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fossten

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Just heard Congressman Wiener on Keify's show on MSNBC say that if Brown wins, we need to take a step back and say, we got the message, we need to examine what we're doing.

Democrats being introspective?

Say it ain't so!:shifty:
 
AP just projected Scott Brown the winner.

Congratulations are in order and what a gift for your protest day tomorrow.

Like silvery wine in a spaceship....
Gravity all nonsense now..
 
04SCTLS said:
AP just projected Scott Brown the winner.

Congratulations are in order and what a gift for your protest day tomorrow.

Like silvery wine in a spaceship....
Gravity all nonsense now..
Click to expand...
Can I tell Obama to hug my left one? :D
 
Haha Stuart Varney on FNC just said, '...look at the SIZE of the margin, 7 points, that's huge..."

And Juan Williams looking resigned, said '...yeah that's a big margin.'

LOLZ
 
..Weiner is doing damage control.
If any of the Democrats attempt to "reflect" and "get the message"- the administration will try to destroy them.

...they're going to still try to pass the liberty destroying health care take over regardless. They still intend to pass it with 51 votes one way or another.
 
Calabrio said:
..Weiner is doing damage control.
If any of the Democrats attempt to "reflect" and "get the message"- the administration will try to destroy them.

...they're going to still try to pass the liberty destroying health care take over regardless. They still intend to pass it with 51 votes one way or another.
Click to expand...
Good luck with that. The coalitions in the House won't cooperate. Why should they commit political seppuku just to save Obama's precious little ego?

Nah, they won't do it.
 
Alinsky theory says that the Democrat party will go "all in" at this point.

The 'strategists' are starting to argue that the Democrats "have no choice" but to get health care through at all costs, if not the will certainly be defeated in '10 and '12.

And if they succeed in getting it through, coupled with the ugly forthcoming fight over illegal aliens coming soon, they'll have effectively and strategically locked in the majority of the expanding voting population for the next few generations.

The best case scenario is that the Democrats split and begin fighting amongst themselves. That'll slow things down -A LITTLE- but it's not a victory for those of us who love liberty and the constitution- it just provides an opportunity and a little more time.

And from there, we have to really stay on task and fight things legislatively and through the constitutional powers of the state.
 
fossten said:
Just heard Congressman Wiener on Keify's show on MSNBC say that if Brown wins, we need to take a step back and say, we got the message, we need to examine what we're doing.

Democrats being introspective?

Say it ain't so!:shifty:
Click to expand...

Obviously, stepping back would be smart!

It just may put a road block in front of the Republican steam roller which is warming up for November and will flatten the Democrat Party if they don't step back, take a whiff of smelling salts, and pay attention to the American people. They can start by killing the partisan, bias, and clearly corrupted health care bill.
 
Calabrio said:
Alinsky theory says that the Democrat party will go "all in" at this point.

The 'strategists' are starting to argue that the Democrats "have no choice" but to get health care through at all costs, if not the will certainly be defeated in '10 and '12.

And if they succeed in getting it through, coupled with the ugly forthcoming fight over illegal aliens coming soon, they'll have effectively and strategically locked in the majority of the expanding voting population for the next few generations.

The best case scenario is that the Democrats split and begin fighting amongst themselves. That'll slow things down -A LITTLE- but it's not a victory for those of us who love liberty and the constitution- it just provides an opportunity and a little more time.

And from there, we have to really stay on task and fight things legislatively and through the constitutional powers of the state.
Click to expand...
Self preservation is a powerful instinct.

Barney Frank just said there will be a) no Cramdown in the House b) no vote in the Senate before Brown is seated c) no reconciliation and d) revision of the healthcare bill.

Obama can't twist the arms of the entire Congress. He does so at the risk of his own future. I predict Obama is NOT so pugnacious as to ignore the lessons Clinton learned. If I'm wrong, God help Obama because he will tear this country apart.
 
fossten said:
I predict Obama is NOT so pugnacious as to ignore the lessons Clinton learned. If I'm wrong, God help Obama because he will tear this country apart.
Click to expand...

I think you are wrong on that point. Obama is a true believer. However, that arm twisting is all but at the point of impossibility. NOw we will see how ugly Obama really is...
 
I might have been too nuanced in my statement.

Obama will try, but the Dems won't cooperate. If he forces it he'll sacrifice the party. He doesn't give a crap about the party, only about his own position.

I'm uncertain how far he'll push this. From a poker perspective, you have to realize you're beat and fold so you can have chips left to play another hand. Obama isn't half the poker player Slick Willy is.

The only indication that I've gotten from Obama is when he's done the 'hard pivot' at times. That indicates a willingness to abandon a present course. He also doesn't care about keeping his word. So he can spin it any way he wants, but it's not beyond him to fold on this issue. Surely at least one of his advisors remembers 1994?
 
I think this is a huge victory, and sends a clear message.
Lets not forget whose seat this was.
The champion of government health care.

Fossten is right, politicians do not commit hara-kiri.

That includes Obama.

Did I just say Fossten is right???? :shifty:
 
fossten said:
it's not beyond him to fold on this issue.
Click to expand...

You give him more credit then I do. ;)

I can see him doing a hard pivot on other issues (like gitmo and other security issues), but this is his is signature legislation; it gives him THE ideological win he so badly wants. He would be remembered fondly by all his elitist pals. I don't think he has it in him to suck it down on this. That takes a humility which is beyond him in my estimation.

Hopefully I am wrong. But I'm not gonna bet against his ego. ;)
 
I think it depends on if he thinks Nancy can push the Senate's bill through the House. There will be many, many phone calls and meetings in the next few days, and then there will be a better idea on how to proceed.

I doubt if Nancy can push the Senate bill (meaning exactly as written) through the House. All their jobs are on the line in 9 months... So, will Obama embrace Clinton type politics. I don't know, he doesn't seem like the same sort of man.
 
Maybe Obama kicks a field goal - you know, the Senate passes a 1-page bill with the following text:

We, the Senate of the United States of America, resolve to look further into the problems associated with our healthcare system.
Click to expand...

And Obama can say, THERE - I DID IT! and sign it into law.
 
19% registered Republicans in Mass.
52% of the vote.

Moderate Dem: "Uh, Houston, we have a problem."
 
foxpaws said:
I think it depends on if he thinks Nancy can push the Senate's bill through the House. There will be many, many phone calls and meetings in the next few days, and then there will be a better idea on how to proceed.

I doubt if Nancy can push the Senate bill (meaning exactly as written) through the House. All their jobs are on the line in 9 months... So, will Obama embrace Clinton type politics. I don't know, he doesn't seem like the same sort of man.
Click to expand...
So fox, by this statement are you acknowledging that the Scott Brown victory is a referendum on Obamacare?
 
A referendum? Perhaps. It is a difficult call - Massachusetts has basically 'nationalized' healthcare on a state level, and its program is often used as a comparable to the national plan. So, it is an odd duck. Why vote in a national plan when you already have the plan at a state level? They have 'Obamacare' in some form already.

I think the rest of the nation sees this as a wake up call for health care reform, and how to proceed, but I wonder if it really is that way at the local level in Massachusetts or maybe they just forgot they already have the healthcare program in place and were caught up by the rhetoric. /s/s/s
 
The Progressive strategists have already made their case.

"If we don't move forward with Health Care, you 'moderate' Democrats will be defeated. You are already on record for having voted and you'll have wasted last year with nothing to show for it."

That's the line they are using.
I watched the coverage on MSNBC last night, that was repeated over and over and over.

The truth is-
the party leadership really doesn't care if they lose power for a cycle. Not only are they true believers in the Progressive philosophy, but if the radical changes to government go through, and they pass both the healthcare takeover AND illegal alien naturalization bills, they expect to control the government for the next few generations. Just like the black vote has been a safe Democrat vote following the "Great Society", the Democrats want to entangle the alien vote in a similar way- along with generations of native citizens dependent on government for their incomes, education, and health care.
 
foxpaws said:
A referendum? Perhaps. It is a difficult call - Massachusetts has basically 'nationalized' healthcare on a state level, and its program is often used as a comparable to the national plan. So, it is an odd duck. Why vote in a national plan when you already have the plan at a state level? They have 'Obamacare' in some form already.

I think the rest of the nation sees this as a wake up call for health care reform, and how to proceed, but I wonder if it really is that way at the local level in Massachusetts or maybe they just forgot they already have the healthcare program in place and were caught up by the rhetoric. /s/s/s
Click to expand...
What a copout. You use more words to say 'maybe' than anybody I know. :rolleyes:

Don't worry, Pelosi doesn't think so. Today she basically said this: Obviously we didn't dumb down our message enough for you idiot subjects in the Republic, but we'll change that and drum up a new fake campaign.

By the way, that was EXACTLY what she said in 2004 when the Republicans held both houses and the Presidency.
 
fossten said:
What a copout. You use more words to say 'maybe' than anybody I know. :rolleyes:

Don't worry, Pelosi doesn't think so. Today she basically said this: Obviously we didn't dumb down our message enough for you idiot subjects in the Republic, but we'll change that and drum up a new fake campaign.

By the way, that was EXACTLY what she said in 2004 when the Republicans held both houses and the Presidency.
Click to expand...

Off course I use maybe - I can't for 'certain' know what will happen in politics. I am not certain what effect that this race holds for the fall. I can say maybe at this point. Would I be surprised if Obama backed down, the dems shifted and became what the people wanted - nope. It is politics and the name of the game is to get elected first, agenda second. I think agenda at this point might well take a back seat to electability for the next few months. Perhaps as we get into summer, and the campaigns are firming up it will be more of a certainty.
 
foxpaws said:
Off course I use maybe - I can't for 'certain' know what will happen in politics. I am not certain what effect that this race holds for the fall. I can say maybe at this point. Would I be surprised if Obama backed down, the dems shifted and became what the people wanted - nope. It is politics and the name of the game is to get elected first, agenda second. I think agenda at this point might well take a back seat to electability for the next few months. Perhaps as we get into summer, and the campaigns are firming up it will be more of a certainty.
Click to expand...
Tsk tsk, fox, skimming my posts again. I didn't ask you to predict the future. I asked you to comment on whether or not you thought last night's election (PAST TENSE!) was a referendum on Obamacare.

Please read my posts more closely or stop wasting time stalling.

And as far as you not knowing for certain about the future of politics, you certainly didn't hesitate to make a solid prediction about Palin not getting the GOP nom in 2012, didja? :rolleyes:
 
Calabrio said:
The Progressive strategists have already made their case.

"If we don't move forward with Health Care, you 'moderate' Democrats will be defeated. You are already on record for having voted and you'll have wasted last year with nothing to show for it."

That's the line they are using.
I watched the coverage on MSNBC last night, that was repeated over and over and over.

The truth is-
the party leadership really doesn't care if they lose power for a cycle. Not only are they true believers in the Progressive philosophy, but if the radical changes to government go through, and they pass both the healthcare takeover AND illegal alien naturalization bills, they expect to control the government for the next few generations. Just like the black vote has been a safe Democrat vote following the "Great Society", the Democrats want to entangle the alien vote in a similar way- along with generations of native citizens dependent on government for their incomes, education, and health care.
Click to expand...
cal - so do you believe this is an inevitability? If they lose power for even the upcoming cycle, they are jeopardizing the majority for a long period of time, and really have no hope of getting in healthcare or naturalization bills within the foreseeable future. Look at the panic caused by just losing the super majority...

And the Native American vote? Is this a big block that is catered to very often? Heck, I live in the west, and that block doesn't even play out much here.
 
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