What Differences Are There In Antifreeze For The LS?

[LS-jsf]

What type of antifreeze/coolant do you use in your LS?

We're told to use a HOAT like Motorcraft Gold or Zerex G-05 for the LS. I'm wondering if the HOAT coolant is what is causing the plastics to not last in the LS? My Mark VIII uses the conventional green as that is what is recommended and I've never had any overheating or plastic parts problem.

It was my understanding that the 3 different types of antifreeze are used because of what parts such as a radiator is made out of like copper vs aluminum, etc. I understand that the OAT & HOAT types are longer lasting also. I know at least a couple people here are or were not using the HOAT type in their LS, even saw a post from Joe a while back saying he does/did not use it. "Prestone pre-mixed has worked well enough for me." (below)

engine coolant

I'm about to replace my leaking degas and other plastic coolant parts, and I'm thinking about using the old school green coolant instead of the Motorcraft Gold/Zerex G-05.

My question is will I do any damage to any of the metal parts while possibly trying to help the plastic parts not break down as quickly. (If that is in fact the problem) Any knowledge or thoughts on this subject would be much appreciated.

 

[joegr]

I doubt that you are going to increase the life of the plastic parts. That said, anything safe for aluminum and mixed with distilled water should be okay.

I don't know if the plastic in your Mark is a different material or not, but I do believe that the Mark has a lower operating temperature, and that could be the main difference.

 

[LS-jsf]

What is the operating temperature of the LS? I'll have to research what it is for the Mark VIII.

Is there a reason you don't use HOAT coolant in your LS Joe, or do you now?

I doubt that you are going to increase the life of the plastic parts. That said, anything safe for aluminum and mixed with distilled water should be okay.

I don't know if the plastic in your Mark is a different material or not, but I do believe that the Mark has a lower operating temperature, and that could be the main difference.

 

[joegr]

I use the universal long-life premix because it meets specs for all the vehicles that I have. No need to keep up with different coolants for different cars. Note that LSes came with different factory coolants (green or gold), seemingly at random. My 04 had one, and the 06 the other (originally). Original plastic life was pretty much the same for both.

 

[LS-jsf]

That's interesting. I've read some things where some say to stay away from any 'universal' coolant. Do you happen to know what the operating temperature of a LS is?

 

[TooManyToys]

For me it depends on the time of year and what I'm doing. Winter highway for an hour at 65mph and I'm running around 195F. Summertime with 95F ambient, air on, new T/S and radiator it's in the 225F range for the same conditions.

My understanding is the Ford Gold/G-05 was switched over universally across the Ford and Lincoln lines in 2003. I saw that when going a 2001 to 2003 LS and a 2001 to 2003 Superduty. On the Ford diesels it doesn't like going to 100k as it gels up the oil to coolant heat exchangers, so many of us go to over non-silicate coolants geared for longer life in HD diesel applications. But one thing learned from the diesel vehicles and also told to me by a packaging engineer at a local bottling factory for coolants, don't mix G-05 with other coolants as it likes to gel. They apparently learned to go through a more stringent flushing of the bottling equipment when they switch bottling around G-05.

So if you flip the only warning I would have is to do a few water full flushes before the changeover, remembering that a dump of coolant only drains about 50% out, and a water add then flush brings the concentrate down but not out.

 

[LS-jsf]

Yes, I've seen photos of what mixing the two can do, it's not pretty for sure. It does turn it into a gel.

 

[BCA]

FWIW, my '04 (December '03 build date) has always had the green coolant in it. I had the system flushed at 45k miles and I'm currently at 130k. I recently had to replace all the plastic cooling system parts because of them cracking so I'm with Joe as it's more likely an age thing than the type of coolant used.

 

[LS-jsf]

Joe said it may be more of a operating temperature issue.

My Mark VIII is 6 yrs older than your LS, has more miles (147k) on it and it doesn't have plastic problems. Assuming Lincoln didn't change the formulation of the plastic (which I doubt they did) between the Mark VIII & LS then it could very well be a heat issue. If the LS runs at a higher operating temperature, heat could be the cause, heat is a killer of all things. I don't know what the operating temperature difference between the two models is, assuming there is a difference. If no difference then what, Lincoln just cheaped out and used a different plastic?

FWIW, my '04 (December '03 build date) has always had the green coolant in it. I had the system flushed at 45k miles and I'm currently at 130k. I recently had to replace all the plastic cooling system parts because of them cracking so I'm with Joe as it's more likely an age thing than the type of coolant used.

 

[AmsterDutch]

I've used Green 50/50 premixed in my 2001 LS never had any problems with cracked plastic and temp gauge is always running in middle where it should be antifreeze is antifreeze the Gold I heard is better protection for high thermal running engines but I will continue using green to tell you the truth I think my over-flow resovour even has the word gold on the cold fill mark but green has worked great so far.

 

[joegr]

That's interesting. I've read some things where some say to stay away from any 'universal' coolant. Do you happen to know what the operating temperature of a LS is?

By my experience it seems to be trying for 200 F, but it doesn't go to maximum cooling till about 230 or over. My temperature theory comes somewhat from BMW. My BMW is just a bad on the plastic parts (worse actually, no failsafe cooling), but I have heard claims that on the European ones the plastic lasts longer. Supposedly, the European ones run cooler (something about MPG/emissions requirements in the US causing them to run the engines warmer.) Note that in this case, the PCM can adjust when the thermostat opens via a small electric heater on the thermostat.

 

[Ripco]

Joe said it may be more of a operating temperature issue.

My Mark VIII is 6 yrs older than your LS, has more miles (147k) on it and it doesn't have plastic problems.

I don't think it has plastic problems because except for the overflow bottle (which I'm not even sure the degas on the LS is the same thing), everything else in the cooling system is old school rubber and or metal.

I just got rid of my 97 Mark (bought new in Jan of 98) and will grant you one thing, I never had a problem with the cooling system at all (except for the blend door) and in all that time only changed the antifreeze once around the 10 year mark. No leaks, no overheating.

I don't think it's a fair comparison, a car with one plastic part to one that is nearly all plastic.

 

[LS-jsf]

A fair comparision? My point all along is that the LS plastic parts should have been metal, not plastic. Thank you for helping me make my point.

Yes, most Mark's had a blend door problem.

The degas bottle has been a big part of the LS plastic failure. As you mentioned, your Mark never had a degas problem, and I have 2 Lincolns sitting in the garage right now, and one has a leaking degas bottle...and it's not the Mark VIII. So why do most LS's have degas failure problems? Either as Joe said it may be a heat issue if the operating temperature is higher in the LS than the Mark. (I don't know what if any difference the temps actually are) Or maybe it has something to do with the chemical make-up of the different coolant's (some may disagree with that) or they saved 50 cents and made a cheaper plastic degas bottle for the LS compared to the plastic degas bottle of the Mark VIII.

Either way, if Lincoln had done things correctly over the 7 year lifespan of the LS, we wouldn't have to even be having this conversation.

I don't think it has plastic problems because except for the overflow bottle (which I'm not even sure the degas on the LS is the same thing), everything else in the cooling system is old school rubber and or metal.

I just got rid of my 97 Mark (bought new in Jan of 98) and will grant you one thing, I never had a problem with the cooling system at all (except for the blend door) and in all that time only changed the antifreeze once around the 10 year mark. No leaks, no overheating.

I don't think it's a fair comparison, a car with one plastic part to one that is nearly all plastic.

 

[RigsLS]

I don't think it has plastic problems because except for the overflow bottle (which I'm not even sure the degas on the LS is the same thing), everything else in the cooling system is old school rubber and or metal.

In an LS ? Sure about that are you?

EDIT: just noted that you were referring to your Mark VIII, I think. Nvm

 

[RigsLS]

Either way, if Lincoln had done things correctly over the 7 year lifespan of the LS, we wouldn't have ....

They did and this we already explained to you. As with most to all automakers they went to plastics for several reasons. Doesn't make it right that it doesn't last but it is what it is. Thought we covered this in another thread just this past week.

Don't mean to be rude about it but rather then harp on this all plastics cooling system, coolant or OEM parts are over priced, why not just get it over with and rebuild it completely and be done with it already. Do it right, use all OEM and be good for another 100k mi.

You're not going to solve this issue unless you are prepared to fab everything out of aluminum and then even so you may run into other problems.

Don't take it personally again, just rebuild it and move on. We all know this issue with this car. It's well documented on this forum, dating back many years and many members.

If you have a real beef with it why not call Ford and express your frustrations to them directly.

Sorry but you just go on about it ... just rebuild it ... or sell the LS.

It's about 800 in parts and your own labor and you'd not have to worry about it any longer.

 

[LS-jsf]

Rigs, I'm aware of everything you mentioned and I understand you're in Canada, but in the USA we have a saying that we're a free country and allowed freedom of speech. lol This is a blog where people 'harp' about things afterall. I'm not being rude either, but if this thread bothers you that a couple of us were still talking about it, just move on to another thread. I don't think it's mandatory you have to comment on every thread. Just do the same as when you don't like what's on a TV channel, just change the channel.

I've always understood that I'm going to have to replace all of the plastic, I think I've spoke about that many times already and know that's what I have to do. I'm not going to fab anything out or call Ford, what good could that possibly do. C'mon now Rigs, be nice.

As I've mentioned here before, I'm not a big DIYer, limited what I can do. So even though I bought the LS right a few months ago, then had to put a new tranny in it, A/C, PS, coils/plugs soon and now all the coolant parts, I would lose my ass on the car even if I wanted to sell it. So it always was the plan to fix it correctly and drive it. And yes I've expressed my thoughts about being very pissed that all of this has happened on a car that had 48k miles and wasn't abused by the original owner. I think most people would feel the same way.

I've read many of the past posts and the subject may be well documented, but that has been only to replace all the plastic, buy only OEM parts and just accept it is what it is. Don't take it personal again, but that isn't me. I'm not a 'it is what it is' person, never have been and never will be. I try and understand why things happen the way they do and if you were to hear me out correctly, that's what I've been speaking about most of the time. You may think I'm just bitching about something I can't change, but nothing could be further from the truth. (Yes I've expressed my thoughts on being (in my mind) ripped off by over priced OEM parts)

I enjoy picking the brains of people who have more knowledge about a certain subject than I do, that makes me more knowledgeable. And yes some things were said on another thread about why the change to plastic, but that doesn't mean that everything was answered that I was trying to figure out, so I had a thought that maybe the antifreeze had something to do with the plastic issue, so I asked the people on the blog for their thoughts. Isn't that one of the main reasons it's here? So until I get a complete answer to a question I'm asking, I will continue to 'go on about it,' that's just me.

The reason I haven't got around to fixing the LS right away is we just went through a record 25 days in a row of 105 degrees or hotter including a 117 day, (day 26 was 104) and the next 5 days will be 107-110, so I haven't been moving around as quickly as normal. lol

Again nothing personal, as you add much help/knowledge to this blog. You are one of the Kings on here, (justifiability so) but without some of us peasants here also you would be kind of lonely in that big castle just talking to yourself and another King and a Prince or two. You don't have to agree with someone, but let us little people speak freely also.

They did and this we already explained to you. As with most to all automakers they went to plastics for several reasons. Doesn't make it right that it doesn't last but it is what it is. Thought we covered this in another thread just this past week.

Don't mean to be rude about it but rather then harp on this all plastics cooling system, coolant or OEM parts are over priced, why not just get it over with and rebuild it completely and be done with it already. Do it right, use all OEM and be good for another 100k mi.

You're not going to solve this issue unless you are prepared to fab everything out of aluminum and then even so you may run into other problems.

Don't take it personally again, just rebuild it and move on. We all know this issue with this car. It's well documented on this forum, dating back many years and many members.

If you have a real beef with it why not call Ford and express your frustrations to them directly.

Sorry but you just go on about it ... just rebuild it ... or sell the LS.

It's about 800 in parts and your own labor and you'd not have to worry about it any longer.

 

[RigsLS]

Jsf, it's known as a forum, not a blog. Pointless but so was country of origin related to freedom of speech. No need to instruct me where to post or not. Do hope to see some 'happy' success type contributions from you in the near future. All this negative complaining about the LS ailing plastic cooling system has been done a thousand times over already. Gets old quickly. Not much education in it really.

Same old same old, rebuild it and be done. Complaining solves nothing.

 

[RigsLS]

You are one of the Kings on here, (justifiability so) but without some of us peasants here also you would be kind of lonely in that big castle just talking to yourself and another King and a Prince or two. You don't have to agree with someone, but let us little people speak freely also

Rather inappropriate statement we could have done without I'm sure.

 

[LS-jsf]

My bad it is a forum, not a blog, but my point is still the same. For the record, I never said the freedom of speech started in the USA, I mentioned it's kind of considered a big deal here and I was using it in jest with you.

If there is no need to instruct you where to post, the same goes for you for what I choose to write about, fair is fair.

You don't hear what I'm actually saying sometimes, not sure if it's my fault or yours. I'm not complaining (just speaking the truth about something happening in my world) but I guess it's pointless for me to continue to remind you of that. I'm looking for answers to (my) unanswered questions. If something has been spoken about a 'thousand times' on here, you have to remember that I haven't been on here for many years as you have, I've been here just a few months. I do try and search out answers first, but I'm not always able to find what I'm searching for or at least all of the answer, so then I ask my question to the forum. Where it goes from there depends on what people contributing have to say.

I was hoping that all of the time I spend almost everyday here listing low mileage LS's from around the country does bring a little happiness to this forum. If it doesn't than there is no point in me continuing it, there are other things I could be doing with my time. I don't have the mechanical knowledge that someone such as yourself has, so I can not contribute here in the same way you do. I am trying to give back in a way that I'm able to.

As far as 'happy' posts about my LS, I would love nothing better than to have been able to do just that. As soon as it quits breaking down every couple thousand miles, (I'm not complaining, it's just the fact) I hope to then be able to write some MUCH 'happier' posts.

Jsf, it's known as a forum, not a blog. Pointless but so was country of origin related to freedom of speech. No need to instruct me where to post or not. Do hope to see some 'happy' success type contributions from you in the near future. All this negative complaining about the LS ailing plastic cooling system has been done a thousand times over already. Gets old quickly. Not much education in it really.

Same old same old, rebuild it and be done. Complaining solves nothing.

 

[1LoudLS]

yeah yeah, there were tons of sh!t decisions made during the design of the LS. we get that. however complaining about the ones that were universally made to pretty much every car due to the progressing of automotive design doesn't really help. I for one would not give a single flying f@&$ about replacing the cooling system parts once every decade on a luxury car and if any design changes would have been made, I'd way rather see an option for a locking rear end, or a blown version, or a manual V8, or bigger brakes...


also I'd way rather change out the entire cooing system than replacing compressors or airbags(which when they were available, a single one would almost cost as much as ALL of the LS's cooling parts.)

 

[LS-jsf]

Yeah yeah, I'm glad you get that.

yeah yeah, there were tons of sh!t decisions made during the design of the LS. we get that. however complaining about the ones that were universally made to pretty much every car due to the progressing of automotive design doesn't really help. I for one would not give a single flying f@&$ about replacing the cooling system parts once every decade on a luxury car and if any design changes would have been made, I'd way rather see an option for a locking rear end, or a blown version, or a manual V8, or bigger brakes...


also I'd way rather change out the entire cooing system than replacing compressors or airbags(which when they were available, a single one would almost cost as much as ALL of the LS's cooling parts.)

 

[RigsLS]

Jsf,
I'll have to get back to you, I'm clocking big miles on time sensitive load right now.

Really need to leave this left n right field verbage out of the equation of this conversation. Pollutes the discussed subject.

 

[joegr]

yeah yeah, there were tons of sh!t decisions made during the design of the LS. we get that. however complaining about the ones that were universally made to pretty much every car due to the progressing of automotive design doesn't really help. ...

This! Could we maybe post this and a few of the rants in a sticky and then agree that we don't need to keep bringing it up over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again...

 

[LS-jsf]

Nope, no need to Rigs.

I'll keep this simple. If someone responds to something I've said, I respond back, quite simple actually.

But I guess some on here get their feelings hurt if something is said negative, but truthful about the LS. It's a car, not your child.

Take this thread for example. I started it with a simple thought about is it possible that certain antifreeze may be the cause of the plastic problem, just a question to see what others thought. Joe brought up that it may be the operating temperature. Great thought, let's expand on that a bit.

But then someone posts (post #8) he agrees with Joe that it is age, not the coolant.

Joe didn't say that in this thread, so I corrected (post #9) that mis-statement.

Then Joe comes back (post #11) and makes some good points again about the operating temperature issue.

Then in (post #12) someone says that it's not a fair comparision because the Mark has one plastic part (degas) and the LS many plastic parts.

I then thank him (Post #13) for helping me make my earlier point (another thread) that IN MY OPINION the parts should not be made of plastic. Again, just MY OPINION. Then I asked why the plastic degas in the Mark VIII didn't have the same issue that they did in the LS. It's hopefully made of the same plastic material, so why the big problem? Back to Joe's thought maybe it's the operating temperature, and who knows, maybe even my thought of the different coolant. But Joe's responce is probably more accurate.

Then someone decides to give me 'advice' (post #15) on what I should do with my car and that he's basically tired of me 'complaining.' He says 'not too be rude' & 'don't take it personally again.' If you need to say that, then maybe you're doing that. Just a thought.

I've explained myself quite well on here but the powers that be for whatever reason just prefer to pick out the sentence or two that they want to comment on, and leave eveything else I said out of the conversation. Pretty easy to cherry pick things and leave the rest like it didn't exist. Sorry but I prefer to talk about the whole subject.

Again, I'll keep this simple. If you want this subject/thread to die, then let it die. I'm done with it. I started this thread and I'll gladly end it. But since I live in Las Vegas I think I'll run down to a casino and make a large bet that someone (and I know who) just won't let it die. If it's not left to die as everyone claims they want and someone comments back to me again, then it's obvious that someone was lying and they enjoy stirring it up. And I will respond back, promise. I've been very respectful with my responces, but it will now go back exactly the way it comes to me. As someone so wisely said on another thread...I'm not in the mood.

(On my way to the casino to place that bet)

Jsf,
I'll have to get back to you, I'm clocking big miles on time sensitive load right now.

Really need to leave this left n right field verbage out of the equation of this conversation. Pollutes the discussed subject.

 

[LS-jsf]

I guess that's now up to everyone else. I personally want it to be over, we'll see. tick...tick...tick

This! Could we maybe post this and a few of the rants in a sticky and then agree that we don't need to keep bringing it up over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again...