which gun should I get next?

[danny_holtermann]

frog, why would you not own an xdm???

 

[Frogman]

I have an aversion to the Glock style trigger safety.

I realize the XD's have the 1911 style grip safety in addition to the trigger safety, but I just never cared for the feel of the Glock/XD trigger. Since I'm an "old dog", it just feels... weird to me.

Besides, I'll stick to the platform that works well for me... and it ain't the XD/Glock.

 

[LaserSVT]

Frog was around when the first 1911 was being designed. Some say he had a hand in it and is why he prefers that style over modern versions.

 

[cammerfe]

Frog was around when the first 1911 was being designed. Some say he had a hand in it and is why he prefers that style over modern versions.

Most 'modern versions' are a wonderful answer
to an unasked question. A 1911 simply does it all.

KS

 

[chestnut101]

Plastic guns like Plastic cars have no soul

 

[94m5]

Ahem......


Frog does'nt use 1911s.........


You amatures....

 

[94m5]

If I had my way, I would be using a 1936 Model Mark7 16/50.


Look it up.

A free cookie to the person that posts the stats......

 

[Frogman]

Frog was around when the first 1911 was being designed. Some say he had a hand in it and is why he prefers that style over modern versions.

No... Not quite. While I have several 1911 designs, I don't "prefer" them over the "modern" stuff.

Most 'modern versions' are a wonderful answer
to an unasked question. A 1911 simply does it all.

KS

Does a 1911 pierce Level IIIA Body armor at 50 yards?
Does a 1911 have a 20+ Round capacity? No?
Does the 1911 have such little recoil that makes a 9mm feel like a hand cannon? No?

I could go on, but you get the idea... The 1911, while a very good design, simply does not do it all. Sorry.

Ahem......


Frog does'nt use 1911s.........


You amatures....

This is true.

If I had my way, I would be using a 1936 Model Mark7 16/50.


Look it up.

A free cookie to the person that posts the stats......

Yes, like you could CCW that Mark 7. :lol: Ano no, he's not talking about the "Mark VII"

 

[LaserSVT]

Isnt that a battleship gun?

 

[94m5]

You no can haz free cookie yet......

 

[philly0420]

They are 66 feet long. Each gun weighs about 240,000 pounds without the breech, or 268,000 pounds with the breech. They fired projectiles weighing from 2,000 to 2,800 pounds at a maximum speed of 2,690 feet per second with a range of up to 24 miles. Each turret required a crew of 94 men to operate. Just the turret costs US$1.4 million, not the guns, the turret.

 

[topher5150]

They are 66 feet long. Each gun weighs about 240,000 pounds without the breech, or 268,000 pounds with the breech. They fired projectiles weighing from 2,000 to 2,800 pounds at a maximum speed of 2,690 feet per second with a range of up to 24 miles. Each turret required a crew of 94 men to operate. Just the turret costs US$1.4 million, not the guns, the turret.

so in other words it would be similar to launching a GEO Metro at a half mile a second

 

[94m5]

Philly gets the cookie.

And yes that's a good reference. Only there were 9 on each ship, and could each be fired 2 per minute with an average on target spread of much less than 1% of total range...

That means that at 46,000 yards range, it could effectively put 24,000 lbs of high explosive, into a target area 300 yards big, 2 per minute per gun. This was the reason we used in Korea, AND in Vietnam. And also why they were mothballed. The enemy made it a stipulation they be removed before peace talks would commence.

Also, these guns could penetrate 18" of class a armor, OR
32 feet of reinforced concrete. And were used for that very role all the way up to the gulf war. Saddam didn't know what hit em'.

 

[LaserSVT]

Philly gets the cookie.

And yes that's a good reference. Only there were 9 on each ship, and could each be fired 2 per minute with an average on target spread of much less than 1% of total range...

That means that at 46,000 yards range, it could effectively put 24,000 lbs of high explosive, into a target area 300 yards big, 2 per minute per gun. This was the reason we used in Korea, AND in Vietnam. And also why they were mothballed. The enemy made it a stipulation they be removed before peace talks would commence.

Also, these guns could penetrate 18" of class a armor, OR
32 feet of reinforced concrete. And were used for that very role all the way up to the gulf war. Saddam didn't know what hit em'.

Thats why I asked if you were referring to a battleship gun. I was confused since this thread was about personel fire arms. :lol:

I wants a keewkie neow!!!!! *cries*





Hey Froggy, you get that fan out yet?

 

[Frogman]

Hey Froggy, you get that fan out yet?

Sure did!

It's sitting outside on the table in the courtyard. :lol:

 

[chicken]

so in other words it would be similar to launching a GEO Metro at a half mile a second

.....id like to see that some day


KA-BOOOOM and a geo flies through the air

 

[tireman]

a fun to shoot gun

one rifle I really enjoy shooting is the old .22 pump that looks like the old carnival shooting gallery guns. I have one with a walnut stock. You just load up the tube with shells and start shooting, lots of fun, almost no recoil. Has a great little pinging sound when fired. Good for cans, bottles, squirrels, etc.

 

[cammerfe]

Reality

Does a 1911 pierce Level IIIA Body armor at 50 yards?
Does a 1911 have a 20+ Round capacity? No?
Does the 1911 have such little recoil that makes a 9mm feel like a hand cannon? No?

I could go on, but you get the idea... The 1911, while a very good design, simply does not do it all. Sorry.

Let me amend that---
The 1911 does everything that needs to be done.

1. No handgun used for self-protection is likely to pierce IIIA even at close range
2. Since I carry two eight-round spare magazines, I have 24 rounds available in case there's an extended shootout. Or, I could use the 50-round drum if I were to find it to be necessary. Extended capacity is an excellent example of the answer to an unasked question.
3. Recoil, under 'real' conditions is un-noticeable. It's only an item of contention during practice.

KS

 

[SoonerLS]

one rifle I really enjoy shooting is the old .22 pump that looks like the old carnival shooting gallery guns.

Sounds like you're talking about the Winchester Model 62/62a "Gallery Gun" and knock-offs of it, or possibly the Winchester 1890 (the 1890 has an octagonal barrel; the Model 62s have round barrels). My dad has my 62, and it's a tremendously fun plinker.

 

[SoonerLS]

Does a 1911 pierce Level IIIA Body armor at 50 yards?

That depends on how hard you throw it.

 

[Frogman]

Let me amend that---
The 1911 does everything that needs to be done.

1. No handgun used for self-protection is likely to pierce IIIA even at close range

Really... Look into the Ballistics and penetration characteristics of the SS190 5.7x28mm round. Now, while not exactly available to the general public, a couple of reloading companies that sell reloaded 5.7x28mm ammo can also sell a round similar to the SS190... actually, a little warmer than the 190, come to think of it. And surprisingly, it's legal to own. I don't exactly know how that works, but it is what it is.

2. Since I carry two eight-round spare magazines, I have 24 rounds available in case there's an extended shootout. Or, I could use the 50-round drum if I were to find it to be necessary. Extended capacity is an excellent example of the answer to an unasked question.

And what question is that, exactly? You're not going to bring such words as "compensating" into the conversation, are you?

I agree, if you need more than 8 rounds for self defense, you're either a bad shot or you're really in the wrong part of town. Now while this isn't a justification for carrying 41 rounds with me in civilian life, I also use the same platform I carry in the states when I'm working verseas as well. I suppose I could buy some 10 round clips (mags for others), but... why? The firearm was designed with 21 rounds in mind. It balances perfectly with 21 rounds, and a 10 rounder actually throws off the balance a bit.

3. Recoil, under 'real' conditions is un-noticeable. It's only an item of contention during practice.

KS

So you're telling me that you'll hit the same spot with a triple (or even a double) tap with say, a .45 just as easily and accurately as you would with a .22 pistol? Really, KS?

Is this why firearm manufacturers and aftermarket companies are always working on reducing the recoil their weapons produce? Because recoil is only felt during "practice"? I suppose a barrel port by say, Magnaport is useless on a .50AE Mark XIX? Incidentally, Magnaport does an excellent porting job, if anyone ever wants their barrels ported... those are the guys to go to. It turned my .50AE's from two handed hand cannons into one handed cannons. Why? Because the recoil was removed by a good 40%. They can really tame a 1911. I have no affiliation with Magnaport aside from giving them a lot of money over the years and them returning some well ported firearms back to me.

Rifles: Are you telling me that the muzzle brake industry is nothing but hog wash? The quest for a better muzzle brake that takes out the most recoil is not over... not by a long shot... no pun intended.

Have you ever shot an M107 without the muzzle brake? No? Imagine being kicked in the "teeth" by a clydesdale horse.... repeatedly. It is not a nice feeling.

Even my P90 PDW (something with little kick to begin with) received an instant reduction in felt recoil after an old NAVY machinist friend of mine made me a nice custom muzzle brake/flash suppressor combo for it. Made it slightly louder, but eh... That's what the two 9mm rounds in my pockets are for. Ear plugs.

That depends on how hard you throw it.

Never had to throw one... A phone, once, but never a handgun. But that's another story. You can read all about it in my Memoirs.

 

[cammerfe]

1911

I'll politely submit that we've wandered quite far from the central point. That central point encircles the 'most worthwhile handgun for personal defense.'

Actually, every 1911 I own has gone through the MagNaPort process. My oldest 1911 is a Combat Commander into which I had Frank Paris install a well-fitted National Match barrel. The extra 3/4 inch of barrel was then 'ported. That was in the late '70s. And my latest Kimber Ultra CDP II has had a Bar-Sto 5" barrel installed, also with a 'porting treatment.

Little fast bullets, according to the statistics, don't do as good a job of 'stopping' as larger, somewhat slower ones do. And even the .50 AE isn't 100%. But a 1911 platform, particularly a 'chopped' 1911 is the best combination of easy carry and stopping power extant. Particularly if you make use of light weight materials where possible.

I didn't say that recoil has no effect. I said that it's un-noticeable. As I'm sure you're aware, adrenalin has a very salutary effect on perception. And it's a proven fact that the recoil of a .45 isn't a significant impediment to doing a doubletap or even a Mozambique.

Although I handload for every calibre I own, it's nice to be able to get high performance ammo from every corner gunshop. Some of the more exotic stuff might be hard to get ahold of on short notice.

I'll stick with the 1911.

KS

 

[Frogman]

I'll politely submit that we've wandered quite far from the central point. That central point encircles the 'most worthwhile handgun for personal defense.'

I don't believe we've wandered too far from the central point. I was merely addressing your points as to why you thing the 1911 is the best thing since sliced bread for personal defense.

Actually, every 1911 I own has gone through the MagNaPort process.

Very well. You know what I spoke of then.

Little fast bullets, according to the statistics, don't do as good a job of 'stopping' as larger, somewhat slower ones do.

I can't cite statistics... I can only cite personal real life experiences with "little bullets" and their stopping power. At least, that's what I read in a pamphlet once.

A 230 grain Federal Hydroshock 45 travels at around 850fps and has about 369 ft lbs behind it. Not bad, right? Pretty heavy bullet though...

A 185gr Cor-Bon JHP travels at what, 1200? fps (I can't quite remember) and has around 550? ft lbs behind it. Lighter bullet, and as a result more energy (obviously) behind it.

Here is where the sometimes called myth, sometimes called reality of over penetration comes into play. Sure you'll "stop" the bad guy, but who else standing behind him will you "stop"? Of course, over penetration is a myth, though... Right?

And even the .50 AE isn't 100%.

I'm sorry? I take it you've never seen a .50AE round in action? Do you know what 1600Ft lbs of energy traveling at 1,500 fps does to soft tissue? Have you seen the hole it leaves as it exits the bad guy? I have. It's not pretty.

Personally, I would never CCW a .50AE for that very reason.

But a 1911 platform, particularly a 'chopped' 1911 is the best combination of easy carry and stopping power extant. Particularly if you make use of light weight materials where possible.

A "chopped" 1911? With what, a 3 inch barrel? 4"? The damned bullet will practically fall out of that short barrel. Remember, heavy, slow moving bullet. You'd be lucky to hit the broad side of the proverbial barn at 30 feet with it.

I didn't say that recoil has no effect. I said that it's un-noticeable.
As I'm sure you're aware, adrenalin has a very salutary effect on perception.

So is getting shot. You don't really feel it after your body goes into shock. But the fact of the matter is, you're still shot. As such, recoil (noticeable or otherwise) has an effect on follow up shot placement, adrenaline or no adrenaline.

And it's a proven fact that the recoil of a .45 isn't a significant impediment to doing a doubletap or even a Mozambique.

Oh? I never read the pamphlet containing this "proof". I fancy myself a decent shooter, what with roughly 15000 to 18000 fired rounds per year, and I still have a harder time placing .45 rounds as close as possible on double taps than I do with a smaller caliber. I wonder why that is...

Although I handload for every calibre I own, it's nice to be able to get high performance ammo from every corner gunshop. Some of the more exotic stuff might be hard to get ahold of on short notice.

Define "high performance". A .45 round is far from "high performance"... even a custom reload. Sorry.

On a side note, did you know that Dillon Precision is based out of Scottsdale, AZ? I didn't know that until last week when I drove by their headquarters. Goes to show that no matter how much we may think we know about a particular subject, we don't know everything. Only what we've experienced through learning.

I'll stick with the 1911.

KS

And that's fine. I'm not against the 1911 by any means. Hell, I have one or two of them myself. I prefer the Kimber breed.

I am, however, against it being hailed as the "OMG! OMG! Bestest personal defense sidearm evah!". It does the job but it doesn't "simply do it all". Otherwise, the 1911 would be the de-facto standard for personal defense and everyone would own one.

 

[cammerfe]

.45 ACP One More Time

... I can only cite personal real life experiences with "little bullets" and their stopping power.

I had in mind the published statistics collected from all the police departments around the country. Evan Marshall---former Detroit Police Officer---reports that even a 12 gauge slug doesn't have 100% stopping power. High performance .45 ACP, .44 Mag, and several others all cluster in the high 90% range and within a point or so of each other. These are the results gleaned from hundreds of shooting reports.

...1911? With what, a 3 inch barrel? 4"? The damned bullet will practically fall out of that short barrel. Remember, heavy, slow moving bullet. You'd be lucky to hit the broad side of the proverbial barn at 30 feet with it.

Actually, regardless of barrel length, the Corbon DPX 185 with the Barnes bullet has at least a little over 1K of velocity and seems to group into less than two inches.

I fancy myself a decent shooter, what with roughly 15000 to 18000 fired rounds per year, and I still have a harder time placing .45 rounds as close as possible on double taps than I do with a smaller caliber. I wonder why that is...

Recoil, the adversary of placement, isn't dependent on bullet diameter.

Define "high performance". A .45 round is far from "high performance"... even a custom reload. Sorry.

Corbon DPX---see above.

I am, however, against it being hailed as the "OMG! OMG! Bestest personal defense sidearm evah!". It does the job but it doesn't "simply do it all". Otherwise, the 1911 would be the de-facto standard for personal defense and everyone would own one.

SWAT-type units all over the country seem to carry .45 ACP firearms regardless of what the rank-'n'-file of their departments carry. And elite military units seem to gravitate to the .45 also. I wonder why that is?

 

[SoonerLS]

And elite military units seem to gravitate to the .45 also. I wonder why that is?

I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that a standard .45ACP load is subsonic, so you don't have to carry non-standard ammo to suppress it...