Tracing device triggers backlash from gun industry

04SCTLS

Dedicated LVC Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
3,188
Reaction score
7
Location
Lockport
Tracing device triggers backlash from gun industry

http://www.sacbee.com/capitolandcalifornia/story/2427189.html

California regulators have approved far fewer semi-automatic pistols for sale in the wake of a state law that required new safety devices in 2006 and 2007.
Now, with a new bullet-stamping law scheduled to take effect in 2010, the gun industry predicts it will introduce even fewer new models in California rather than install a device necessary to trace individual casings to a statewide database.

"California will become like Cuba with cars," said Lawrence Keane, senior counsel for the National Shooting Sports Foundation, which represents the gun industry. "You will only be able to get very old models of guns."
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger signed Assembly Bill 1471 in 2007 to much fanfare from gun-control advocates and Democratic lawmakers.
Beginning Jan. 1, the law requires that new semi-automatic handguns in California include an innovative firing pin that stamps microscopic characters onto cartridge cases. It was intended to ensure that every bullet casing at a crime scene has a license number on it, traceable to a statewide gun database.

Whether that ever happens, though, depends on a few hurdles, not the least of which is how gun manufacturers respond.

The law is on hold as state officials work out regulations governing how new guns will be approved. In addition, the inventor of the microstamping technology must free up patent restrictions for the law to take effect. That's expected early in 2010.

The law then applies only to new models of semi-automatic pistols approved for sale in California, and those numbers already are falling because of the state's last effort to boost gun safety.

The Department of Justice's Bureau of Firearms is charged with approving weapons for sale in California each year. From 2002 to 2006, the bureau approved 72 new semi-automatic pistols on average each year.
In 2007, a law took full effect mandating that new center-fire semi-automatic pistols include both a mechanism that prevents firing when the magazine is removed, as well as an indicator showing when a live round is in the gun chamber. Rim-fire semi-automatics must have the magazine disconnect device.

In three years, the Bureau of Firearms has approved only nine new semi-automatic weapons, including only one in 2008.
That hasn't slowed gun purchases in the state; Californians bought 208,312 handguns in 2008, more than in any of the previous seven years, according to the Department of Justice.

But gun enthusiasts in California are frustrated that they have less access to new models sold elsewhere, said Sam Paredes, executive director of Gun Owners of California.
"What's being sold are guns that really were designed four or five years ago," he said. "Gun owners are reading all the publications, watching the TV programs with the latest designs and equipment features, and they're fairy tales to Californians."

Joshua Horwitz, executive director of the Washington, D.C.-based Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, said manufacturers should comply with new requirements rather than avoid them. He compared the new requirements with safety measures put on other products such as ladders or cars.
"This is a question of whether the industry wants to help with the tracking and safety of guns in California," Horwitz said. "We've known for a long time that these technologies are available. If they choose not to do it, it shows they are just not good corporate actors."

Even if gun makers introduce new pistols that include all of the requisite new features, those models will make up a small fraction of guns used in California.

Still, backers see AB 1471 as a first step toward making the technology an integral part of future guns sold in California and the United States. They hope California's lead will encourage other states and Congress to approve a similar requirement, forcing manufacturers to adopt microstamping in the future.

"It's going to make a major dent over time," said Assemblyman Mike Feuer, D-Los Angeles, author of AB 1471. "When the bill was introduced, opponents said it wasn't going to solve all gun crimes because existing guns won't have microstamping. That's true. But it's an important beginning in addressing how we can change gun crime and make law enforcement more effective."

The technology involves placing a unique alphanumeric code on a firing pin or other internal device that leaves an imprint on a bullet casing once fired. AB 1471 requires that guns stamp a mark in two locations.

Dozens of police chiefs, the American Academy of Pediatrics and large cities backed AB 1471. Gun owners, manufacturers and 14 sheriffs opposed it.
Manufacturers say the microstamping technology is unproven and would add hundreds of dollars in new production costs to guns, charges that Feuer and other advocates dispute.

Co-inventor Todd Lizotte, a New Hampshire engineer, said he plans to free his patents from all restrictions in early 2010. He suggested that lawyers for the gun industry are using patent restrictions as a way to block the law.
"Let me put it to you this way. Lawyers are paid to find all possible methods in which this could be encumbered," Lizotte said.

Lizotte, a self-described conservative gun owner, said he created the technology partly to give the military a way of tracking firearms. He also wanted to give law enforcement a tool to defeat criminals whose behavior maligns law-abiding gun owners.

"Ninety-nine percent of us who own firearms don't commit felonies," he said. "It's that small percentage that compromises our Second Amendment rights."
A 2007 University of California, Davis, study tested microstamping techniques and determined the technology was promising but inconsistent. The study found that firing pins wore down at different rates, with alphanumeric codes faring better than bar codes or dot codes. The study estimated that adding alphanumeric codes would cost $7 to $8 per firing pin in the first year.
Manufacturers saw the research as supportive of their position that the technology is not ready for use. Keane said a thorough federal study should occur before implementation.

Lizotte said the UCD study relied on old firing pins that were "nonoptimized" for the weapons in which they were used. He said the results were valid but that he arrived at a different conclusion. He believes that detectives can use multiple casings to get a reasonable lead even if some of the codes are not complete.
_________________________________________________________________

Well this is a step in the right direction.
Knowing whose gun a bullet came from is a great crime fighting tool.
 
Kalifornia is well on its way to becoming a failed state. Other states should take note of this and do the opposite of whatever Kalifornia does.
 
Kalifornia is well on its way to becoming a failed state. Other states should take note of this and do the opposite of whatever Kalifornia does.

That's a pretty vague non sequiter.
Obviously you have no thoughtful response to the topic at hand, instead offering a dismissive generalization.
 
DOZENS of Police Chiefs? Out of how many thousands?


The American Academy of Pediatrics??? That's like consulting Guns and Ammo on how to do open heart surgery.

It's well known in the gun business that the "few" in Kalifornia who think they knows whats best for everyone else (read: Liberals), are a joke when it comes to firearms. I especially like the engineer's statement "Ninety-nine percent of us who own firearms don't commit felonies," he said. "It's that small percentage that compromises our Second Amendment rights." Yes, I know, he's not in Kalifornia. But the engineer is a hypocrite. Now, granted, his statement has a "neutral" tone to it, as he wants to make money off his invention, but still.

Here's a novel idea. Let everyone who wants one, own firearms (short of the mental cases) in Kalifornia. See how quickly gun crime drops in that piss poor excuse of a failed socialist state.

An armed society makes for a polite society. Don't ever forget that.
 
That's a pretty vague non sequiter.
Obviously you have no thoughtful response to the topic at hand, instead offering a dismissive generalization.
Cry me a river. It's obvious you don't know anything about guns, gun laws, or gun rights. You just troll these articles and splash them, hoping for a reaction.

Kalifornia has driven the gun business out of the state. Barrett no longer sells his guns there - he used to be the biggest supplier of police departments. Keep this up, and there won't be any private sector left.
 
How hard could it possibly be for a criminal to file down the codes on the firing pin...?

Kalifornia has regulated the crap out of everything and it is showing no signs of stopping. Is it any wonder the state is broke?
 
Kalifornia has regulated the crap out of everything and it is showing no signs of stopping. Is it any wonder the state is broke?

Seems that way - they just can't leave things alone. I recently heard that they are also trying to make catalytic converters compulsory on all new gas powered lawn mowers. :lol:
 
The American Academy of Pediatrics??? That's like consulting Guns and Ammo on how to do open heart surgery.

children get shot and shoot each other with carelessly stored firearms,

You just troll these articles and splash them, hoping for a reaction.

The pot calling the kettle black,

Kalifornia has driven the gun business out of the state. Barrett no longer sells his guns there - he used to be the biggest supplier of police departments. Keep this up, and there won't be any private sector left.

So gun regulation is going to kill the private sector.
That's quite a stretch, even for you.

How hard could it possibly be for a criminal to file down the codes on the firing pin...?


That remains to be seen.
It can be designed to not work if tampered with.
Also the criminal has to make that effort.
Nothing is perfect.

Kalifornia has regulated the crap out of everything and it is showing no signs of stopping. Is it any wonder the state is broke?

That's a red herring.
The state is in financial difficulties because it spends more money than it takes in.
The voters have limited tax increases and the state doesn't have the discipline to cut spending.


Seems that way - they just can't leave things alone. I recently heard that they are also trying to make catalytic converters compulsory on all new gas powered lawn mowers. :lol:

You may enjoy fumes but
2 and 4 stroke engines in lawnmowers and other devices have no emission controls and are a significant source of pollution.
Southern Kalifornia is unique in that smog accumulates and hangs over the basin
Now that car emissions have been cut by 90%+ other internal combustion engines should have their emissions cut to keep people more healthy.
I don't see why you think this is a joke.
 
Now that car emissions have been cut by 90%+ other internal combustion engines should have their emissions cut to keep people more healthy.
I don't see why you think this is a joke.

Because catalytic converters + hot weather + dry grass don't mix. Briggs and Stratton aren't happy about it for that reason. Not to mention, it will help drive up the cost of cheap mowers / maintenance parts for the rest of us.
 
Here we go! "Let's make it about the children"! What a typical Liberal excuse.

Please, explain to me, how does a serial numbered pin PREVENT a child from shooting a sibling with a "carelessly" stored firearm?

Go ahead. Tell me. Please.

A study done by the Rainforest Foundation has shown that children are inherently scared of serial numbered pins. ;)
 
The best part is- after such a feel good measure is passed with the intention of bankrupt the industry... how easy will it be for a criminal to work around it?

FIRST- it only would work with new firearms. So if you intend to commit a crime with a firearm, you simply use any of the ones made the previous century.

SECOND- it only works if the gun is registered. You can't trace a registration number back to an owner if the gun isn't registered with the states or federal database.

Third- how easy will it be to disable? If you can fine down the digits, even just one or two of them, you have defeated the system. More importantly, if you're a criminal who feels the need to legally purchase a firearm in the state of California. Then properly register the weapon. Then use it to commit crimes, it would take only a few minutes to put AN OLD HAMMER on it.

A vintage one.

Unintended consequence... all of those crappy guns that the city pays to destroy will suddenly be worth a small fortune on the street in parts.


But the point here isn't really reducing gun crime, it's reducing guns and gun rights.
And the protecting children or other feel good ploys are just that, designed to tug at the emotions and misdirect.
 
Unintended consequence... all of those crappy guns that the city pays to destroy will suddenly be worth a small fortune on the street in parts.

Didn't even think of that. Excellent point. I think the problem is that these left-wingers attempt to turn the U.S. into a utopia even though they are staring at the flaw which would make it crumble directly in the face, i.e. human nature.
 
Firing pins are small, easily removed pieces of a firearm mechanism. Since we're talking about a microscopic modification to the contact end of the firing pin, removal of this modification would require nothing more technical than a brief rubbing contact with, for instance, a concrete surface. Such a concept may be far beyond the comprehension of your average liberal or progressive, but even the dumbest crook should be able to figure it out in two, maybe three seconds. Just another useless feel-good gesture.
KS
 
Here we go! "Let's make it about the children"! What a typical Liberal excuse.

Please, explain to me, how does a serial numbered pin PREVENT a child from shooting a sibling with a "carelessly" stored firearm?

Go ahead. Tell me. Please.

I don't know their exact reasoning but I presume the pediatricians figure more gun control overall will result in better handling and care of guns in general and thus lead to less accidents.
 
Then use it to commit crimes, it would take only a few minutes to put AN OLD HAMMER on it.
.

You mean Firing Pin.

A Hammer is what strikes the firing pin when you pull the trigger. This in turn hits the hammer end of the firing pin driving it forward into the primer.

But close enough. You get 1/2 a cookie. :D
 
Firing pins are small, easily removed pieces of a firearm mechanism. Since we're talking about a microscopic modification to the contact end of the firing pin, removal of this modification would require nothing more technical than a brief rubbing contact with, for instance, a concrete surface. Such a concept may be far beyond the comprehension of your average liberal or progressive, but even the dumbest crook should be able to figure it out in two, maybe three seconds. Just another useless feel-good gesture.
KS



To a point, you're correct. Firing pins are small, but not all of them. Ever seen the firing pin in say, a 50 Cal. BMG?

And the problem is, firing pins are built with pretty tight tolerances as far as length. I agree with you, removing said numbers of a firing pin would be relatively easy (though, you'd really want a grinder, since firing pins are typically make of pretty solid steel) to do, however, the question is, how will you make sure the firing pin will still be long enough to trike the primer after you take the numbers off?

Think of the movie "Shooter", and how he replaced the firing pins in his rifles with pins that were a few thousands of an inch shorter.

Not that I'm planning any such thing(s), but I could easily go commit a crime with a SERIAL NUMBERED firing pin equipped firearm, and it would never get traced back to me. How? I'm glad you asked. Simple. Pick up the spent casings. Or, get a spent casing catcher available for most semi automatic pistols and rifles. Or, just use a revolver.
 
Because catalytic converters + hot weather + dry grass don't mix. Briggs and Stratton aren't happy about it for that reason. Not to mention, it will help drive up the cost of cheap mowers / maintenance parts for the rest of us.

This may be so with cars and trucks that have their catalytic convertors mounted underneath where they can come in contact with the grass.

That's why the car companies added shields over the convertors on cars.

I don't know about your mower but the mine has the muffler bolted to the engine at about a foot off the ground well inside the case that covers the blades.
My riding mower also has the muffler mounted way high away from contact with the grass.

The cost argument is typical but in reality all the safety and emission measures on cars have not driven the average inflation adjusted price up when you compare a 1959 Belair vs a 2009 Malibu as we have discussed here in previous posts.

And since lawnmowers do not require a yearly inspection, if the convertor needed replacing you could operate the mower without it.

There's tons of used mowers around. I see plenty for sale every time I go to the flea market.
Just as old cars are not required to be retrofitted with newer emission controls the same applies to mowers and other small gas engine powered devices such as commercial generators, compressors and other construction machines and vehicles.
 
Liberals are the greatest threat to our democracy.

There, I said it.:shifty:


Lizotte, a self-described conservative gun owner, said he created the technology partly to give the military a way of tracking firearms. He also wanted to give law enforcement a tool to defeat criminals whose behavior maligns law-abiding gun owners.

Ironic then that this was invented by a conservative gun owner.
I suppose you consider him a traitor to conservatives?
 
I don't know anything about Lizotte, except what you've provided.
But no one is taking issue with designer, just the politicians who seek to seek regulation with the intention of limiting our rights.
 
But----

To a point, you're correct. Firing pins are small, but not all of them. Ever seen the firing pin in say, a 50 Cal. BMG?

And the problem is, firing pins are built with pretty tight tolerances as far as length. I agree with you, removing said numbers of a firing pin would be relatively easy (though, you'd really want a grinder, since firing pins are typically make of pretty solid steel) to do, however, the question is, how will you make sure the firing pin will still be long enough to trike the primer after you take the numbers off?

Think of the movie "Shooter", and how he replaced the firing pins in his rifles with pins that were a few thousands of an inch shorter.

Not that I'm planning any such thing(s), but I could easily go commit a crime with a SERIAL NUMBERED firing pin equipped firearm, and it would never get traced back to me. How? I'm glad you asked. Simple. Pick up the spent casings. Or, get a spent casing catcher available for most semi automatic pistols and rifles. Or, just use a revolver.

Just for example, the firing pin in my usual daily-carry 'little friend', a monkeyed-with Kimber shortie, is titanium and, as is true of all 1911s and most other pistols and revolvers as well, is of the free-floating, rebounding type. You couldn't grind off a half-inch, but a few thousandths wouldn't make any difference. After any situation that could conceivably result in any official scrutiny, I routinely slug and polish the Bar-sto barrel, ditto the chamber, polish the standing breech, and stone the tips of the firing pin and the extractor and ejector. Policing brass is always routine, but sometimes time is a bit short. :shifty: :D
KS
 
You keep grinding away a few thousands of an inch and see what happens when you grind it down a bit too much.

Primers have to be struck pretty hard and deep to go off.

As far as cleaning that 1911 so much? Eh. Not everyone has heard of pistols that will go through 5000 rounds before they really need a cleaning. ;)

Then again... what do I know about firearms?
 
So gun regulation is going to kill the private sector.
That's quite a stretch, even for you.
I guess you're not familiar with the term 'microcosm.'

Do you know how much guns cost in the sixties?
 
I don't know their exact reasoning but I presume the pediatricians figure more gun control overall will result in better handling and care of guns in general and thus lead to less accidents.
Yeah that hasn't worked. That's typical bandwagon stuff. Gun laws don't reduce accidents or crime, they only serve to disarm law abiding citizens.
 

Members online

No members online now.
Back
Top