair attending to her aunt and she was pushed up against a wall. Subsequently Mrs. Gaylord filed a complaint for assault against the Senator but the matter was squelched by the powers that be. As Senator McCain attempted to jump on an elevator to make a quick escape from the POW/MIA family members gathered, he shouted at Mrs. Hrdlicka, “You don’t know what I’ve been through”(indicating he was a former POW and inferring Mrs. Hrdlicka had no comparable experience or appreciation of his great suffering and sacrifice). As the door to the elevator began to close around the cowering Senator who was making good his get-a-way, Mrs. Hrdlicka raised a large photo of her POW husband Col. David Hrdlicka and thrust it at the elevator doors to show the Senator that she did indeed share in the suffering of POWs and family members and shouted that she had clear proof her husband David was still alive in captivity. Unfortunately, Mrs. Hrdlicka’s cries and pleas for help from government officials bent on closing the chapter on POWs fell on deaf ears and blackened hearts!“

The 1991-92 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs



Victor J. Apodaca, Jr., USAF

Another incident and most likely the most disturbing occurred in 1992 while McCain was an outspoken member of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs. The senator from Arizona continually interrupted, argued with and ridiculed testimony given by various governmental employees involved in the POW/MIA Issue as well as family members. In fact, he brought the sister of a missing Air Force pilot to tears during one of his confrontational rants, Dolores Apodaca Alfond. Her testimony (p.379) at a hearing of the POW/MIA committee Nov. 11, 1992, was revealing. She pleaded with the committee not to shut down in two months, as scheduled, because so much of its work was unfinished. Also, she was critical of the committee, and in particular Kerry and McCain, for having “discredited the overhead satellite symbol pictures, arguing there is no way to be sure that the [distress] symbols were made by U.S. POWs.” She also criticized them for similarly discounting data from special sensors, shaped like a large spike with an electronic pod and an antenna, that were airdropped to stick in the ground along the Ho Chi Minh trail. These devices served as motion detectors, picking up passing convoys and other military movements, but they also had rescue capabilities. Specifically, someone on the ground — a downed airman or a prisoner on a labor detail — could manually enter data into the sensor pods. Alfond said the data from the sensor spikes, which was regularly gathered by Air Force jets flying overhead, had showed that a person or persons on the ground had manually entered into the sensors — as U.S. pilots had been trained to do — “no less than 20 authenticator numbers that corresponded exactly to the classified authenticator numbers of 20 U.S. POWs who were lost in Laos.”

Other than the panel’s second co-chairman, Sen. Bob Smith, R-N.H., not a single committee member attended this public hearing. But McCain, having been advised of Alfond’s testimony, suddenly rushed into the room to confront her. His face angry and his voice very loud, he accused her of making “allegations … that are patently and totally false and deceptive.” Making a fist, he shook his index finger at her and said she had insulted an emissary to Vietnam sent by President Bush. He said she had insulted other MIA families with her remarks. And then he said, through clenched teeth: “And I am sick and tired of you insulting mine and other people’s [patriotism] who happen to have different views than yours.”



One of the many faces of John McCain

Here is the link to the video, just posted on YouTube

By this time, tears were running down Alfond’s cheeks. She reached into her handbag for a handkerchief. She tried to speak: “The family members have been waiting for years — years! And now you’re shutting down.” He kept interrupting her. She tried to say, through tears, that she had issued no insults. He kept talking over her words. He said she was accusing him and others of “some conspiracy without proof, and some cover-up.” She said she was merely seeking “some answers. That is what I am asking.” He ripped into her for using the word “fiasco.” She replied: “The fiasco was the people that stepped out and said we have written the end, the final chapter to Vietnam.” “No one said that,” he shouted. “No one said what you are saying they said, Ms. Alfond.” And then, his face flaming pink, he stalked out of the room, to shouts of disfavor from members of the audience. As with most of McCain’s remarks to Alfond, the facts in his closing blast at her were incorrect. Less than three weeks earlier, on Oct. 23, 1992, in a ceremony in the White House Rose Garden, President Bush — with John McCain standing beside him — said: “Today, finally, I am convinced that we can begin writing the last chapter in the Vietnam War.”

The committee did indeed, as Alfond said they planned to do, shut down two months after the hearing. It is highly recommend that you take a few moments to follow the link provided below which will take you to the Library of Congress website and the specific record of the hearings from the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs. To give you a sampling of McCain’s treatment of witness who appeared before the Committee, click on the November, 1991 hearings and proceed to page 437 of the record where Mr. Tracy Ursry, the Minority Staff chief investigator for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee with regard to legislative inquiries on the POW/MIA Issue, is “cross-examined” by McCain. McCain’s segment begins on p. 443. After reading that portion, you will see that McCain did not sit on the Committee with an open mind but with a methodical agenda, that of giving then President Clinton the necessary cover to re-establish trade with Vietnam at the expense of the full and accurate accounting of our missing servicemen. Make no qualms about it, a few years later both McCain and Sen. John Kerry were there by design for the photo op with President Clinton when the official announcement regarding lifting the trade embargo with Vietnam was made public.



Re-establishment of Trade with Vietnam at the expense of our missing men


The Truth Bill

In 1989, 11 members of the House of Representatives introduced a measure they called “The Truth Bill.” A brief and simple document, it said: “[The] head of each department or agency which holds or receives any records and information, including live-sighting reports, which have been correlated or possibly correlated to United States personnel listed as prisoner of war or missing in action from World War II, the Korean conflict and the Vietnam conflict shall make available to the public all such records and information held or received by that department or agency. In addition, the Department of Defense shall make available to the public with its records and information a complete listing of United States personnel classified as prisoner of war, missing in action, or killed in action (body not returned) from World War II, the Korean conflict, and the Vietnam conflict.” Bitterly opposed by the Pentagon, “The Truth Bill” got nowhere. It was reintroduced in the next Congress in 1991 — and again disappeared. Then, suddenly, out of the Senate, birthed by the Arizona senator, a new piece of legislation emerged. It was called “The McCain Bill.” This measure turned “The Truth Bill ” on its head. It created a bureaucratic maze from which only a fraction of the available documents could emerge. And it became law. So restrictive were its provisions that one clause actually said the Pentagon didn’t even have to inform the public when it received intelligence that Americans were alive in captivity. First, it decreed that only three categories of information could be released, i.e., “information … that may pertain to the location, treatment, or condition of” unaccounted-for personnel from the Vietnam War. (This was later amended in 1995 and 1996 to include the Cold War and the Korean conflict.) If information is received about anything other than “location, treatment or condition,” under this statute, which was enacted in December 199l, it does not get disclosed. Second, before such information can be released to the public, permission must be granted by the primary next of kin, or PNOK. In the case of Vietnam, letters were sent by the Department of Defense to the 2,266 PNOK. More than 600 declined consent (including 243 who failed to respond, considered under the law to be a “no”).

Finally, in addition to these hurdles and limitations, the McCain act does not specifically order the declassification of the information. Further, it provides the Defense Department with other justifications for withholding documents. One such clause says that if the information “may compromise the safety of any United States personnel … who remain not accounted for but who may still be alive in captivity, then the Secretary [of Defense] may withhold that record or other information from the disclosure otherwise required by this section.” Boiled down, the preceding paragraph means that the Defense Department is not obligated to tell the public about prisoners believed alive in captivity and what efforts are being made to rescue them. It only has to notify the White House and the intelligence committees in the Senate and House. The committees are forbidden under law from releasing such information. At the same time, the McCain act is now being used to deny access to other sorts of records. For instance, part of a recent APBnews.com Freedom of Information Act request for the records of a mutiny on a merchant marine vessel in the 1970s was rejected by a Defense Department official who cited the McCain act. Similarly, requests for information about Americans missing in the Korean War and declared dead for the last 45 years have been denied by officials who reference the McCain statute.

The 1995 Missing Service Personnel Act

In the years following the 1992 –93 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, the POW/MIA Community along with family members began working with concerned legislators and crafted legislation to strength their battles with the Department of Defense as they have little if any oversight from anywhere within the government when they were deceived or even outright lied to by POW/MIA agencies. Wanting to shield future military families from the pain they had suffered for close to three decades they included language that would make the reporting of an MIA more responsive. McCain, in short ordered weakened this act if not stripped it entirely making it almost worthless.

In the 1995 act, the theater commander, after receiving the MIA report, would have 14 days to report to his Cabinet secretary in Washington. His report had to “ certify” that all necessary actions were being taken and all appropriate assets were being used “to resolve the status of the missing person.” This section was stricken from the act in 1996 by McCain and replaced with language that made the Cabinet secretary, not the theater commander, the recipient of the report from the field. All the certification requirements also were stricken. ‘Turn commanders into clerks’ “This, ” said a McCain memo, “transfers the bureaucracy involved out of the field to Washington.” He argued that the original legislation, if left intact, “ would accomplish nothing but create new jobs for lawyers and turn military commanders into clerks.”

One final blow in the law was McCain’s removal of all its enforcement teeth. The original act provided for criminal penalties for anyone, such as military bureaucrats in Washington, who destroy, cover up or withhold from families any information about a missing man. McCain erased this part of the law. He said the penalties would have a chilling effect on the Pentagon’s ability to recruit personnel for its POW/MIA office. Well, this writer would have to questions this line of thinking as we, thankfully live in a democracy where we all are innocent until proven guilty. Therefore, these criminal penalties would have to be proven before any penalties could be enforced. Just as with anyone accused or suspected with a crime, if you are innocent and have nothing to hide, then there should be no grounds for concern. Does McCain no have faith in our federal judicial system?



Cpl. Greg Harris, USMC

This last portion of McCain’s heartless manipulation of this legislation has some present day ramifications. Case in point, that of Marine Corporal Greg Harris. During a recent meeting with the case analyst, the family has reported that they were lied to and deceived by their case analyst in an attempt to cover up a report that confirmed Harris’ captivity. The report was kept from the family and reported to them in writing and again during the meeting as being hearsay information. Yet, the family had obtained the report without the knowledge of the analyst. The report clearly stated that the information was a firsthand account of Harris’ capture yet the case analyst, with no fear of repercussions, knowingly lied to the family trying to pass off the contents of the report as hearsay thus belittling its value. According to family members who were present at this meeting, when the case analyst was confronted with this contradiction between “firsthand” and “hearsay” reporting, she simply replied, “Well, it says firsthand, but it doesn’t mean firsthand”. If McCain had not purposefully taken away the prosecutorial clause in the original Missing Service Personnel Act, the Harris case analyst would have been much less likely to lie to the family knowing the ramifications. Yet, with no oversight whatsoever, case analysts and any other government official involved with the POW/MIA Issue can do and say what they like with the knowledge that John McCain has covered their six.

Conclusion

If indeed actions do speak louder than words, then the measure of the man that is John Sidney McCain is one of questionable character. Being a former POW himself, knowing the pain and agony that his own family members and first wife went through during his captivity, how can he, in good conscience, prolong and even in some cases make more excruciating that same pain his loved ones endured? Does what has been referenced here give Americans a sigh of relief or cause for grave concern with regard to a potential McCain Presidency? Do the families of the four missing American soldiers in Iraq know how John McCain weakened their position and took control of their son’s fate from those on the ground and transferred it to the political spin doctors in Washington? This is the measure of the man and he simply does not measure up.

Reference:
The War Secrets Sen. John McCain hides by Sydney Schanberg, April 25, 2000.

P.S. - Although not POW/MIA related, here is another “measure of the man” during a visit to a wounded warrior at Walter Reed. Major Z is indeed a true American Hero!
 
So, what... am I supposed to get a bigger list of people who have served with him or think highly of him? I can.

Let's address this logically, are you arguing that McCain's support of the policy regarding Vietnam was bad? Are you in disagreement with it? Should all policy decisions made by the government be decided based upon the personal feelings of a very small group of distinguished men and their families? Mind you- there were no living POWs imprisoned in Vietnam at the time of this.

So, at best, you're presenting a very slanted piece of writing that says "McCain is grumpy."

Is being grumpy or having a temper something that disqualifies you from the Presidency?

Did you know that Bill Clinton had a famous temper. So did Carter. Nixon too. LBJ was damn near criminally insane. The list goes on and on.

I'm not sure what you're actual argument is. I don't think you know either, other than just posting stuff the incites an emotional (not intellectual) response to influence mood and opinion.

And to further undermine what point you were making,
here's a list of POWs who formally are supporting John McCain in the '08 election:
Friday, March 14, 2008
Former POWs Support John McCain for Commander in Chief
Vietnam War POWs' Open Letter: March is a memorable time for the Americans who were released from captivity in North Vietnam during the month back in 1973. The pathway to freedom began in February, as the war in Vietnam was concluding for America. John McCain, one of those American heroes, returned to freedom on March 15, 1973, released from Hanoi that day along with other very happy American Prisoners of War. His journey home was the continuation of a remarkable story with chapters yet to be written. Having survived life-threatening and disabling injuries, along with the brutality of the POW experience, Journey to Freedom
John had steadfastly resisted communist efforts to exploit him and his fellow POWs. John's homecoming began a new phase of his life. His courageous service and his political career are well known today, and now he is the presumptive nominee for the Republican Party to be the next President of the United States.

We are but representatives of over eighty former POWs who shared those heady days of freedom and those years of captivity and suffering with John McCain. Collectively, we are proudly doing all we can to help our dear friend, John McCain, become our next commander in chief. We are campaigning with him, helping him raise money, speaking on his behalf and, in constant conversations, promoting his candidacy among our friends and family all over the country. We are doing so because we believe in John McCain.

Our convictions about John's character were born in the crucible of adversity. We have witnessed his courage, integrity, character and intellect. We know and respect his sense of honor and his tenacity in the face of grave danger and prolonged hardship. These qualities, combined with his life experiences, make John ready for the enormous challenges facing the leader of our country. No one -- no one -- is more qualified to be president, to lead our country, to protect our nation and our children and grandchildren. We know him. We know his strengths, his love of country and his commitment to serve it. He has been severely tested, and we have witnessed him under pressure. We trust his judgment and his ability to lead our country in these difficult times. We are joined in that trust by over 130 retired Flag and General officers who are members of Senator McCain's Military Advisory Council. They know and have worked with John McCain over the past three decades dealing with major national security challenges. They know leadership and they know danger and challenges. They know experience. They know quality. And they chose John McCain for president.

We must elect a leader who is ready on day one for these difficult and dangerous times. We need a leader who will insist that we win in the struggle against radical Islam. John is committed to let our troops win! We need a leader who will take on the big problems that most politicians seek to avoid. Leaders take on the tough issues. John McCain is that sort of leader. He knows the American spirit -- he has lived it like no other candidate. He knows we can do better and that America's best days are ahead.
Sincerely,
Commander Everett Alvarez, USN (Ret.)POW for 8 1/2 years
Colonel Bud Day, USAF (Ret.) Medal of Honor POW Over 5 Years
Rear Admiral Robert Shumaker, USN (Ret.)POW for 8 years
Colonel Leo Thorsness, USAF (Ret.) Medal of Honor POW for 6 years
Commander Paul Galanti, USN (Ret.)POW for over 6 1/2 Years
Captain Mike Cronin, USN (Ret.)POW for over 6 years
Major General John Borling, USAF (Ret.)POW for over 6 1/2 years
Captain Richard Stratton, USN (Ret.)POW for over 6 years
Lt Colonel Orson Swindle, USMC (Ret.)POW for over 6 years.
 
Oh jesus there you go again. My post clearly state that he's a liar and claims to be some type of great american hero, in which he is far from it. The argument as stated is to just show that all these McSame reporters and supporters seem to think he so GREAT!!! and he is far from that title.

Respond how you want i am talking about McSame, no one else just him...
 
Oh jesus there you go again. My post clearly state that he's a liar and claims to be some type of great american hero, in which he is far from it. The argument as stated is to just show that all these McSame reporters and supporters seem to think he so GREAT!!! and he is far from that title.

It can clearly state anything you'd like, unfortunately, it doesn't support it.

I've challenged you to provide clarification and support for the position you've put forth. I'm not going to respond specifically to editing tricks in slickly produced videos, but you and I can have a back and forth on any of the issues you'd like. You made specific note of his associations with POWs. I have challenged you on this point and also provided you a list of POWs that are currently endorsing him for the Presidency.

If you're incapable of responding...just stop.
Because you're not advancing your point by posting nonsense.

No one has ever argued McCain is a saint, or that he was perfect. Most of us didn't even support him in the primary. However, he's an honest and honorable man with a proud service of history to this country.

These are distinctions Obama is lacking.
 
Oh jesus there you go again. My post clearly state that he's a liar and claims to be some type of great american hero, in which he is far from it. The argument as stated is to just show that all these McSame reporters and supporters seem to think he so GREAT!!! and he is far from that title.

Respond how you want i am talking about McSame, no one else just him...
Why do you call him McSame?
 
Why do you call him McSame?

Because that what we will get if he is elected, the same mess that the country is already in will continue. He doesn't look like Bush but he sure did say he voted 90% for all of what Bush was going after.
 
Because that what we will get if he is elected, the same mess that the country is already in will continue. He doesn't look like Bush but he sure did say he voted 90% for all of what Bush was going after.
Accepting your premise for the sake of the argument, Obama voted 99% with the Democrat party, so doesn't that make him McSame, even more so?
 
Accepting your premise for the sake of the argument, Obama voted 99% with the Democrat party, so doesn't that make him McSame, even more so?

Not really if it hasn't effected the way of living here in the U.S. in a negative way in the last 8 years.
 
No, I read it correctly.



Mac says neither are eligible. You agree.
My comprehension is fine....

My comment that both weren't eligible was in jest. I know of no reason why McCain would be ineligible to run for president. And the analysis you posted pretty much settles the question.

And if you go to factcheck.org you will see that Obama's birth certificate was analyzed and appears to be genuine.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

So maybe we can get by this issue unless someone comes up with a compelling reason why Obama is not an American citizen.
 

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