WARNING GRAPHIC video cash for clunkers
- Thread starter slowmkviii
- Start date
Nut, the exploder would be best off as a pop can - it was in awful shape.
But, had I sold it outright to the salvage yard I would have been in the same predicament - I wouldn't know (or care) what had happened to the vehicle. They could have crushed it right away, the mileage on it, along with the rust might have made it the best option.
I would imagine there will be a few Mark VIIIs owners that use this program - do they get less than 18 combined?
I know of Allante's that have been destroyed... a few '87s - '89s with the 'infamous' 4100 HT (hook and tow) engines, and even a couple of '93 northstars that probably would have needed timeserting to save them, and the cars weren't worth the investment of the cost of timeserting. They were all stripped of 'important' parts before turned in. Heck, one of the '87s had been 'painted' with bedliner. It sort of looked like it had been coated with pine tar. It is a far, far better thing that car is off the road
And, remember I think that the entire 7 year run of Allantes was fewer than 21,000 produced, less than 1/5th of the Mark VIIIs production run. I think it is a good idea that some of the poor creatures are being crushed.
But, had I sold it outright to the salvage yard I would have been in the same predicament - I wouldn't know (or care) what had happened to the vehicle. They could have crushed it right away, the mileage on it, along with the rust might have made it the best option.
I would imagine there will be a few Mark VIIIs owners that use this program - do they get less than 18 combined?
I know of Allante's that have been destroyed... a few '87s - '89s with the 'infamous' 4100 HT (hook and tow) engines, and even a couple of '93 northstars that probably would have needed timeserting to save them, and the cars weren't worth the investment of the cost of timeserting. They were all stripped of 'important' parts before turned in. Heck, one of the '87s had been 'painted' with bedliner. It sort of looked like it had been coated with pine tar. It is a far, far better thing that car is off the road
And, remember I think that the entire 7 year run of Allantes was fewer than 21,000 produced, less than 1/5th of the Mark VIIIs production run. I think it is a good idea that some of the poor creatures are being crushed.
I think you are missing our point here foxy, this program is taking alot of good :q:q:q:q off the streets due to ignorance. And you also said the brakes would be salvaged, Why? last time I checked the drivetrain of a vehicle was from the fan on the front to the end of the axle studs, and also its not safe for boneyards to sell used brake hydraulics. And do you honestly think that the guy scrappin this :q:q:q:q is gonna take the time to remove it first?, no it weighs more all together, which means more money.Also note I'm not sayin brakes are drivetrain, but they aint quick removed items like taillights or a wheel or a mirror. lets just keep makin the rich richer and put the little guy farther down. I work at an independent shop, how long do you think it will be before that brand new car will need a service that even gives me a 50% gp at the end of the day. On maintenance stuff such as oil changes and fluid services we gain nothing except a chance to find a problem, and you aint gonna find problems on a car with 5,000 miles on it. So now that I think of it this program does not benifit me it hurts me. I wont see that vehicle til its out of warranty and on its second owner.
If the brakes from the exploder are worth what Nut indicates they are, they will be pulled, if it is worth it for the salvage yard to pull them.
I work for a place that makes auto parts and we have discussed the whole 'old cars not being repaired because now there will be new cars on the road under warranty'. There was some give and take in that. The cars being traded in are for the most part 'clunkers' and the people owning them would probably have been trading them in the next two years anyway. They have the money to purchase a new vehicle. In my case, like many, I was thinking of getting a couple more years out of the Exploder. I wasn't going to put any additional money into it. In fact, if I had known this program was going to pop up I wouldn't have put a new battery in it last winter. So, very little money would have been spent on this vehicle in repair costs for the next two years that I owned it. Certainly more than the new vehicle (which is under warranty), however, I was going to avoid any additional costs.
There is also the fact that we are stealing from Peter to pay Paul. Fewer people in that 1 to 2 year time frame will be getting new cars, because they are taking advantage of this program. The hope is of course that the economy will be better off then and will be able to take a downturn of 5% in the new car business for 18 months.
It is all a numbers game when you get down to it. I will have less money to spend in the immediate future, however, in the long run, I will have more. The car companies have more money now, but less in future. Of course local governments are the biggest winners along with banks. With sales tax on the vehicle as well as license and ownership taxes, my local governments are going to be seeing some decent increases. Once again, less money for me, but more money for my local government who will perhaps be able to keep a few more people employed. And, of course, the lenders will be seeing more activity and more incoming rolling in. Maybe they keep a branch open. And who knows - since the teller at that branch has an older Sebring that doesn't qualify for the program, she will be keeping her car. And since she has kept her job at the bank, because so many people got loans, she will be able to take that car in and get the timing belt and water pump replaced according to the maintenance schedule on her car. Who knows - she may come into your shop, and that $800 dollar ticket will be yours. Without her job, she would have let that maintenance lapse.
It will be hard to tell the total outcome of this program. It is getting money out of people's pockets and moving it around the economy.
I work for a place that makes auto parts and we have discussed the whole 'old cars not being repaired because now there will be new cars on the road under warranty'. There was some give and take in that. The cars being traded in are for the most part 'clunkers' and the people owning them would probably have been trading them in the next two years anyway. They have the money to purchase a new vehicle. In my case, like many, I was thinking of getting a couple more years out of the Exploder. I wasn't going to put any additional money into it. In fact, if I had known this program was going to pop up I wouldn't have put a new battery in it last winter. So, very little money would have been spent on this vehicle in repair costs for the next two years that I owned it. Certainly more than the new vehicle (which is under warranty), however, I was going to avoid any additional costs.
There is also the fact that we are stealing from Peter to pay Paul. Fewer people in that 1 to 2 year time frame will be getting new cars, because they are taking advantage of this program. The hope is of course that the economy will be better off then and will be able to take a downturn of 5% in the new car business for 18 months.
It is all a numbers game when you get down to it. I will have less money to spend in the immediate future, however, in the long run, I will have more. The car companies have more money now, but less in future. Of course local governments are the biggest winners along with banks. With sales tax on the vehicle as well as license and ownership taxes, my local governments are going to be seeing some decent increases. Once again, less money for me, but more money for my local government who will perhaps be able to keep a few more people employed. And, of course, the lenders will be seeing more activity and more incoming rolling in. Maybe they keep a branch open. And who knows - since the teller at that branch has an older Sebring that doesn't qualify for the program, she will be keeping her car. And since she has kept her job at the bank, because so many people got loans, she will be able to take that car in and get the timing belt and water pump replaced according to the maintenance schedule on her car. Who knows - she may come into your shop, and that $800 dollar ticket will be yours. Without her job, she would have let that maintenance lapse.
It will be hard to tell the total outcome of this program. It is getting money out of people's pockets and moving it around the economy.
ford nut
Local nut case
Ahh Fox do you doubt me
If the right guy is around they will get pulled....if they can.
Im not so sure they can.
How can you be so sure?
I know they are gone at the pick and pull within days of hitting the lot.
No yard man knows the worth of every part....thats why they have pick and pulls.
These "clunkers" can't go there.
http://www.cars.gov/faq#category-14
"The CARS Act requires that the trade-in vehicle be crushed or shredded so that it will not be resold for use in the United States or elsewhere as an automobile. The entity crushing or shredding the vehicles in this manner will be allowed to sell some parts of the vehicle prior to crushing or shredding it, but these parts cannot include the engine or the drive train."
What are the "some parts"?
How do they know what to take off of every "clunker"?
luxuryrules
Dedicated LVC Member
Guys, it's pretty simple. The intent of this program is to reduce the number of vehicles on the road that get too poor fuel economy and pollute too much. To that extent, they are doing it - these vehicles must be removed from service and drivetrains must be unusable, otherwise that defeats the purpose of the program.
Fundamentally, it is optional. Nobody is being forced to trade in their clunkers, but the public response has been overwhelmingly positive. People are more than happy to trade in their 15mpg Tahoes for 30mpg Camries. Are there innocent victims here? You bet - the infintismally small percentage of the population that uses junkyards for picking drivetrain parts for hot rods. Unfortunately, that's just the cost of doing this. For me, if I was building a hot rod, I would be doing it right: buy a crate motor, that way I can make serious power and get more than 12mpg.
Fundamentally, it is optional. Nobody is being forced to trade in their clunkers, but the public response has been overwhelmingly positive. People are more than happy to trade in their 15mpg Tahoes for 30mpg Camries. Are there innocent victims here? You bet - the infintismally small percentage of the population that uses junkyards for picking drivetrain parts for hot rods. Unfortunately, that's just the cost of doing this. For me, if I was building a hot rod, I would be doing it right: buy a crate motor, that way I can make serious power and get more than 12mpg.
I have a friend who runs high 11's on street tires in an s10 blazer, he works at u wrench it and even the tires came from the boneyard. So I beg to differ that you cant make serious power from the boneyard. :shifty:
luxuryrules
Dedicated LVC Member
I never said you couldn't, I just said very few people do it
One of the Power Tour guys we chill with has an SN95 Mustang that he built from scrapyard stuff. He was autocrossing on par with the Corvette boys in a car that was less than $1200 all told. One heck of a build, I'll tell you that. Fun project too.Around me, all people ever use scrapyards for are body panels and trim pieces. Wheels, stereos, etc, but realistically that's it.
If I'm putting in wrench time, I'd rather use new parts. But that's just me.
ford nut
Local nut case
I understand the idea behind the program, its is just a bad idea to take good stuff and just destroy it.
The engine, trans, rearend for this car were from the junk yard.
The front end is a camaro subframe....from the junkyard.
The front end on this rod is a Torsion-Bar Suspension from the junkyard.
The rear is from the junk yard so is the trans....and the seats.
Don't kid yourself....these idiots who wrote this CFC program would love to shut down the "junkyards".
Its nothing new....they have been trying for years.
You want to build from catalogs?
I hope you have some deep pockets.
The engine, trans, rearend for this car were from the junk yard.
The front end is a camaro subframe....from the junkyard.
The front end on this rod is a Torsion-Bar Suspension from the junkyard.
The rear is from the junk yard so is the trans....and the seats.
Don't kid yourself....these idiots who wrote this CFC program would love to shut down the "junkyards".
Its nothing new....they have been trying for years.
You want to build from catalogs?
I hope you have some deep pockets.
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Markviiiedrea
Speed Bump
This is all just a temporary fix for the auto industry (which the government owns half of now).
So what now? August will have a sales boom and for the next 2 years the industry will still be takeing a big dump.
Now the people that can afford the new cars with this program probable have one by now so future sales are going to be even worse for all the car manufactures.
Not to mention there going to raise in state and federal tax’s to cover their ass in this thing. It’s a band aid on a head wound. I agree with fordnut, me and about 100 other people I know rely on junk yards to keep there sh!t running.
Plus what is the "carbon footprint" to produce all these extra new cars and transport them/ destroy the old cars and transport them? How is giving people cars that get 5-10+mpg better help the environment went manufacturing and transportation cost are going up.
This program is as useful as a foot ball bat.
Shall I keep going........
So what now? August will have a sales boom and for the next 2 years the industry will still be takeing a big dump.
Now the people that can afford the new cars with this program probable have one by now so future sales are going to be even worse for all the car manufactures.
Not to mention there going to raise in state and federal tax’s to cover their ass in this thing. It’s a band aid on a head wound. I agree with fordnut, me and about 100 other people I know rely on junk yards to keep there sh!t running.
Plus what is the "carbon footprint" to produce all these extra new cars and transport them/ destroy the old cars and transport them? How is giving people cars that get 5-10+mpg better help the environment went manufacturing and transportation cost are going up.
This program is as useful as a foot ball bat.
Shall I keep going........
slowmkviii
Dedicated LVC Member
if this program was truly about getting people to buy cars that get better MPG then why cant you buy a used car
cause I know my finances and I know that a brand new car is out of my budget and I am going to need a winter car soon if I could get a used car I might have upgraded my gas guzzling Town car to a newer less gas guzzling town car
cause I know my finances and I know that a brand new car is out of my budget and I am going to need a winter car soon if I could get a used car I might have upgraded my gas guzzling Town car to a newer less gas guzzling town car
cadillackman
Dedicated LVC Member
^^^ I agree 10,000% If $4,500 is the most you can expect to get for your trade, a new car of any sort is likely out of your ballpark.
Well, I keep my cars usually around 10 years - and I never get anywhere near $4,500 in trade... I would imagine there are lots of people who trade in vehicles all the time that are worth less than $4500 towards a new car. Heck the popularity of the $3,000 push, pull or drag it in promotions seems to indicate that even getting $3,000 for a trade in is worth it for a lot of people.
In this case - with the rebates from GM, supplier discount (it pays to be in the car business), a strange rebate from USAA-my bank, and the clunker - a new GM AWD out the door, fully warrantied for 6 years, with taxes and fees - less than $15,000.
However, the senate is looking at adding a used car option -
luxuryrules
Dedicated LVC Member
Eh, no worries. The junkyards still benefit from this program because they're getting a s***-ton of inventory thrown their way. Minus the engine that gets destroyed, they can still keep the rest of the car there to sell the trim pieces, wheels, body panels, transmissions, rear ends, etc. The only limiting factor is space in the junkyard to park all the new inventory.
I do alright
V-Tally
Dedicated LVC Member
wait what about the peope who have some credit, have a car that meets the criteria, and trade it in for a new car they can barey afford. what happens to the industry when they default? I'm pretty sure the dealer doesen't care who they sell the car too, as ong as they can get them financed. How much has the American public really learned from the housing crash? do you think that the people who tend to make those mistakes won't make them again? give most kids the chance to trade in a beat up explorer they got for a first car for a sparkly new car, and (as long as they are approved by any bank) they will jump at the chance.
And they wouldn't have had bad loans without the clunker?
The difference in gas alone for 12,000 miles on that clunker at 14 mpg to a new car that gets around 28 mpg is $1,200 a year (and that is assuming gas at $2.75) - throw in a couple of repairs that total $500 to the clunker and a set of new tires (no repairs on the new car, under warranty) you are up to $2,000 - already you are saving $166 a month - on many cars right now that is a car payment. I realize your registration will be higher, and maybe the insurance (although mine wasn't hardly any higher, some of those clunkers are rated pretty high for insurance), but the bottom line outlay by people isn't going to be as much as you think, often less than $50 a month.
Credit is incredibly tight right now - banks aren't loaning unless they are really sure they are getting the money back... My credit score is over 800 and when I got the loan for the car (didn't need it, but at under 3% I can make more money elsewhere ) they actually asked for my bank references, weird.
There will be bad loans, there will be good loans. The real loans to watch now are all those student loans... If you graduate from college, can't get a job other than starbucks, you aren't going to be able to pay those off, and there are 100s of Billions out there floating in non-collateral student loans.
However, I have read that perhaps this clunkers program should be renamed Explorers for Cash.... There is some huge number of 90s era exploders being traded in...
The difference in gas alone for 12,000 miles on that clunker at 14 mpg to a new car that gets around 28 mpg is $1,200 a year (and that is assuming gas at $2.75) - throw in a couple of repairs that total $500 to the clunker and a set of new tires (no repairs on the new car, under warranty) you are up to $2,000 - already you are saving $166 a month - on many cars right now that is a car payment. I realize your registration will be higher, and maybe the insurance (although mine wasn't hardly any higher, some of those clunkers are rated pretty high for insurance), but the bottom line outlay by people isn't going to be as much as you think, often less than $50 a month.
Credit is incredibly tight right now - banks aren't loaning unless they are really sure they are getting the money back... My credit score is over 800 and when I got the loan for the car (didn't need it, but at under 3% I can make more money elsewhere
) they actually asked for my bank references, weird.There will be bad loans, there will be good loans. The real loans to watch now are all those student loans... If you graduate from college, can't get a job other than starbucks, you aren't going to be able to pay those off, and there are 100s of Billions out there floating in non-collateral student loans.
However, I have read that perhaps this clunkers program should be renamed Explorers for Cash.... There is some huge number of 90s era exploders being traded in...
V-Tally
Dedicated LVC Member
Ok I see your point, but in order for the new vehicle to be cost effective the repairs and gas expenses have to be higher than the price to at least finance the new vehicle. Not taking into account the insurance on both vehicles, on a new camry for 60 months (4500 rebate plus 2000 down with a super low 1%apr) my yearly expense just on the loan would be 3434.52. Thats with financing 16,743.60. I would have to have full collision on the camry, versus state minimum on the Clunker approved town car. Without major repairs (6 oil changes-40 dollars a piece, 1 tire change-284 without shipping from tirerack, gas for 12000 miles @ 14 miles a gallon I would spend 2568), my clunker approved town car would cost me 3092 dollars for a year. without factoring gas into the camry that is still below the price of just the camry itself. The camry, at 22 miles per gallon city, would cost me 1636 in gas for the same amount of miles (both gas estimates incude 3 dollars a gallon). so factoring gas in the camry would cost me 5070.52. that would leave me with around 1900 dollars in savings with the clunker. That is without factoring in Insurance.
ford nut
Local nut case
Arguably, it's better for the government to buy back cars that they have deemed "undesirable" than it is for them to simply ban them or regulate them so that they are essentially banned.
But that doesn't make it right.
What is the benefit of this program?
An indirect method of getting more federally collected money from the hands of tax payers directly into those of the car manufacturers? Despite simply being unethical and unfair, it's also a waste. Most of the cars being bought are foreign, so the big three aren't even the main benefactors.
Is it for the economy? Does destroying a vehicle with another 100k serviceable miles really help the environment? Does it really help the environment when we destroy that vehicle and replace it with one that's built overseas, shipped across the ocean, and it gets an extra 2 mpg?
Hopefully, this will be a short lived program. Unlike in Europe, where it's been extended in perpetuity, I'm hoping the Republicans and responsible Democrats will kill the renewal. This one cycle of it isn't going to have much lasting impact.
And I was looking to find a replacement car for an inlaw. They live in the North East, they have three children, they aren't affluent, and they live in the mountains. I was specifically looking for 4wd Explores and Jeeps for them- because their resale values had fallen so much. Those cars are the ones being crushed.
But that doesn't make it right.
What is the benefit of this program?
An indirect method of getting more federally collected money from the hands of tax payers directly into those of the car manufacturers? Despite simply being unethical and unfair, it's also a waste. Most of the cars being bought are foreign, so the big three aren't even the main benefactors.
Is it for the economy? Does destroying a vehicle with another 100k serviceable miles really help the environment? Does it really help the environment when we destroy that vehicle and replace it with one that's built overseas, shipped across the ocean, and it gets an extra 2 mpg?
Hopefully, this will be a short lived program. Unlike in Europe, where it's been extended in perpetuity, I'm hoping the Republicans and responsible Democrats will kill the renewal. This one cycle of it isn't going to have much lasting impact.
And I was looking to find a replacement car for an inlaw. They live in the North East, they have three children, they aren't affluent, and they live in the mountains. I was specifically looking for 4wd Explores and Jeeps for them- because their resale values had fallen so much. Those cars are the ones being crushed.
V-Tally - there is no doubt about it, there is going to be money floating for this program... and bad choices will be made.
It is our right as Americans to make bad choices.
However, it looks like most people are making good choices - Ford Focus is the most purchased vehicle on the program. I would imagine those Exploder owners liked Ford and are returning to Ford and buying a decent product that gets good gas mileage.
So, take all your numbers and see what happens when you don't buy the Camry and you buy the Focus (at 16,500), the current car of choice for this program...
You finance 10,000 your gas mileage is better than the Camry, and your insurance and taxes are less as well.
You are down to $180 per month payment/2160 a year (more realistic 4% note- 60 months), the Focus mileage is 29... so fuel costs at $3.00 per/12,000 a year is $1241... total cost for a year for a Focus (without registration and insurance) is $3041 vs $2561 for your clunker... which will need repairs at least in the next 5 years, I have read the average is $500 a year.
Yes, you will spend more - I didn't say you wouldn't, it will be about $50 a month - mostly in a bigger insurance bill and license fee.
Heck, when I bought my car I found I could put the rather sexy red CTS that was sitting next to mine on the program too... That would have been foolish, but I am sure there will people who do it.
The program isn't perfect, but, I think it will work to get some clunkers off the road, some money moving in the economy, a 'blip' less in foreign oil purchases. As far as stimulus money goes - I feel better about this program than I do about giving more money to AIG (I believe 60 times the amount of money went to AIG - they have 170 billion, and they want more...)
It is our right as Americans to make bad choices.
However, it looks like most people are making good choices - Ford Focus is the most purchased vehicle on the program. I would imagine those Exploder owners liked Ford and are returning to Ford and buying a decent product that gets good gas mileage.
So, take all your numbers and see what happens when you don't buy the Camry and you buy the Focus (at 16,500), the current car of choice for this program...
You finance 10,000 your gas mileage is better than the Camry, and your insurance and taxes are less as well.
You are down to $180 per month payment/2160 a year (more realistic 4% note- 60 months), the Focus mileage is 29... so fuel costs at $3.00 per/12,000 a year is $1241... total cost for a year for a Focus (without registration and insurance) is $3041 vs $2561 for your clunker... which will need repairs at least in the next 5 years, I have read the average is $500 a year.
Yes, you will spend more - I didn't say you wouldn't, it will be about $50 a month - mostly in a bigger insurance bill and license fee.
Heck, when I bought my car I found I could put the rather sexy red CTS that was sitting next to mine on the program too... That would have been foolish, but I am sure there will people who do it.
The program isn't perfect, but, I think it will work to get some clunkers off the road, some money moving in the economy, a 'blip' less in foreign oil purchases. As far as stimulus money goes - I feel better about this program than I do about giving more money to AIG (I believe 60 times the amount of money went to AIG - they have 170 billion, and they want more...)
If a person is really driving a "clunker" and not merely a 10 year old SUV, they won't be able to buy a new car, even with a $4500 credit.
A clunker owner also can't sell the car to a new car buyer since you need to have owned and insured the car for a year in order to take advantage of the program. So the "clunker" owner can't benefit from the inflated used car prices either.
And since that $4500 can ONLY be applied to new car purchases, they can't use the money for a responsible used purchase either. End result, the "clunkers" wil stay on the road.
Right now, you basically have upper middle class people trading in their domestic SUVs that suffered severe depreciation looking for government money. Sort of like you.
I'm not going to do that, but I resent having my tax money being used to help supplement your past SUV purchase.
And a considerably more financed debt......
A blip in the economy- which will be followed by a dip.
So, instead of people having money to fix their homes, repair their cars, or simply put money in the bank- they're going to have another 5 figure debt.
It's not actually moving money- it's just moving money in that industry.
if this was important to the proponents of this program, we'd expand drilling domestically.
I'd rather close the door on my finger than get my penis stuck in a rat trap.... what the hell does that prove?
This isn't an either/or proposition.
We shouldn't have done either.
Correct - it isn't an either/or proposition... but, it is a comparison. We are stuck with the government's doling out money in the form of stimulus funds. I think that the economy is better served with stimulus money going to a program like this.
And as far as resenting the fact that your money is going to supplement my car purchase - I can understand that as well. I would be resentful, it is human nature.
I am resentful when multimillionaires have tax write offs that I can't even fathom and then they by a Veyron. I know people in the 8 figure income bracket that pay a smaller percentage of their income in taxes than I do (just for clarification - I am not in the 8 figure income bracket). Because they aren't paying their fair share of taxes, I am subsidizing their lifestyle.
I am able to take part in what is basically a tax credit for my current situation. Just like my mortgage write off, or my tuition write off...
The tax system has never been fair - perhaps you should work at getting people elected who will push through a flat tax.
Oh, and you stated the 'You would not do that' really? Why not? You wouldn't take advantage of the tax break? Do you have a house and a mortgage? If you do, do you not take the mortgage interest write off?
I would really be interested why you wouldn't take the tax break.
Have you not figured out that us "poor folks" votes dont matter :q:q:q:q look at bush's second term. :q:q:q:q the system it doesnt work. some one said revolution earlier I agree whole heartingly with them. so as you stated get someone elected that will push it through wont work jackassss.
V-Tally
Dedicated LVC Member
Instead of bailouts and CARS, didn't it ever occur to anyone in Gov't to give incentives to bring manufacturing back to the USA? not just money to American companies going under, Tax incentives to companies that manufacture in America. Those woud probably trickle down alot faster, and not give the impression of communism these programs seem to portray.