Turbo project

MediumD said:
Well the PVC sure is an... interesting idea.

Other than that, two words:

Take pictures.
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I think what Medium is trying to say in a polite manner is that, "Running PVC under the car for boost is a dumb idea." I wholeheartedly agree.

It will hold the pressure but that is not the only stress it will need to withstand. It will also need to withstand the undercar heat and cooling cycles, weather, road debris, continuous chassis flexing and so on. PVC is not designed to withstand all of those stresses. It is meant to be used in an immobile location and protected by a wall or concrete so that it cannot be cracked or crushed. I can guarantee you that within 1-2 months you will have cracked that PVC pipe and be chasing boost leaks like crazy if it doesn't just altogether fall apart.

Do it the right way and just run some aluminum forward. It is light and not terribly expensive.

As a person who has many years of experience in this stuff I have one continuing recommendation for those who are new. Don't do it unless you are at least going to do it right. I am not saying go balls to the wall for the best stuff money can buy, but at least do it right. If you think that you might be cutting a corner then don't do it. Tiltedhalo, you knew you were not doing it right otherwise you would not have put the comment in there about "getting looks for this". Sometimes that feeling right there is a good guide to stay away from certain things. My post is not meant as any sort of flame or jerk comment in any way but I think you do require a little bit of a reality check when it comes to doing things the correct way. Best of luck man.
 
I don't understand how PVC would save much money.... especially when your replacing it when it breaks lol...
 
PVC piping for boost? Hell, why don't you just run dryer hose for boost then? It would save on weight, too! :rolleyes:

Obviously you're not aware of the exceptionally craptacular heat transfer abilities of PVC piping as opposed to steel.
 
I think you can only get dryer hose in white so I would suggest wrapping it in Duct tape to make it look more like sheet metal and more professional.
 
I would use this!

Exhaust_Flexible_Pipe.jpg
 
Like I said I knew I would get looks, and not for doing things the cheap way.
The fiber reinforced PVC will withstand more pressure liquid and vapor and 120deg worth of state change and will withstand greater impact then any light gauge metal, but can be chemically bounded cut routed and shaped easier then metal. Its cost is actually more then "normal" piping.
I will document the entire build as soon as I get around to doing it, I am a little busy right now getting a new business of the ground.
I have done a little more math on pressure drops and thermal coefficients, I have had to remove the stock 8PSI waste gates for 12PSI ones. To offset the pressure drop on the run forward the pipe needs to be 1.3/4 inch per turbo, the exhaust also has to be modified to keep the temps as high as possible to the back of the car to increase the flow to the cool side of the turbos. This should with the size of my inter cooler and throttle body air inlet carry about 6 to 8PSI at the engine, possible 10PSI if needed, with little lag, the spin up on the small T3's will help with the heavy exhaust flow per turbo.
I am actually thinking about hacking back into the engine, for better rods and pistons.............
 
Tiltedhalo said:
The fiber reinforced PVC will withstand more pressure liquid and vapor and 120deg worth of state change and will withstand greater impact then any light gauge metal
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If you have your heart set on using your special PVC pipe then no one here is going to stop you. However, I do suggest that you do one test before committing to it. Cut a 2' section of mild steel and a 2' section of your PVC. Then take a 10lb sledge and smack each one squarely about 3 times with a half swing. See which one survives the impacts without puncturing or cracking. I know the mild steel will deform quite a bit but it will not puncture or crack because it is more malleable. I do not expect that your PVC will withstand that same impact with the same results since it is much more brittle. If the PVC survives the impact and doesn't crack, or otherwise get punctured, then it might withstand the impact of road debris hitting it. There are still other factors that bring the use of PVC into question besides just puncture resistance.

If you really want oval shaped tubing to ensure maximum ground clearance then go to DrGas.com They sell oval steel tubing and the connectors for it.

I am an STS turbo dealer as well as a performance shop owner and have done many custom and kit remote turbo installs, blower installs and so on. I am not trying to flame you or anything but I would never ever use PVC, whether reinforced or not, for a boost pipe in a vehicle. Especially considering the location of said pipe in a remote mount application.
 
come on guys, i used PVC in many potato guns. its like duct tape, it has endless posibilitys
 
OK this is just getting stupid, can anybody think outside there little thought boxes???? so you are all telling me that a piece of 16gauge aluminum pipe will out perform a piece of fiber reinforced synthetic polymer pipe that is designed to be used in some of the harshest conditions? Like steam recirculation on nuclear subs and ships? 300PSI of steam pressure in a harsh acidic and alkylin environments? with over 5000PSI impact strength? Yeh I am sure it wont survive long under the family sedan with 6PSI of atmospheric pressure.
The reason for going this route is the ease of assembly, easy to route cut and join, and durability no oxidation, ect...........
Just because everybody else has not used it a sure reason for it not working right? Remember nobody has thought outside the box with turbo and supercharging for over 70 years, you can paint it a different color but its still the same thing.
God I am just waiting for the abuse I will take for the intercooler.
 
Why think outside the box when the box is built and proven to work.... your not coming up with something that is going to increase hp or make the car lighter... being different just to be different is kind of pointless...
 
I, for one, am looking forward to seeing how this particular build works out. I can think of as many pluses as minuses to the use of PVC for a cold side. Bring 'er on!!!
KS
 
I didn't necessarily mean the PVC idea is retarded... I have my doubts and I wouldn't try it on my vehicle - I don't think the logistics of running a metal pipe are enough to warrant a change to PVC. However, I would like to see how it performs on his.
 
cracked and broken

Just wondering how you made out with your project? Did the pvc work for you? Based on past experiences here. What happens to PVC in the winter time when everything is frozen? It becomes even more stiff and brittle. I'm in construction and when it hits 20, when your working with pvc, weather it be for electrical conduit, water or gas piping. If you drop it, the thing cracks, shatters or breaks off like a busted beer bottle. As for twisting, just forget about it, theres no such thing in the cold. It is true they have new and improved pvc, but that just cracks down the length of the pipe making another foot useless if your lucky.

I myself use PVC for alot, but have only found one use for it in the auto world. I converted 1/2 of my tool box into a cooler, and piped a drain through the bed of my truck with 1/2" pvc, worked great till something i threw in the bed snapped it clean off.
 
Project is on a hold for now, I have the engine apart and just installed some H beam rods and KB pistons and changed out the cams to something a little beefier. I upped the compression a full point. I am actually leaning toward doing the turbos on my town car. I have always been a normally aspirated type of guy never really liked power adders. So I going to see how far I can push it.
By the way the pipe I would be using is not standard schedule PVC it is fiber reinforced PPVC designed for high pressure high temp variation duty, its used for reactor cooling in nuclear ships ect.. and is actually far more expensive then standard piping, my reasoning is that it can be cut bonded and shaped easier then standard pipe.
 
Tiltedhalo said:
OK this is just getting stupid, can anybody think outside there little thought boxes???? so you are all telling me that a piece of 16gauge aluminum pipe will out perform a piece of fiber reinforced synthetic polymer pipe that is designed to be used in some of the harshest conditions? Like steam recirculation on nuclear subs and ships? 300PSI of steam pressure in a harsh acidic and alkylin environments? with over 5000PSI impact strength? Yeh I am sure it wont survive long under the family sedan with 6PSI of atmospheric pressure.
The reason for going this route is the ease of assembly, easy to route cut and join, and durability no oxidation, ect...........
Just because everybody else has not used it a sure reason for it not working right? Remember nobody has thought outside the box with turbo and supercharging for over 70 years, you can paint it a different color but its still the same thing.
God I am just waiting for the abuse I will take for the intercooler.
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No, That's the problem here. Nobody is open to any new ideas. I myself used PVC in a turbo system once & it worked great! I used it to adapt a front mount intercooler on a Thunderbird Turbo Coupe. All I can say is that it worked just fine. And no, I didn't use a bunch of fittings & PVC glue either. PVC can be heated with a propane attachment & it bends very easy. When done the PVC can be painted whatever color you want & you would never know that it's PVC!

Good luck!
 
Tiltedhalo said:
I upped the compression a full point.
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I've had several years of experience building turbo systems from scratch, operating them to the motors breaking point on the street and drag strip. I would not be concerned about the material you use to move the high volume,low pressure air but actualy raising the comp ratio of a normaly aspirated motor and then adding boost is not something I would suggest as a first exersize in forced induction. Traditionaly we would drop the comp a full point and add 15-25psi, on a normaly aspirated motor we would run 7-12psi. On a NA motor plus a full point of comp your fuel control to control detonation and exhaust temps is critical and running as little at 10psi will require an intercooler and/or alcohal inj when in boost unless a dedicated stand alone FMU is used while monitoring a wide band and a EGTs gauge (or 8, one per runner).

If your set on a turbo setup on a street driven car I would aer to a larger turbo to soften the boost ramp, adding air to an already 300hp motor results in insane boost responce. I have turbos here at home that would fit your need, used good Garetts from 7-12 ltr truck ap's that work well on v-8's.
 
turborich said:
No, That's the problem here. Nobody is open to any new ideas. I myself used PVC in a turbo system once & it worked great! I used it to adapt a front mount intercooler on a Thunderbird Turbo Coupe. All I can say is that it worked just fine. And no, I didn't use a bunch of fittings & PVC glue either. PVC can be heated with a propane attachment & it bends very easy. When done the PVC can be painted whatever color you want & you would never know that it's PVC!

Good luck!
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It is not that we aren't open to new ideas but some of us have experience with this stuff and know what does and does not work.

As far as the OP's reasoning to go with PVC because it will be easier to route is a little off too. Aluminum mandrel bends, aluminum straight tubing, silicone connectors, and clamps go a long long way. It would be quicker, easier, cheaper, and more durable to do it the way I suggest rather than trying to use PVC or PPVC. Also PVC doesn't have nearly as good of thermal transfer properties as metal does which will mean higher IAT's and less hp/psi boost. Admittedly that less hp/psi boost will not be huge but it still adds up especially on a low boost system. But hey what do I know, I only build custom turbo systems for other people as a business, as well as being an STS Turbo dealer. :p

I have always been a person that broke the mold. If I had an idea that I thought would work while others thought impossible I was rarely deterred. I have made many a breakthroughs that way with various vehicles with little to no aftermarket support. Sometimes a new idea is not exactly the best idea, while other times it is. My years of experience in the very thing this guy is trying to do tells me that using PVC for the boost pipe, especially on a remote turbo system, is not a very good idea due to durability issues.

Also raising compression is usually not the most boost friendly thing to do. However with that said in a turbo application it will mean better boost response which will allow more streetable power. That is a question that is debated often. High compression with low boost or low compression with high boost. What route you go will totally depend on what your plans are for the vehicle.
 
russ jerome said:
On a NA motor plus a full point of comp your fuel control to control detonation and exhaust temps is critical and running as little at 10psi will require an intercooler and/or alcohal inj when in boost unless a dedicated stand alone FMU is used while monitoring a wide band and a EGTs gauge (or 8, one per runner).
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How exactly will a dedicated FMU somehow be able to reduce the chance of detonation or otherwise replace the IAT cooling abilities of a FMIC, Water/Meth, or Alky injection? :confused: Am I interpreting that portion of your post incorrectly?
 
With a dedicated stand alone like SDS or Smart system fuel can be precisly meterd to come as close to flooding the motor with fuel (cooling) and retarding the timing to a point the comp will not be an issue. This type of programing is user tuned under controlled enviroment (dyno) a little at a time. A dedicated drag motor may run upwards of 13/1 comp with 110 octane and high boost but it is very tricky tuning proceedure that requires time (and trial and error). FMU was probably a bad term, lamen typicaly think of a RRR or FPR when FMU is discussed. E-bay and Jap cars can be thanked for the misconception, like when they sell "EGT Controllers" that are simply gauges and nothing more, they do no controlling of anything.
 
russ jerome said:
With a dedicated stand alone like SDS or Smart system fuel can be precisly meterd to come as close to flooding the motor with fuel (cooling) and retarding the timing to a point the comp will not be an issue. This type of programing is user tuned under controlled enviroment (dyno) a little at a time. A dedicated drag motor may run upwards of 13/1 comp with 110 octane and high boost but it is very tricky tuning proceedure that requires time (and trial and error). FMU was probably a bad term, lamen typicaly think of a RRR or FPR when FMU is discussed. E-bay and Jap cars can be thanked for the misconception, like when they sell "EGT Controllers" that are simply gauges and nothing more, they do no controlling of anything.
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You do not need an FMU or anything like it to enrichen the fueling in these cars while under boost. Depending on the weight of the vehicle I usually tune boosted vehicles around the 11.5:1 AFR and N/A vehicles around 12.5:1 on up to 13:1 AFR depending on the vehicle and engine combo. Tuning for a richer AFR is not something that needs any sort of special aftermarket FMU or standalone fuel controller to accomplish. A higher flowing fuel pump, properly sized injectors, and a MAFS that will be able to meter the additional airflow without pegging are the main hardware items needed to do this. If a person wants to switch to an adjustable FPR then that is fine too.

As you stated before, the AFR's on boost will be richer so as to keep the cylinders cooler. But that still doesn't necessarily replace other IAT cooling items such as an FMIC. It also doesn't replace meth injection which in addition to enrichening the AFR's also raises octane which allows a person to run considerably more spark advance at a given load vs RPM. The custom tune utilizing the factory processor will also be able to fully remap spark timing as well. Unless a person is going for around 1k hp there is no need to start replacing everything with standalone ECM and fuel management.

The type of FMU that I originally believed you were talking about is a piece of simple hardware that attaches within the return line of a return fuel system and restricts the path of the bypassed fuel in a given ratio (based upon the diaphragm used in the FMU) based upon how much boost is sensed in the boost referencing nipple. That is what a standard FMU is. Now an FMS (Fuel Management System) is VERY different from an FMU. Which particular one were you suggesting to be used in your previous post? You are correct that FMU's are VERY different than FPR's in many ways though they both deal with controlling fuel pressure. The hardware type FMU's were acceptable back in the day to get extra fuel for boosted engines when custom computer retuning was much harder to accomplish but it is pretty outdated now. If you go to Corral.net there are still allot of EEC-IV Fox Body Mustang guys that are set in that FMU and MAFS precaled to a given injector size way of thinking but that is literally about 10+ years out of date.
 
ILLS said:
Now an FMS (Fuel Management System) is VERY different from an FMU.
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Thats exactly what I was implying, modern piggy back systems and factory modified or emulated electronics lack the ability of monitoring and adjusting fuel pulse width by using wide band feedback while in boost. Im a fan of SDS for its flexability, have not had any bad experience with any of the fancy aftermarket stuff but realy like the GM stuff if using OE electronics.

A little history on my bias views on turbo's. In the mid 80's we would install RRR on our return lines of 2.2ltr Dodge 4 poppers, fake out the the MAP using zener diodes or spring loaded poppets to bleed air. Without the aftermarket support we would install Cold start inj's before the TB from Bosch equiped vehicles. Later as we got savy we learned to remove and socket chips, burning our own programs to accept 40% larger inj and still idle nice. Running 20psi of boost on a stock Omni was a major feat in the late 80's. GN's were cool and aftermarket tried to help us out. "Turbo Group Fueler" was similar to a cold start in that it used a single inj that was fired depending on onset and gain of boost, worked ok but boost was limited. Fast forward to today, from this laptop I can send a calibration accross the nation, my buddy can install it in his LS1 while he sits in his driveway and drive away running 20 psi on a totaly stock Camaro less turbo. Not a computer guy by any stretch but this 45yr old mechanic of nearly 30yrs LOVES modern electronics :)

My posts have all been in haste, typing from a loud shop here or in between events I hope to read about anybodys progress on turboing a Mark 8 soon.
 
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