Unexpected Results!

I'll just say this:

The spark in the tables is set to a pretty conservative setting...I personally wouldn't run under 91 because of the difference in gas milage from retarding the timing....

That said, I run 93.. Yes, the car DOES add in a few degrees (I forget the exact #, but I think for most spots it was another 3 degrees) of advance...

-Matt
 
MAT88GT said:
I've used nothing but 89 octane 10% ethanol blend in my 00...never has pinged

K N O C K S E N S O R S, no kidding theres no ping. Using lower octane saves so little money over the coarse of a year its ponitless. If the car asks for 91 (premium) then not using it causes a knock sensor equipped car to pull timing. Less power, and usually worse emmissions and mpg as well.
 
Well, using a lower octane fuel (which ends up being a longer chain molecule) does have an increase of BTU's per volume of gas, which can lead to more power and better fuel economoy, to a point. The difference in energy content between 10% ethonol and preimum (which can contain up to 10% ethonol without having to have it listed, and if you ask for a gasoline breakdown sheet, this will be proved) isn't much more than about a 2% BTU differance. And running the lower octane in an engine with a high compression ratio, it will knock, as detonation is not based on the spark event but instead of the ignition temperature of the fuel. Knock sensors are used to tell the computer when spark timing has been advanced to far, and to pull back timing. Ignition timing really has no effect on detonation. So if you use low grade fuel and your engine is detonating, the computer will see this as overadvanced timing, and pull a few degrees out, this learned spark table may then lead to a decrease in fuel economy, while still not curing the violent detonation.

If it says 92, run 92, its not worth an engine for a few bucks. If you can honestly say you know all there is to know about the fuels/engine, combustion chamber characteristics, air distribution, you could probably figure what you can get away with. But if you don't know those things, just use what the book says.

On the other hand, if there is a supercharger kit for these engines that will still run on premium fuel, that is a pretty convincing argument that a stock engine will run on 87 fuel, as the difference isn't that great, but is still enough.

Now in my turbo 4cyl, I ran 12psi of unintercooled boost down an engine rated at 9.5:1, I did have minor detonation problems, as this was the edge for the gas I was running (92 octane) and chamber design. After pulling the engine back apart this fall, it was obvious another 2psi would have led to an engine failure..... Things to think about when playing with fuels......
 
Lincolnlov said:
Hey Kleetus how yins been duin? Yea, I agree,who knows what we are getting though we may be payng for 91 or 93. Ya know Quick doesn't have to deal with the cold very much so things could be different down there. Sure wish I had access to some Ford Engrs. I got a pile of questions.
The surging I had in Feb. disappeared as soon as LM fixed my transmission with new solenoids and valve body. Gota admit that they did it with a smile and even called this week to see if I am satisfied with the work. The rich fuel smell still occurs on start up.
Around here bunny huggers and tree huggers hold hands so they can do the bunnies and trees at the same time. While I'm no bunny/tree hugger, I can appreciate the effort. If you ever go to East Europe or Russia it quickly becomes evident that there was and still is little regard for the environment --- its pretty sad so see. And, easy to see why they want to "enjoy" vodka so much. Lincolnlov

Oh yeah.. I forgot you were from da burg. In case you forgot about up here, it's construction season... no spring, just lots of orange barrels springing up all over the roads. Without trying to steer this thread to environmental issues, Our Beloved Govn'r Ed Rendell singed us up for all the C.A.R.B. crap that California has to live with... such niceties like statewide emissions testing, no carburetor adjustments on lawnmowers, chainsaws or small engines unless you go to the dealer, or make your own tool to adjust mixture... Oh, and did I mention you can only buy three handed gas cans now? That would be one to hold it up, one to point it into the tank, and one to operate the vapor/child/generally-any-human proof spring loaded valve. You might actually need two hand for that part. I hear you about Eastern Europe, we do a lot of business there because we can't get silicon product made here in the states anymore. That's okay, I'm sure more people won't mind being outsourced to other countries for the sake of our pristine environment that no one can afford to live in.

Sorry... am I rambling?
 
Kleetus,
Yeah, we've got all those environment saving things here in Va. -- emissions tests, specially formulated gasoline (thats why I wonder what I'm really getting from the pump), no carb adjustments, no open burning, etc. -- except for the silly gas cans. We still have bad air. Its just too many durn people in one place. China has the solution though. They just don't know it. Their air is so bad that in some cities the av. life span is in the 50's and falling. They'll achieve a balance the natural way.
Bet that your gov. doesnt really care too much about clean air but more about the big pile of federal $ that Pa. will get for they implementing more freedom suffocating red tape. Over where my brother lives in the Kiiski Valley them boys know how to deal with the govt. though. They ignore it and basically do as the please -- no feds,no police.
Yins stay good. Lincolnlov
 
Putter-GLHT said:
Well, using a lower octane fuel (which ends up being a longer chain molecule) does have an increase of BTU's per volume of gas, which can lead to more power and better fuel economoy, to a point. The difference in energy content between 10% ethonol and preimum (which can contain up to 10% ethonol without having to have it listed, and if you ask for a gasoline breakdown sheet, this will be proved) isn't much more than about a 2% BTU differance. And running the lower octane in an engine with a high compression ratio, it will knock, as detonation is not based on the spark event but instead of the ignition temperature of the fuel. Knock sensors are used to tell the computer when spark timing has been advanced to far, and to pull back timing. Ignition timing really has no effect on detonation. So if you use low grade fuel and your engine is detonating, the computer will see this as overadvanced timing, and pull a few degrees out, this learned spark table may then lead to a decrease in fuel economy, while still not curing the violent detonation.

If it says 92, run 92, its not worth an engine for a few bucks. If you can honestly say you know all there is to know about the fuels/engine, combustion chamber characteristics, air distribution, you could probably figure what you can get away with. But if you don't know those things, just use what the book says.

On the other hand, if there is a supercharger kit for these engines that will still run on premium fuel, that is a pretty convincing argument that a stock engine will run on 87 fuel, as the difference isn't that great, but is still enough.

Now in my turbo 4cyl, I ran 12psi of unintercooled boost down an engine rated at 9.5:1, I did have minor detonation problems, as this was the edge for the gas I was running (92 octane) and chamber design. After pulling the engine back apart this fall, it was obvious another 2psi would have led to an engine failure..... Things to think about when playing with fuels......

Putter,
Think you have been the only one who has clearly touched upon the reason (more Btu's per gal.) that I got better mileage from 87/93 (presumably 90 mix) than I got from straight 93. Just seems that a 2mpg increase is more that I could have expected. Thanks Lincolnlov
 
What does your fuel filler door say on the back? Mine says 91+. The gummint mandates that ALL cars will run on 87. That doesn't mean that 87 will provide the best efficiency, just that the engine will run. My manual also states that even at high altitude, 91 is still the recommended octane.

For cryin' out loud, you bought a performance, luxury sedan. Don't skimp on something as critical as fuel!!!!
 
LS4me,
Hear ya. But I think Putter-GLHT came pretty close to answering my original question. i.e. why did I get better mileage, under essentially the same dirving conditions, from 90 octane than I get from 93. Answer, lower octane has more BTU's, equals more energy. I knew that higher octane burned slower but didn't know that it containes fewer BTU's per unit volume. Lincolnlov
 
I just wanted to add a comment to this. I know nothing about all this gas stuff, but i did just see on the news about two weeks ago in Milwaukee, that a lot of stations in the area are selling 93 but it is really 87. It was an investigative report that one of the news stations did.

It wasnt just one station it was a lot of them, all owned by different people.

Needless to say they are now getting investigated by the state.

Just thought I would ad that you might really never know if you are getting what you pay for. You have to trust the gas station's business practices as well as the gas.
 
Yep IFORGITED
That is what I was alluding to in the first page of this thread, (are we really getting the 93 octane we pay for) when I mentioned that at a nearby tank farm every brand tanker but Sunoco (cause its blue at the pump) is in and out of there. Can it be that the octane we pay for is just like the brand we pay for? Lincolnlov
 
purelux said:
K N O C K S E N S O R S, no kidding theres no ping. Using lower octane saves so little money over the coarse of a year its ponitless. If the car asks for 91 (premium) then not using it causes a knock sensor equipped car to pull timing. Less power, and usually worse emmissions and mpg as well.


lower octane with less timing doesn't make less power than higher octane and more timing...the combustion still takes place at the same "time" per crank degrees. You can actually lose power by running too much timing with a higher octane fuel, w/o preignition coming into play. Every engine has a "sweet spot" when it comes to timing, octane, a/f ratio, etc.

As long as your car doesn't reach a point of preignition, it doesn't matter which fuel you run...the power difference (if any) is insignificant

Knocksensors don't trigger any advance to be pulled unless there is knock to begin with...
 
Hi guys,

I'm glad someone started a thread on this subject. I have a 2000 LSv6 with 61000. I had used the 91 octane from Quicktrip religiously. However, I could hear a noticable pinging when driving in the inside lane next to the median wall. I tried fuel injector cleaner, no help. Thought that maybe it was something with the miles on the car. I couold live with it. (before I would take it in for a tune up) Recently a friend(?), told me that he heard that it was ok to run 89 octane in the car. Boy oh Boy, WRONG!!!!! The pinging got worse! At low speeds on the streets, I thought my car was going to die, I crindged everytime I gave it some gas from a stop sign. After half a tank full, ( and a very bad headache)I went back to Quicktrip, bought the STP fuel injector cleaner, and filled up with 91 oct., I drove a few short miles around the neighborhood over the weekend (I was babying it). I finally had to venture out onto the highway on Sunday . I heard the pinging starting, soooo, I thought the hell with it (do or die), I floored it. Needless to say the pinging is gone, (very very slight if noticable) and the hesitation that I had before is gone, I'm hoping the gas milage improves.
It is if FINALLY I have my perfect car. :Beer :dj:
 
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MAT88GT said:
lower octane with less timing doesn't make less power than higher octane and more timing...the combustion still takes place at the same "time" per crank degrees. You can actually lose power by running too much timing with a higher octane fuel, w/o preignition coming into play. Every engine has a "sweet spot" when it comes to timing, octane, a/f ratio, etc.

As long as your car doesn't reach a point of preignition, it doesn't matter which fuel you run...the power difference (if any) is insignificant

Knocksensors don't trigger any advance to be pulled unless there is knock to begin with...
MAT88GT,
Agree with you completely! In the OLD days the driver had a lever on the column with which he/she could adjust the advance to achieve the sweet spot. And while I'm old, I'm not that old. But there was one and was on atractor that I used to operate. Had to get the spark right to get the max pulling power. Lincolnlov.
 

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