True Political Humor
- Thread starter De-marko
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PetesSweets86
Dedicated LVC Member
dunno what children you're f*cking but children never compromise or have same ideals. Why do you think there's millions and millions of toys out there...many are customizable....because not one single child has the same trainof thought as the other. But with years being involved into the society that's put us into a corner and makes us develop routine......trend....etc etc...then we start thinking alike....those whom break free and develop an independent train of mind can then access unfamiliarity :-D
one troll agreeing with another. Isn't that cute.
having another one of your animal house Neidermier moments?
PetesSweets86
Dedicated LVC Member
omg i pissed my pants
FIND
Dedicated LVC Member
There are costs for the added infrastructure. Maintaining streets and neighborhoods, their children who are born here and go to school, the cost of them going to hospitals without insurance....
The percentage working under fake identities and actually contributing to social security is incredibly low. Plus, nearly all of the illegals are making so little money they have very little withheld from their checks. Day laborers working for just some cash would pay nothing in.
Illegals don't even put enough money into social security to cover a little bit of what congress uses for their slush fund. They definitely don't contribute enough in taxes to cover the cost of them being here.
http://reason.org/news/show/122411.html
What's more, aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks. Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they'll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the "earnings suspense file" — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus. The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year.
Beyond federal taxes, all illegals automatically pay state sales taxes that contribute toward the upkeep of public facilities such as roads that they use, and property taxes through their rent that contribute toward the schooling of their children. The non-partisan National Research Council found that when the taxes paid by the children of low-skilled immigrant families � most of whom are illegal — are factored in, they contribute on average $80,000 more to federal coffers than they consume.
Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html
While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections.
Illegal immigration, Marcelo Suárez-Orozco, co-director of immigration studies at New York University, noted sardonically, could provide "the fastest way to shore up the long-term finances of Social Security."
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
The government is banking on illegal immigrants to shore up social security and you are simply misinformed.
You know, if Obama had pushed for a law that required people to carry 'papers' on them at all times to prove their citizenship, and that allowed law enforcement agencies to question anyone, anytime just for the reason that they suspected that the people might not have papers, and the government would have been able to detain people until proper papers could be presented and verified, the right would have had a field day with Nazi images, goosestepping footage, and constant references to Hitler.
Technically legal immigrants are required to carry their papers with them at all times but in reality a green card of other document only has to be shown when crossing the border or to fill out an I-9 employment form.
The Real ID act is consolidating information.
People have to prove they are are citizens to get the enhanced ID.
A real id drivers license can be used to cross the border and a non real id license is not accepted anymore.
Producing a real id drivers license is equivalent to producing a passport and everyone carries their drivers licenses and doesn't have a problem with that.
Some states give illegal immigrants regular drivers licenses which I suppose can be a sort of maybe identifier to cops.
Enhanced driver's licenses are quickly becoming de facto national ID cards so this issue is fixing itself.
A sweeter smelling wallet size national photo ID card by another name is now the enhanced drivers license.
The Real ID act is consolidating information.
People have to prove they are are citizens to get the enhanced ID.
A real id drivers license can be used to cross the border and a non real id license is not accepted anymore.
Producing a real id drivers license is equivalent to producing a passport and everyone carries their drivers licenses and doesn't have a problem with that.
Some states give illegal immigrants regular drivers licenses which I suppose can be a sort of maybe identifier to cops.
Enhanced driver's licenses are quickly becoming de facto national ID cards so this issue is fixing itself.
A sweeter smelling wallet size national photo ID card by another name is now the enhanced drivers license.
So you think everyone has a driver's license - just ask your average New York City resident. How about someone under the age of 16. How about someone who went out for a quick run to the supermarket and just grabbed a five out off the kitchen counter and jumped in the car. It is easy for a California undocumented worker to get a driver's license. I don't have an enhanced driver's license - Colorado isn't participating, and in fact, Texas' governor blocked his state's participation in the program. So, going to Mexico I need a passport. A driver's license is years or even decades away from being considered proof of citizenship for most of the country.
FIND
Dedicated LVC Member
No. Those numbers in those articles are based upon estimates, and misleading statistics, and those estimates can vary widely depending on the source. If you are getting information from a highly liberal source that supports legalizing illegal immigration, then illegals are providing a surplus of taxes. If you are getting your information from a highly conservative source, then illegals are providing nothing.
Now, I am sure we are all aware how statistics work. Statistics can be made to say whatever we want them to say. Sure, for those illegals working with false documentation, they are putting far more money in then THEY will EVER receive back. Their children however are utilizing this money. Others who are working without false documentation are also using this money. Also, I would LOVE to see a source that factors and details all of the costs and the amount paid in by illegal immigrants.
Now, let's analyze how statements can be misleading.
you bolded
and $50 billion sounds like a lot of money to be adding to the coffers, but,
when this information is entered in the proper context, the numbers take a sharp drop.
You now only have $7.5-8.5 billion entering the federal system, or roughly $500 - $1000 per illegal immigrant as per the estimates of the current number of illegals living in this country. Now, for arguments sake, we can say they are providing as much in sales tax revenues as any poverty level people are. They rent from someone who pays property taxes, or pay it themselves. Now beyond that..... How much income taxes do you think they are paying on poverty level wages? Withholding when the wages are that low is not real high, plus they can add exemptions and pretty much pay nothing but social security and medicare. So, what is the REAL tax contribution by illegal immigrants? You also must factor in that not all incorrect W-2s are those of illegal immigrants, many of them are W-2s for regular workers that were just incorrect. This is why the IRS has packets for W-2 corrections. However it seems that both sources you had provided are chalking all incorrect w-2s up to illegal immigrants.
Now, how much do you think it costs for each illegal immigrant in this country and for each of their children? Remember, the estimates for the numbers of illegal immigrants don't include the number of natural citizens born in this country to illegal immigrants, much of whom will statistically have a poverty level income their whole lives after reaching adulthood.
I too could find some articles and quote them, but no matter what they are contributing to one source, as a whole they are costing far more than they contributing, just like any other person living at or under poverty level in this country, only difference is they will more than likely never collect social security or medicare benefits. That is not exactly enough to balance things out now is it?
Off topic, but I am gonna add this incase anyone hasn't been able to read it yet, this is the Arizona immigration law that was passed recently:
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf
if one reads it, it basically says the same thing as the federal law, just giving local and state police the power to enforce the laws without going through INS.
Maybe we should make the sim card in a cell phone the id device.
Here in new york they give them out free to welfare recipients.
Seems everyone has a cell phone today.
I hear you can get electronic concert tickets on an iphone.
Let's put Jobs on it.
Apple will take care of it better than the government.
Hell the military uses ipods and ipads and iphones instead of their own devices because apple makes a better mousetrap.
Yes you're right.
Only people in border states who cross often are signing up for real id cards but it is a portent of the future.
So don't be so lazy and come up with these articles and quote them.
Otherwise it's just your opinion based on a gut feeling.
It may more than balance out the difference or be a wash but your saying it's so doesn't make it true.
FIND
Dedicated LVC Member
Why dig up the articles? That was my point, based upon who you are reading articles by, they will say different things. I figured doing the math would better illustrate my point than just finding another person who says something similar to what I do and then arguing their credibility.
Estimates range from 8-20 million illegals in this country. This means that given the articles YOU posted, they are contributing between $500-$1000 a piece on average to social security and medicare. They will not get that money back more than likely. The question I was posing to you was, does $500-$1000 a year cover the expenses of state, federal and local government for each of these individuals living under poverty level and their children? I am not talking about gut feelings or anything else, I am giving you factual numbers based upon the estimated amounts in articles you provided and asking for simple math.
Just because I didn't take the time to dig for a random article to prove my point doesn't make it invalid. I just chose to use facts instead of arguing credibility of the articles. Somehow I thought using the "facts" from the articles you yourself provided would give you some sense of satisfaction in doing the calculations, since you would be less prone to argue credibility. I didn't even bother to adjust any of the figures that I used to account for the fact that MANY tax returns and W-2s filed that are listed as incorrect are actually those of legal citizens in which there is an error which is corrected at a later date.
My opinion based upon a gut feeling. BAH. Silliness.
PetesSweets86
Dedicated LVC Member
I find it funny that we're considered racists and KKK members if we agree to impose anti-immigration laws but yet every country that is not America is looked to no differently even with their harshest anti-immigration laws. Illegals in our country should be lucky we don't kill em, grind em up into fertilizer or dog food. Imagine if our cows were fed on illegal show and now corn...we might be healthier ...unless it's latino illeal show...it'll have corn in it...I'm sure....
...unless it's latino illeal show...it'll have corn in it...I'm sure....
FIND
Dedicated LVC Member
Very well, I will agree that saying nothing was an overstatement that I made for the purpose of making a point.
I have not lowered the contribution to $500. Of those who are paying social security taxes their contribution is right around the $2000 range that you are stating, however, not every illegal works or pays social security taxes under false social security numbers.
Once again, I direct you to the very numbers YOU supplied earlier:
from the New York Times article YOU provided http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?_r=1
now, math seems to be escaping you so I will help you out a bit here.
7 billion plus 1.5 billion = 8.5 billion in mandatory taxes that low income people cannot get out of. These are the amounts they estimate based upon incorrect W-2s that are filed. We can assume the bulk of these W-2s are filed by illegals, not all, but many. For the purposes of our argument, let's just say all of them.
Now. Take 8.5 billion. Divide that amount among the estimated 8 to 20 million illegal immigrants living inside the United states. Even using a low estimate for our illegal population, that is around, surprise, $1000 per person. I was using 17 million as the upper estimate for illegal population in the US earlier, and that would mean contributions on average by illegal immigrants is, gasp, $500.
Now let's take this one step further, because in my initial argument, I was including employer contributions. $50 billion in erroneous W-2 statements. 8% of that 50 billion is social security contributions, that means $4 billion. The other $4 billion is coming from employers. SO, when you look at it that way, let's just take the figure of 8 million illegal immigrants living in the US. That means, that while some are paying in ~$2000 a year, the average contribution by an illegal immigrant if we figure 8 million immigrants living in this country is only $500. (weird how these numbers I said earlier keep coming up). Employers are footing the other $500 per illegal immigrant. Now. If you take a look at these numbers, that means only one out of four illegal immigrants at most are working under false social security numbers and paying any type of withholding taxes.
Take upper level estimates of 20 million illegals living in this country, and the average contribution shrinks to around $200 per illegal immigrant living in this country. That would mean, of the illegal population, as little as one in ten may be working under false social security numbers and paying any type of withholding.
Like I said, no back pedaling, no substitution, no worrying the sources will not back my argument. Just simple math. I don't need to dig up articles, because your articles already support my argument. You just need to apply proper context to those arguments.
Using the information YOU provided, and current estimates for the number of illegals in this country, I can confidently say, most illegals are contributing NOTHING to taxes and the general public interest. Especially when you consider that of the money many of them earn in this country, they send to their impoverished family members in other countries.
Try again. YOU are misinformed. I understand you don't want to admit your error after you stated that so confidently earlier and argued so forcefully.... but.... yeah. I am not going to google just to find someone who wrote an article that happens to agree with me, the numbers are more than enough to prove my point. If you want to continue to argue with me, why don't you find some way to disprove the basic math I performed instead of just random flaming because I won't play the post an article game.
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You're entitled to your opinion which is what you state at the end.
To you 7 billion a year that is helping carry SS that you had overlooked in your initial statement is somehow a not even a contribution.
To you 7 billion a year that is helping carry SS that you had overlooked in your initial statement is somehow a not even a contribution.
FIND
Dedicated LVC Member
My original statement was that most are giving nothing.
Going by just numbers. Not your opinion. Not my opinion. Not some news articles opinion. PURE VERIFIABLE NUMBERS from the IRS and estimates for the size of our illegal immigrant population. Between 75% and 90% of illegal immigrants are contributing NOTHING to social security. Read my damn post again before you come up with more of that drivel.
It seems you want to focus on that little snippet you quoted out of context to cover up the fact that you are completely, entirely, and unequivocally wrong. Sorry, doesn't work that way.
Mechanicboy
Dedicated LVC Member
It shouldn't work that why, but the contrary seems to be true. Just like illegal used to mean illegal, unless your of color or from over the boarder.
lincolnx2
Dedicated LVC Member
We are all "of color"! What are you trying to say? I was arrested when I was 19 years old for driving on a suspended license, he didn't let me go because I was black, he didnt arrest me because I was black, he arrested me because I was driving on a suspended license. Please stop with this racism stuff. The debate is about Illegal Immigrants, African Americans aren't immigrants, hence the American part in African American.
PetesSweets86
Dedicated LVC Member
lincolnx2
Dedicated LVC Member
I have Chocolate Salty Balls also, want to try some?
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