The Young Turn Against Obamacare

What, you can pull age breakdown across the questions and come up with any sort of 'real' analysis?

...You cannot go across the data and just plug in the age variable, or any other variable.

A cross tabulation (often abbreviated as cross tab) displays the joint distribution of two or more variables. They are usually presented as a contingency table in a matrix format. Whereas a frequency distribution [which is all the pdf file presents] provides the distribution of one variable, a contingency table describes the distribution of two or more variables simultaneously.

Despite your claims, you clearly have NO CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! you are LYING!

OK, show me where you can find how to get the results of before and after data regarding the people being polled and how their silly commercials made any difference whatsoever

so you are claiming that the pdf file is the full data? Again? How many times have you changed your story now? They didn't have the data, then they did now they don't again? :rolleyes:

Confront the question or stop wasting everyone's time.

For a seventh time; Why do you attempt to deceive people on this forum?
 
A cross tabulation (often abbreviated as cross tab) displays the joint distribution of two or more variables. They are usually presented as a contingency table in a matrix format. Whereas a frequency distribution [which is all the pdf file presents] provides the distribution of one variable, a contingency table describes the distribution of two or more variables simultaneously.

OK, shag - show me the frequency distribution and how you would arrive at the numbers that Morris states regarding age response to the disapproval rating on the healthcare question. You can't.

Despite your claims, you clearly have NO CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! you are LYING!

And you can't say why you are so anxious to show this article as 'fact'. It isn't, it is misleading, has flawed data behind it, and in no way can prove its supposition.

so you are claiming that the pdf file is the full data? Again? How many times have you changed your story now? They didn't have the data, then they did now they don't again? :rolleyes:

the pdf file is labeled by Zogby as the full results shag - that is what I am going by - what Zogby states on their website...

So, can you please stop wasting my time, and show how these results can show that the commercials had any impact on the people polled - you can't. You can't answer that question, you have avoided it from the very beginning because you know that if you do, you will invalidate the article. It is bunk. If you can't find an answer to that you are the one who is using deception, not me shag.

Confront the question or stop wasting everyone's time.

For a seventh time; Why do you attempt to deceive people on this forum?
No matter how many times you ask this question, everyone knows the answer shag - you are the one involved in a deception here, not me. You are trying to shore up a bad article, desperately. And it appears you will try to do it at any cost - including the cost to your credibility. Your credibility has sunk to new lows - just because you won't back off defending a flawed piece of junk.
 
OK, shag - show me the frequency distribution and how you would arrive at the numbers that Morris states regarding age response to the disapproval rating on the healthcare question. You can't.

The tables in the pdf file...those are frequency distribution tables (the tables even have the word "frequency" in them). I thought you knew what you were talking about here. Instead, you are petulantly trying to raise the burden of proof. Again.

it is no excuse for presumptuous ignorance that it is directed by insolent passion
-Edmund Burke

it is misleading, has flawed data behind it,

You have yet to logically demonstrate either of those things. However, you have gotten more bold in your hyperbolic pronouncements since I conceded the point that one question in the poll was arguably bias.

the pdf file is labeled by Zogby as the full results shag - that is what I am going by - what Zogby states on their website...

"full results" is not the same as "full data".

The pdf file is simply a frequency distribution table of each individual variable.

The data from which those frequency distribution tables are derived is where the crosstab analysis comes from that correlates age with the results of the questions.

So, can you please stop wasting my time, and show how these results can show that the commercials had any impact on the people polled - you can't. You can't answer that question, you have avoided it from the very beginning because you know that if you do, you will invalidate the article.

That is not a question you have asked from the very beginning and it is not a point I was every really contesting. It was your ignorant and misleading "interpretation" of this poll and what the various analyzes said (and didn't say) about the data they were derived from that I was contesting.

No matter how many times you ask this question, everyone knows the answer shag - you are the one involved in a deception here, not me.

You have yet to reasonably show where I am in any way "deceiving" (though you have falsely made the accusation and tried to justify it through loaded statements and misrepresentation). However, I have documented where and, specifically, how you are deceiving throughout this thread (and for over a year on this forum), yet you are avoiding the question.

For a eighth time, why do you attempt to deceive people on this forum?

Attempting to turn the question on the questioner as you are doing here is childish, petty and a rather transparent attempt to dodge the question.
 
A cross tabulation (often abbreviated as cross tab) displays the joint distribution of two or more variables. They are usually presented as a contingency table in a matrix format. Whereas a frequency distribution [which is all the pdf file presents] provides the distribution of one variable, a contingency table describes the distribution of two or more variables simultaneously.

Despite your claims, you clearly have NO CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! you are LYING!

Shag, where IS this "cross tabulation" table for this data? You have yet to show it, it's not on Zogby's site, and Morris hasn't provided it. Without it you/Morris HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS upon which to make your claims.

Furthermore, since you are claiming that Zogby has maintained the raw age-distribution-frequency-by-question data, please explain why he'd need to statistically calculate the age-distribution-frequency-by-question information? Anyone that has performed statistical analysis knows that if you are given a choice to present data calculated directly from the raw data or to extrapolate interdependancies of two variables from compiled data, that the extra calculations of the latter method compounds the margin of error and for that reason would never be a complete fool to select that second method IF THE DATA TO PERFORM THE FIRST METHOD EXISTS!

WHERE IS THE CROSS TABULATION TABLE THAT SHOWS AGE FREQUENCY DISTRIBUTION FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL QUESTION?? Without that, you FAIL.
 
No matter how many times you ask this question, everyone knows the answer shag - you are the one involved in a deception here, not me. You are trying to shore up a bad article, desperately. And it appears you will try to do it at any cost - including the cost to your credibility. Your credibility has sunk to new lows - just because you won't back off defending a flawed piece of junk.
Nice try at groupthink, but you FAIL. I know how much you deceive, I have the PMs to prove it, Foxpaws, as well as a mountain of posts where you do just that. Most people probably see right through your dissimulation.

You came here as a wolf in sheep's clothing, all nice and cutesy. But you have shown your true identity as a demagogue. The way you cherrypick is disgraceful. You're barely better than a troll in this forum.
 
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This, coming from a child that has contributed nothing but snipes and personal attacks to this thread? You are a JOKE, David. Go back to beating (off on) your bible.
Quoted for posterity.

Although I'm not surprised at the low level of humor, given your proven lack of maturity compared to your age, I am surprised at the low level of quality.

Come on, Johnny, you can do better than that. That doesn't even make sense. :bowrofl:

You know what they say - if you have to explain the joke, it isn't funny.

Such an angry person, and an internet bird dog at that. I'm laughing at you, Johnny.

I am curious, though...

Why do you have such a palpable hate for Christians? Did one offend you once or something?
 
The tables in the pdf file...those are frequency distribution tables (the tables even have the word "frequency" in them). I thought you knew what you were talking about here. Instead, you are petulantly trying to raise the burden of proof. Again.
Show me the frequency including age breakdown for the Healthcare questions - or how you would arrive at that Shag. That is what I want to know... Simple for a stats guru such as yourself - right?

You have yet to logically demonstrate either of those things. However, you have gotten more bold in your hyperbolic pronouncements since I conceded the point that one question in the poll was arguably bias.

The polling base is skewed - I went over that in post 17. They didn't ask important questions - such as 'do you watch TV', so critical data is missing, and therefore the article is misleading because they state that their commercial is the reason for the shift in numbers. The data is flawed because of the addition of a push polling type question.

The data from which those frequency distribution tables are derived is where the crosstab analysis comes from that correlates age with the results of the questions.

So, find that data shag - it isn't available to us, and since the 'results' don't confirm what the article is stating, then, either Morris is lazy, or Morris is errant, or Morris doesn't have the numbers he wanted in the data and isn't showing results as they are normally shown in a political poll.

That is not a question you have asked from the very beginning and it is not a point I was every really contesting. It was your ignorant and misleading "interpretation" of this poll and what the various analyzes said (and didn't say) about the data they were derived from that I was contesting.

From the beginning I stated that I thought this poll was skewed, and probably misleading. Since at that point I didn't know what data they had since they didn't post it in their article. You dug around and found it shag. since then I had the results they were working with I could become more clear about what was wrong with the poll. One of the glaring things wrong is that they never ask about the TV commercials at all. How can they actually state this:
we ran television advertisments (sic) and an Internet campaign aimed at young people focused in Arkansas, North Dakota and Maine. The results are incredible!
when they never even asked any questions about TV viewership?

You have yet to reasonably show where I am in any way "deceiving" (though you have falsely made the accusation and tried to justify it through loaded statements and misrepresentation). However, I have documented where and, specifically, how you are deceiving throughout this thread (and for over a year on this forum), yet you are avoiding the question.

You continue to post articles that are flawed, and in some cases, just false. And then, rather than back down when you are challenged on their validity, you dig in and try to find some way, any way, to create a sense of legitimacy about them. They aren't legitimate at all, this article is pure propaganda. Which you are promoting. Why post an article that asks for money shag?

For a eighth time, why do you attempt to deceive people on this forum?

Attempting to turn the question on the questioner as you are doing here is childish, petty and a rather transparent attempt to dodge the question.

You might want to review Goebbels...

"One should not as a rule reveal one's secrets, since one does not know if and when one may need them again. The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous."
 
You might want to review Goebbels...

"One should not as a rule reveal one's secrets, since one does not know if and when one may need them again. The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous."
Cute. So you criticize Shag of invoking the Nazis, and then you do it.
 
Nice try at groupthink, but you FAIL. I know how much you deceive, I have the PMs to prove it, as well as a mountain of posts where you do just that. Most people probably see right through your dissimulation.

You came here as a wolf in sheep's clothing, all nice and cutesy. But you have shown your true identity as a demagogue. The way you cherrypick is disgraceful. You're barely better than a troll in this forum.

So, Foss - itching to post PMs are you? They must be ancient by now - dusty are they? How quaint of you to keep them. I fear I have long ago deleted any I had from you. My PM box fills up rather quickly.

Cherrypicking, here? Really? Challenging the numbers and the validity of a poll that this article was 'based' on? Nice to know your definition Foss - I'll be sure and follow your posts to see if you ever challenge polls, and make sure that those challenges are labeled as 'cherrypicking'.

Do I pick and chose my battles - yes. That is not only smart, but a time saver as well. I am not going to battle Global Warming. I don't really understand the science or lack of science behind it. I feel that I am not a good source for information, and wouldn't be able to add to the discussion. My viewpoints on that subject are rather simple, and wouldn't educate anyone on the subject matter.

However, I do know polling and how polling works. In this case I thought it was prudent to show people that polls can be skewed, crafted, and manipulated to say just about anything. There are good polls and bad polls, this happens to be a fairly poor poll, that is being manipulated by a biased group.

I am not afraid to let the wolf out when necessary.
 
Cute. So you criticize Shag of invoking the Nazis, and then you do it.
Shag brought up the 'big lie' first, I was just making sure he understood that he was following that philosophy to the letter... I wasn't sure if he really had read that particular Goebbels quote. It is often thought that Goebbels practiced the 'big lie' form of propoganda, when, in fact, he didn't - he saw it and labeled it as such when the British were doing it.
 
Why do you have such a palpable hate for Christians? Did one offend you once or something?

We've been over this before many times, are you suffering from alzheimers?

I don't hate Christians, I'm one myself. I just take great pleasure watching the self-rightous ones (such as yourself and others here) squirm and spin their heads in circles when their kooky beliefs are shattered in the face of facts. :eek:
 
We've been over this before many times, are you suffering from alzheimers?

I don't hate Christians, I'm one myself. I just take great pleasure watching the self-rightous ones (such as yourself and others here) squirm and spin their heads in circles when their kooky beliefs are shattered in the face of facts. :eek:
Like I said, if you have to explain the joke, it's not funny.

If you're a Christian, why do you hate them so much?
 
Show me the frequency including age breakdown for the Healthcare questions - or how you would arrive at that Shag. That is what I want to know... Simple for a stats guru such as yourself - right?

Considering the fact that "age breakdown" and the answers to individual "healthcare questions" are in fact two separate variables they, can not be combined in a frequency distribution table. They would be combined in a crosstabs analysis (which was how Morris reached his results). If you actually knew anything about polling and stats analysis, you would realize that.

The polling base is skewed

None of the info you have cited anywhere in this thread logically proves that "the polling base is skewed". It is simply red herrings, exaggeration and speculation.

I am really tired of this. There is absolutely no chance of honest discourse in any thread you engage in because you are tenaciously spamming lies and disinformation. The threads have to stop or become dominated by your spam. Really, you are more effective then any troll I have ever seen at disrupting honest discourse because you turn every thread into a contest between lies and honesty (instead of letting it be a search for wisdom and truth).

I will ask this question for a ninth time; why do you attempt to deceive people on this forum? If you don't have the decency to answer that question then we have nothing left to discuss.
 
Considering the fact that "age breakdown" and the answers to individual "healthcare questions" are in fact two separate variables they cannot be combined in a frequency distribution table. They would be combined in a crosstabs analysis (which is the only way Morris could reach his results). If you actually knew anything about polling and stats analysis, you would realize that. Instead, your question is simply further proof of your ignorance and your lie in claiming to know what you are talking about here.
You have been the one claiming you can ascertain age breakdown on the questions asked – I am just asking for it shag- and how you arrive at it. Since you are the expert on statistical analysis – show me what you have… It shouldn’t be difficult. If you can’t show me how you can arrive at those numbers, I am going to assume you can’t. You will then have to relinquish your self appointed elite status in this category.
None of the info you have cited anywhere in this thread logically proves that "the polling base is skewed". It is simply red herrings, exaggeration and speculation.
The polling base is skewed… here, once again, is the reason why…

how did the group being polled vote in the last presidential election and both ND and Ark came in very heavily McCain. Actually this poll is even more heavily skewed that way - ND - national election 53/45 poll 47/34 ARK - 59/39 poll 51/32. Way over what could be considered average, however, they don't have it in the Maine breakdown - so, someone is playing fast and lose here Shag... Oddly in both cases the number of people who voted for 'other' was way weird, in ND in the election only 2% however in the poll it is 18.5% and in Ark in the election again only 2% voted for 'other' but in the poll is is 16.5%, this poll is highly irregular just based on this result. And they don't have a 'didn't vote' option - all in all very bad polling.

I do know polling shag – and you have yet to come back with a response to my reason of why this is a skewed poll - I have had this information out here since post #17...

I am really tired of this. There is absolutely no chance of honest discourse in any thread you engage in because you are tenaciously spamming lies and disinformation. The threads have to stop or become dominated by your spam. Really, you are more effective then any troll I have ever seen at disrupting honest discourse. You turn every thread into a contest between lies and honesty (instead of letting it be a search for wisdom and truth).

I will ask this question for a ninth time; why do you attempt to deceive people on this forum? If you don't have the decency to answer that question then we have nothing left to discuss.

And I am tired as well shag - you can't even state how Morris can tie back these results to his TV commercials - which is at the very core of his article. He wants people to send more money to him so he can show these commercials in other states. Do you do as well shag - why post an extremely flawed article unless you want some sort of action to happen - were you hoping that no one would notice that there is no way for Morris to back his claim and just send money to this cause?

I also know honest discourse- you cannot back up your claims – you cannot show that the information in this article is truthful, so rather than back down, admit that the article you posted is flawed, you would rather attack me than the issue at hand. Your vituperation is becoming old.

Heck go for ten times – there’s something to be said for double digits…
 

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