'Under God' - Pledge Debate rises again

[Vitas]

To me the Christian faith is good and just. I agree with it most of the time, and I usually like those who practice it. Look at it however from outside your own perspective. There are many who do not think that Christians are good or just.

EVERY human being, at one point or another, through various life's experiences, or more accuarately, tragedies, if they got out lucky, THANKS GOD, that ....

We all look to the same sky above. All human beings on the planet. Of every kind of religion. Do you see various GODS fighting up there?

In terms of the Pledge of Allegiance, kids in school, until they become adolescents, are like wild horses that have not been broken in yet. Teaching them the fear of GOD, is no more innocuous than teaching them about Santa Claus. If instilling the fear of GOD prevents any kind of violence towards other human beings, than it is for the greater good of all.

 

[raVeneyes]

EVERY human being, at one point or another, through various life's experiences, or more accuarately, tragedies, if they got out lucky, THANKS GOD, that ....

We all look to the same sky above. All human beings on the planet. Of every kind of religion. Do you see GOD's fighting up there?

In terms of the Pledge of Allegiance, kids in school, until they become adolescents, are like wild horses that have not been broken in yet. Teaching them the fear of GOD, is no more innocuous than teaching them about Santa Claus. If instilling the fear of GOD prevents any kind of violence towards other human beings, than it is for the greater good of all.

I simply don't agree.

 

[Vitas]

I simply don't agree.

Would you be of FRENCH decendency?

 

[raVeneyes]

Would you be of FRENCH decendency?

Ummm...no

 

[Vitas]

Ummm...no

OK, so explain why you don't agree.

 

[Vitas]

Ummm...no

You asked me to read "your posts" in a previous thread. All I see is your calling people names. What is with that? It is boorishly childish behavior.

 

[MAllen82]

To me the Christian faith is good and just. I agree with it most of the time, and I usually like those who practice it. Look at it however from outside your own perspective. There are many who do not think that Christians are good or just. There are literally more people in the world who think Christians are evil than there are that think Christians are inherently good. Now imagine you are one of those people, and you live in this country. You may on one hand be willing to pledge your allegiance to this country, but on the other hand not want to pledge your allegiance to the Christian god or the puritanical roots of our government...maybe you like the way it works now, but don't believe in the god that is the one that the people in power worship. (This is just a hypothetical...not me, but a very likely position)

If you don't think you can look at it that way, then try the other good way of explaining why a strong separation of church and state is the way to go, the Taliban government.

Taken to an extreme the Taliban government was the antithesis of a Christianized american government. You have to realize that they were only doing what they thought was theologically good and right...what God wanted them to do...what God said was the way it should be...and their God is just as good and holy as your God. In fact, it's the same God, because the religions share the same roots. Now many people within Afghanistan's borders didn't believe in Allah, or Mohammed, nor did they agree with the Taliban's interpretation of the Koran, but since the Taliban were in power, they demanded that everyone within their borders pledge their allegiance to the government and Allah. If you didn't you ran the risk of being shot.

Now very much like the United States...most of the Taliban's laws were based on their interpretation of the bible. Only...they don't allow dissenting voices to say "Hey...I don't believe in God or Allah".

Now in essence that's what the 1950's legislature did...they said, that you must pledge an allegiance to God and thus, imposing their views on everyone. Regardless of where the imposition of belief comes from or if it's good or bad in your eyes, it should not be allowed to stand.

This whole statement is full of crap. First of all, did you know that there are more Catholics in the world than any other religion. I bet you didn't. Ever wonder why the Bible is the number one selling book in the world? It isn't because muslims are buying them. Same god my a$$. They have a perverted version of God and what he wants from us. Who cares if they don't think Christians are just, what's wrong with the principles of the 10 Commandments? Tell me what's wrong with them because I can't find anything. So the fact that we allow dissenting views is the only difference between MY government and the Taliban??? You're crazy. Listen, you are very smart and you can make your arguments sound very intelligent, but you are very uneducated, and make HUGE assumptions about ALOT of things.

 

[immusicman]

You may be correct that the pledge was changed in the 50s. But you are not going back far enough. How many speeches by our leaders have referred to God down through the years? Wasn't this Country founded upon Christian beliefs? Yes it was. I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who said that the Christian Church was "the purest form of democracy" and attempted to model the Government after the way the church did its business. I do not believe the Government tried to impose God on anyone..thats why this country is free. But I believe the majority of those who founded this country were Christian believers. The separation of church and state was to keep the Government out of the church...to allow freedom...The church has never attempted to try and run the Government..that has never been a problem. But, if we didn't have separation..the Government would control what denomination we were and what and when we were allowed to worship. Thank God our founding Fathers knew that! NO ONE is trying to impose GOD on ANYONE. Its a free Country..you don't have to believe in God. BUT< Many People are trying to impose UNBELIEF on the rest of the country by removing Gods name or his commandments from everything. And they have never hurt anyone..EVER.

 

[raVeneyes]

This whole statement is full of crap. First of all, did you know that there are more Catholics in the world than any other religion. I bet you didn't. Ever wonder why the Bible is the number one selling book in the world? It isn't because muslims are buying them. Same god my a$$. They have a perverted version of God and what he wants from us. Who cares if they don't think Christians are just, what's wrong with the principles of the 10 Commandments? Tell me what's wrong with them because I can't find anything. So the fact that we allow dissenting views is the only difference between MY government and the Taliban??? You're crazy. Listen, you are very smart and you can make your arguments sound very intelligent, but you are very uneducated, and make HUGE assumptions about ALOT of things.

Firstly, there are only more christians as a combined whole than any other single religion... The totals can be found in any world almanac and the relative proportions work out to approximately 30% Christian, 25% Islam, 20% non religious, and the rest made up of other faiths. These numbers are always in dispute because of the difficulty of collecting data for some parts of the world, but statisticians agree that the Christian and Islamic numbers are most likely both padded a bit.

So, you are wrong. The grand majority of people in the world are non-christian...by a factor of 2 to 1

Secondly, it is the same God. The Koran in fact includes many of the same books that the old testament does...including the part about Moses and the ten commandments. If we were having this discussion in an Islamic country I'm sure it would be the same though, a bunch of Islamic people think that we have perverted God's message and what he wants from us as well...in fact that is pretty close to an exact quote from Bin Ladden...they think we pervert God...we think they pervert God...and I think only God (if he exists) can say which one is true, but I also think that most likely he'd come down here and tell us we're all idiots and wrong.

 

[raVeneyes]

You may be correct that the pledge was changed in the 50s. But you are not going back far enough. How many speeches by our leaders have referred to God down through the years? Wasn't this Country founded upon Christian beliefs? Yes it was. I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who said that the Christian Church was "the purest form of democracy" and attempted to model the Government after the way the church did its business. I do not believe the Government tried to impose God on anyone..thats why this country is free. But I believe the majority of those who founded this country were Christian believers. The separation of church and state was to keep the Government out of the church...to allow freedom...The church has never attempted to try and run the Government..that has never been a problem. But, if we didn't have separation..the Government would control what denomination we were and what and when we were allowed to worship. Thank God our founding Fathers knew that! NO ONE is trying to impose GOD on ANYONE. Its a free Country..you don't have to believe in God. BUT< Many People are trying to impose UNBELIEF on the rest of the country by removing Gods name or his commandments from everything. And they have never hurt anyone..EVER.

You are quite correct that our country was founded by Christians...in fact mostly by Puritans (a sect which if I'm not mistaken is almost completely gone now though was all the rage back in the 1700s)...which is why I referenced our puritanical roots. But just like the Puritans who have declined so has the influence of the Christian faith on the laws of the land. In the early days of the country you could find anti witchcraft laws...now most of us would think that laughable if not down right anti-constitutional...the founding fathers didn't know everything, and so they made a dynamic flexible government that could grow and change with time.

What I can't understand or agree with is your assertion that people are trying to impose unbelief... No one complains when politicians end speeches with 'God bless America'...no one says that churches can't be on every street corner. The only thing I see people doing is promoting an evolution of government without Christianity as part of it...and just because Christianity isn't part of government does not lessen the belief in it. There are Christians in almost every part of the world...whether their government believes in Christianity or not.

 

[fossten]

Secondly, it is the same God. The Koran in fact includes many of the same books that the old testament does...including the part about Moses and the ten commandments. If we were having this discussion in an Islamic country I'm sure it would be the same though, a bunch of Islamic people think that we have perverted God's message and what he wants from us as well...in fact that is pretty close to an exact quote from Bin Ladden...they think we pervert God...we think they pervert God...and I think only God (if he exists) can say which one is true, but I also think that most likely he'd come down here and tell us we're all idiots and wrong.

"DEE DEE DEE"

You couldn't be more incorrect. In fact, the God of the Bible is NOT the same God as the Allah of the Koran. If you had read either book you would know this.

[font=Times New Roman,Times][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+4]Islam's God[/size][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1][size=-1]If you are a Muslim: W[/size][/size][/font][size=-1][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]elcome. Understand that I do not wish to personally insult you in any way. All religious ideas are by their very nature subject to criticism. If Islam is true, then you should welcome investigation. I ask simply that you consider what is put forth here in the spirit of inquiry.[/font][/size]
​

[font=Times New Roman,Times][/font][font=Times New Roman,Times][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]The Background of Allah[/size][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Pre-Islamic Arabia's religion was one of superstition. Belief in jinns (genies), curse casting, magic stones, totems was the norm - and it was against this background that Allah arose. Evidence of these very sorts of cultural influence is found in such places as Suras 55, 72, 113 and 114.[/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]NOTE: Differing Quranic translations use slightly different numbering systems - if you do not find the verse in the Quran as quoted here it will be a few verses up or down from its reference.[/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Animism, the belief that spirits inhabit rocks, trees and other elements was also very commonplace. Some of these stones were venerated and used as a focal point for the worship of a particular tribal god. Muhammad's family had just such a stone for their own tribe - a black stone that they kept at the Kabah (where the tribal idols were set up). The rites of bowing toward Mecca, making a pilgrimage to the Kabah, running around it seven times, kissing the black stone, then running to a well to throw stones at the devil all found there way into Islamic practice.[/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]The final piece of the puzzle was found in the religion of the Sabeans, an astral religion that worshipped the moon god and planned their religious rites around the lunar calendar. One such rite was fasting from crescent moon to crescent moon, a practice which would also be adopted by Muhammad.[/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Muhammad did not have to explain what these words and practices meant in the Quran, for they were already well known. Even the word "Islam" which many believe to mean "submission," was a known word. In Arabic it was a secular term that denoted the strength and bravery of a desert warrior. Muhammad's father's name contained the word "Allah."[/size][/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]The Moon God[/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]"Allah" is from the compound Arabic word "al-ilah" or in english "the god." This word has been found in pre-islamic writings and other archeological finds. At the Kabah in Mecca 360 gods were worshipped, but it was built especially for the chief deity - the moon god. Allah was the personal title of the moon god. Allah was married to the sun goddess. They produced three daughters, whose worship Muhammad would later make the mistake of condoning. The crescent moon symbol of Arabia came from this god.[/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Muhammad's family revered this particular god, and Muhammad declared him to be the only true god. Muhammad did not re-make the pagan god, he simply removed the lower deities from the rites of worship. That is why he never had to explain who Allah was. So Allah is a deified pagan idol converted into a god in the 7th century. Yet Muhammad claimed this was the God of Abraham that was revealed thousands of years earlier to the Biblical prophets.[/size][/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]A Comparison[/size][/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Is Allah simply the name given by Arabs to the God of the Bible? A quick comparison will show that he is not...[/size][/font]
[font=Times New Roman,Times][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]The Biblical God[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Allah[/size][/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]is knowable [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]cannot be known[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]is revealed in three persons[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]is not the Father, Son nor Holy Spirit[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]is love[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]only demands obedience[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]is a spirit, has personality, loves, thinks, is omnipotent... etc.[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]is not definable, we are only told what Allah is not[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]is a God of grace[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]grace is not found in Allah, only judgment[/size][/font][font=Times New Roman,Times][/font]

[font=Times New Roman,Times][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]As you can see, Allah is clearly not the God revealed in Scripture. Belief in a single god does not mean that the God of Scripture is the one being worshipped. The God of the Bible was known and worshipped many centuries before Allah was converted from one of many pagan idols to a single god.[/size][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Now, because the Quran accepts the Bible as the word of God, it is quite proper that it should adhere to its teachings. The Bible clearly states that prophets must follow the same God as the One revealed by the earliest prophets and not lead people to other, false, gods (Deuteronomy 13:1-5). Therefore, we must take very seriously the fact that Muhammad did not teach the God of the Bible. [/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Idolatry [/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]By taking the stories, traditions, and beliefs of these religions and adding to them the pagan practices of his Arabian culture, Muhammad created his own religion - and attempted to remake Allah into a form that was more appealing to the many religious travelers that he came in contact with during his childhood. [/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Muhammad succeeded in weeding out the lower gods, he moved Arabia from polytheism to monotheism. But being monotheistic does not make one a believer in the true God. Allah is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Allah is not the God of the Christians. [/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]© Doug Beaumont 2002[/size][/font]
​

 

[raVeneyes]

"DEE DEE DEE"

You couldn't be more incorrect. In fact, the God of the Bible is NOT the same God as the Allah of the Koran. If you had read either book you would know this.

[font=Times New Roman,Times][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+4]Islam's God[/size][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1][size=-1]If you are a Muslim: W[/size][/size][/font][size=-1][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]elcome. Understand that I do not wish to personally insult you in any way. All religious ideas are by their very nature subject to criticism. If Islam is true, then you should welcome investigation. I ask simply that you consider what is put forth here in the spirit of inquiry.[/font][/size]
​

[font=Times New Roman,Times][/font][font=Times New Roman,Times][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]The Background of Allah[/size][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Pre-Islamic Arabia's religion was one of superstition. Belief in jinns (genies), curse casting, magic stones, totems was the norm - and it was against this background that Allah arose. Evidence of these very sorts of cultural influence is found in such places as Suras 55, 72, 113 and 114.[/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]NOTE: Differing Quranic translations use slightly different numbering systems - if you do not find the verse in the Quran as quoted here it will be a few verses up or down from its reference.[/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Animism, the belief that spirits inhabit rocks, trees and other elements was also very commonplace. Some of these stones were venerated and used as a focal point for the worship of a particular tribal god. Muhammad's family had just such a stone for their own tribe - a black stone that they kept at the Kabah (where the tribal idols were set up). The rites of bowing toward Mecca, making a pilgrimage to the Kabah, running around it seven times, kissing the black stone, then running to a well to throw stones at the devil all found there way into Islamic practice.[/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]The final piece of the puzzle was found in the religion of the Sabeans, an astral religion that worshipped the moon god and planned their religious rites around the lunar calendar. One such rite was fasting from crescent moon to crescent moon, a practice which would also be adopted by Muhammad.[/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Muhammad did not have to explain what these words and practices meant in the Quran, for they were already well known. Even the word "Islam" which many believe to mean "submission," was a known word. In Arabic it was a secular term that denoted the strength and bravery of a desert warrior. Muhammad's father's name contained the word "Allah."[/size][/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]The Moon God[/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]"Allah" is from the compound Arabic word "al-ilah" or in english "the god." This word has been found in pre-islamic writings and other archeological finds. At the Kabah in Mecca 360 gods were worshipped, but it was built especially for the chief deity - the moon god. Allah was the personal title of the moon god. Allah was married to the sun goddess. They produced three daughters, whose worship Muhammad would later make the mistake of condoning. The crescent moon symbol of Arabia came from this god.[/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Muhammad's family revered this particular god, and Muhammad declared him to be the only true god. Muhammad did not re-make the pagan god, he simply removed the lower deities from the rites of worship. That is why he never had to explain who Allah was. So Allah is a deified pagan idol converted into a god in the 7th century. Yet Muhammad claimed this was the God of Abraham that was revealed thousands of years earlier to the Biblical prophets.[/size][/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]A Comparison[/size][/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Is Allah simply the name given by Arabs to the God of the Bible? A quick comparison will show that he is not...[/size][/font]
[font=Times New Roman,Times][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]The Biblical God[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Allah[/size][/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]is knowable [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]cannot be known[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]is revealed in three persons[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]is not the Father, Son nor Holy Spirit[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]is love[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]only demands obedience[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]is a spirit, has personality, loves, thinks, is omnipotent... etc.[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]is not definable, we are only told what Allah is not[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]is a God of grace[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]grace is not found in Allah, only judgment[/size][/font][font=Times New Roman,Times][/font]

[font=Times New Roman,Times][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]As you can see, Allah is clearly not the God revealed in Scripture. Belief in a single god does not mean that the God of Scripture is the one being worshipped. The God of the Bible was known and worshipped many centuries before Allah was converted from one of many pagan idols to a single god.[/size][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Now, because the Quran accepts the Bible as the word of God, it is quite proper that it should adhere to its teachings. The Bible clearly states that prophets must follow the same God as the One revealed by the earliest prophets and not lead people to other, false, gods (Deuteronomy 13:1-5). Therefore, we must take very seriously the fact that Muhammad did not teach the God of the Bible. [/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Idolatry [/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]By taking the stories, traditions, and beliefs of these religions and adding to them the pagan practices of his Arabian culture, Muhammad created his own religion - and attempted to remake Allah into a form that was more appealing to the many religious travelers that he came in contact with during his childhood. [/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=+1]Muhammad succeeded in weeding out the lower gods, he moved Arabia from polytheism to monotheism. But being monotheistic does not make one a believer in the true God. Allah is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Allah is not the God of the Christians. [/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]© Doug Beaumont 2002[/size][/font]
​

That whole article is laughable. Firstly you're quoting an article from a religious minister who, of course, is going to theorize that the God of christianity and the God of islam are different. Secondly many of his boil downs are just plain incorrect. Thirdly I've read both the Bible and the Koran and to my shock *gasp* same book...till you get to the part about Jesus.

Why don't you read some theologians and religious historians...these are the guys who have actually studied and understand the similarities and differences between the religions.

Everything after the old testament is the whole debate. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all have bibles that say the same thing up to the point where Christ is born. It is that pivotal moment that has separated the three religions ever since.

 

[fossten]

That whole article is laughable. Firstly you're quoting an article from a religious minister who, of course, is going to theorize that the God of christianity and the God of islam are different. Secondly many of his boil downs are just plain incorrect. Thirdly I've read both the Bible and the Koran and to my shock *gasp* same book...till you get to the part about Jesus.

Why don't you read some theologians and religious historians...these are the guys who have actually studied and understand the similarities and differences between the religions.

Everything after the old testament is the whole debate. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all have bibles that say the same thing up to the point where Christ is born. It is that pivotal moment that has separated the three religions ever since.

"DEE DEE DEE"

There you go again. You have obviously never read the Bible, whereas I have. I'll bet you couldn't quote one scripture without looking it up, not that you'd know where to look. You don't even know what you're talking about.

The article I posted was a short rundown of the most basic differences. If you want to get more complex, bring it on. I'd love to debate this with you. But you will probably duck the debate just like you did the evolution debate. 'snif'

You can't articulate the differences b/t God and Allah because you don't have any knowledge on the subject. Your last paragraph shows on a massive scale your pitiful lack of knowledge concerning the history of Christianity, Islam, and Catholicism.

 

[MAllen82]

Firstly, there are only more christians as a combined whole than any other single religion... The totals can be found in any world almanac and the relative proportions work out to approximately 30% Christian, 25% Islam, 20% non religious, and the rest made up of other faiths. These numbers are always in dispute because of the difficulty of collecting data for some parts of the world, but statisticians agree that the Christian and Islamic numbers are most likely both padded a bit.

So, you are wrong. The grand majority of people in the world are non-christian...by a factor of 2 to 1

Secondly, it is the same God. The Koran in fact includes many of the same books that the old testament does...including the part about Moses and the ten commandments. If we were having this discussion in an Islamic country I'm sure it would be the same though, a bunch of Islamic people think that we have perverted God's message and what he wants from us as well...in fact that is pretty close to an exact quote from Bin Ladden...they think we pervert God...we think they pervert God...and I think only God (if he exists) can say which one is true, but I also think that most likely he'd come down here and tell us we're all idiots and wrong.

Ah my friend, but where you go wrong is to think that all muslims are the same. Just like in Christianity, there are many sects, and of all of these sects in both, there are more Catholics. Secondly, it isn't the same God, otherwise we would be the same religion you moron. Think about what you are saying. Last time I checked my God wasn't asking me to blow up a bunch of innocent people to get my 13 or whatever virgins in the afterlife. And don't get me started on all the bad crap my church does, because I know, and that's why I also have a personal relationship with God that goes beyond Catholic ceremony.

And for more of your information, Puritans are Protestants. You have never ceased to amaze me in your ignorance since you started posting here.

Pu·ri·tan (pyr-tn)
n.

1. A member of a group of English Protestants who in the 16th and 17th centuries advocated strict religious discipline along with simplification of the ceremonies and creeds of the Church of England.
2. puritan One who lives in accordance with Protestant precepts, especially one who regards pleasure or luxury as sinful.

booyah

 

[MAllen82]

Adherents.com presents:
The Largest Catholic Communities
Skip down to:
Some Catholic Demographics
Additional links

The Catholic Church is the world's largest religious body. The lists below indicate places that are "most Catholic" or places with large numbers of Catholics.

The complete data sets that these "Top 10" lists are derived from are available in the main Adherents.com database under "C" for "Catholic." But because there are so many records for the Catholic Church it may be faster to look in the Adherents.com Location index if you're looking for a statistic for a particular country, state, or province.

ummm, can you say BOOYAH!!!!!!!!

 

[Vitas]

Secondly, it isn't the same God, otherwise we would be the same religion you moron.

It IS the same GOD. It is the stories and perceptions we get from 2000 years ago that differ. And what were they looking at, and thinking at the time?

This is very easy. Be good, and kind, to your fellow human beings, across the world, of whatever nationality, or origin, they are.

 

[raVeneyes]

It IS the same GOD. It is the stories and perceptions we get from 2000 years ago that differ. And what were they looking at, and thinking at the time?

Thank you for saying it better than I could...same God...different religion because of different interpretation of God's words.

Just like Christianity has many sects and interpretations so does Islam and Judaism, and they are all the same God, with different interpretations and focuses of what has been said by various wise men and prophets.

 

[raVeneyes]

And for more of your information, Puritans are Protestants. You have never ceased to amaze me in your ignorance since you started posting here.

Pu·ri·tan (pyr-tn)
n.

1. A member of a group of English Protestants who in the 16th and 17th centuries advocated strict religious discipline along with simplification of the ceremonies and creeds of the Church of England.
2. puritan One who lives in accordance with Protestant precepts, especially one who regards pleasure or luxury as sinful.

booyah

Puritans are an almost dead SECT of christianity that descended from the Protestant church... The Puritans were the dominant sect of Christianity in early US history, hence why everyone refers to our body of laws as Puritanical in origin.

 

[raVeneyes]

Adherents.com presents:
The Largest Catholic Communities
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Some Catholic Demographics
Additional links

The Catholic Church is the world's largest religious body. The lists below indicate places that are "most Catholic" or places with large numbers of Catholics.

The complete data sets that these "Top 10" lists are derived from are available in the main Adherents.com database under "C" for "Catholic." But because there are so many records for the Catholic Church it may be faster to look in the Adherents.com Location index if you're looking for a statistic for a particular country, state, or province.

ummm, can you say BOOYAH!!!!!!!!

It is the largest religious body, but it does NOT outnumber all other religions...not by a long shot...not in all of time.

I'm saying most of the people in the world are non christian...which is true...look at the same site, in world statistics for religion.

 

[raVeneyes]

"DEE DEE DEE"

There you go again. You have obviously never read the Bible, whereas I have. I'll bet you couldn't quote one scripture without looking it up, not that you'd know where to look. You don't even know what you're talking about.

The article I posted was a short rundown of the most basic differences. If you want to get more complex, bring it on. I'd love to debate this with you. But you will probably duck the debate just like you did the evolution debate. 'snif'

You can't articulate the differences b/t God and Allah because you don't have any knowledge on the subject. Your last paragraph shows on a massive scale your pitiful lack of knowledge concerning the history of Christianity, Islam, and Catholicism.

I've thought long and hard about my response to this all day. I can't help but notice that you are turning this argument in a personal direction all the while you've been accusing me of personal attacks.

I don't really want to go in to my personal history, but suffice it to say I have done much study of the major religions of the world as well as some not so well known ones (like the religions/histories of the native american peoples). I find it fascinating that you have judged my knowledge of the Bible unworthy as I've read it cover to cover three times as well as studying it for three years as a Jehovah's Witness, two years as a Baptist, one year in Catholic school, and several years as just a believer in God. Now my belief system is shaky at best at this point in my life, and perhaps I don't remember everything from reading the bible all those years ago, but believe you me I've studied it.

Now if we can get off my personal knowledge or lack of knowledge I'd like to come to some sort of conclusion in this thread. I am really of the belief a re-writing of the wording of the pledge is in order. At minimum it should be optional how we say it...at most it should just not include a reference to God.

 

[Vitas]

...same God...different religion because of different interpretation of God's words.

I would characterize it as ...same God...different religions, because of different interpretations of personal life experiences. Both then, and now.

 

[raVeneyes]

I would characterize it as ...same God...different religions, because of different interpretations of personal life experiences. Both then, and now.

I'd agree that's also part of it.

 

[MAllen82]

Puritans are an almost dead SECT of christianity that descended from the Protestant church... The Puritans were the dominant sect of Christianity in early US history, hence why everyone refers to our body of laws as Puritanical in origin.

So what's your point?? You said they weren't Christians, and when I inform you of the truth, now you are just reaffirming what I say or what? People refer to our laws as Judeo/Christian, not Puritanical. Our country wasn't founded by them either, our territory was settled by them. Jeez, man, get a clue.

 

[MAllen82]

Thank you for saying it better than I could...same God...different religion because of different interpretation of God's words.

Just like Christianity has many sects and interpretations so does Islam and Judaism, and they are all the same God, with different interpretations and focuses of what has been said by various wise men and prophets.

To be honest with you, that's getting into a real theoretical and philosophical debate. I don't believe that muslims simply misinterpreted what God's message is, and therefore have other beliefs. What they believe in is way off. Yeah, and I know what you're going to say, "Well, what if it's YOUR church that misinterpreted blah blah blaah". Let me explain something to you. I believe my beliefs are right. Otherwise I wouldn't be a Catholic. It's not a question in my mind. It may be for you, I don't know, but I don't see God wanting us to end other people's lives in a "Holy War" against McDonald's and the like.

 

[MAllen82]

I don't really want to go in to my personal history, but suffice it to say I have done much study of the major religions of the world as well as some not so well known ones (like the religions/histories of the native american peoples). I find it fascinating that you have judged my knowledge of the Bible unworthy as I've read it cover to cover three times as well as studying it for three years as a Jehovah's Witness, two years as a Baptist, one year in Catholic school, and several years as just a believer in God. Now my belief system is shaky at best at this point in my life, and perhaps I don't remember everything from reading the bible all those years ago, but believe you me I've studied it.

Seems to me that you are shopping religions to find the one that most coincides with what you believe in. What's the point? At that point, just be satisfied in what you have faith in, and don't go searching for a Church to reaffirm everything. As far as all your "research" goes, none of that qualifies a bunk. I spent every day I wan in school from pre-k until I left college in Catholic school, and I still didn't learn that much from them. I learned all of my knowledge from extra-curricular sources. Oh, you've raed the bible cover to cover three times?? Big deal. Being a Jehovah's Witness?? Ever wonder why they are put into the same group as Unitarians and all those other fringe "Christian" churches?