2000 LS V8 has rattling and knocking sound

[Tardelli1957]

My car had a broken tensioner which was replaced on drivers side. But the car now has a rattling and knocking sound from that side. It's not a constant rattling as it changes speed and duration. It also has a service engine light on as it runs a bit rough similar to when I replaced 2 coil packs before. The car also idles higher than normal. Anyone know what it is and how to fix it. I hope it doesn't need an engine rebuild or new valve train. This can't be the tensioner seeing that it was changed. Anyone?

http://awes.me/14HRnNJ

 

[joegr]

Well, it could be the tensioner. It could have been put in wrong, or could have been defective out of the box.
If the involved chain wasn't changed, that could be the problem. Sometimes the chain gets stretched when the tensioner fails.
If the chain jumped more than one tooth when the tensioner failed, it could be that some valves were bent.

A look at the chain and tensioner would determine if the chain is stretched or if the new tensioner is bad or was installed incorrectly.
A cylinder compression and leak-down test would show if any valves are bent or other damage was done.

It also possible that you have some mostly unrelated problem. (Mostly, in that it could be that something was disturbed or broken when the tensioner work was being done.

 

[RigsLS]

... http://awes.me/14HRnNJ

RE: your video @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6DzMbETZVM

Combination of your secondary tensioner and/or timing chain slap noise.


That noise you are hearing is the timing chain chewing the inside of the engine block.
It's stretched, it has so much play in it, it rattles, clatters and runs up side the inside of the outer wall.



~ bottom right corner of pic.

If you want the problem to go away, just keep reving it hard like that!

GLWR

 

[Tardelli1957]

So your telling me that the repair shop either didn't install the tensioner properly or the timing chain should have been changed as well. How positive are you about that.

RE: your video @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6DzMbETZVM

Combination of your secondary tensioner and/or timing chain slap noise.


That noise you are hearing is the timing chain chewing the inside of the engine block.
It's stretched, it has so much play in it, it rattles, clatters and runs up side the inside of the outer wall.



~ bottom right corner of pic.

If you want the problem to go away, just keep reving it hard like that!

GLWR

 

[SlickLS]

My car had a broken tensioner which was replaced on drivers side. But the car now has a rattling and knocking sound from that side. It's not a constant rattling as it changes speed and duration. It also has a service engine light on as it runs a bit rough similar to when I replaced 2 coil packs before. The car also idles higher than normal. Anyone know what it is and how to fix it. I hope it doesn't need an engine rebuild or new valve train. This can't be the tensioner seeing that it was changed. Anyone?



http://awes.me/14HRnNJ

Sounds like you might have a primary tensioner that is cracked, thus causing slack in the chain. The chain is eating into timing cover. Take off both valve covers & see if u can move the primary chains at all, if so then the tensioner is cracked causing slack. You shouldnt be able to move it at all. Hope this helped

 

[Tardelli1957]

Can someone tell me, how it's possible that a timing chain can get stretched. It's made of steel and I just don't see that happening

 

[RigsLS]

Without the tensioners in place the timing chain has slack as it normally should.

Timing chains...
think of all the linkages in between, each one takes a little as a mill. out of spec and combined you end up with a stretched timing chain.

There has been plenty of pics posted on here of linkages damaged and stretched. Tensioners can only take up so much slack.

Eventually there becomes so much slack in the whole thing, one good WOT, it'll simple skip a tooth on the exhaust cam.




Check out JOHNNIEBOY's ride.

Before: http://youtu.be/Iv_-tN6WBFc?t=49s <<< link to 49sec into vid.


To be repaired: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=965B7jhO-xA


After: http://youtu.be/iOYD73cCg1Q?t=31s <<< link to 31sec into vid.

 

[1LoudLS]

Can someone tell me, how it's possible that a timing chain can get stretched. It's made of steel and I just don't see that happening

well if you cant understand that one of the properties of metal is its malleability, then none of us can tell you how its possible





mal·le·a·ble
adj.
1. Capable of being shaped or formed, as by hammering or pressure: a malleable metal.



that allows it to be formed in to what ever shape we need it in. metals are flexible, they can bend, when bending they are stretching





if you pull hard enough on any chain, it will break
right before it breaks, metal stretches.
some metal stretches more than others.


any chain banging around up against other metals that its not designed to could be hitting hard enough (X thousands of times every minute for god knows how long before its repaired) to deform it is some way...

 

[chris2523]

steel is actually pretty stretchy. it can deform quite a lot without breaking.

i also had to replace the chains after the tensioner didn't fully stop the rattling.

i took one of the old chains out of the 00 V8 and set it next to a new chain from Christopher's Foreign Car Parts. the difference was obvious.

here i lined them up side by side.

here is the other end. obvious difference. its not huge, but its all it takes.

 

[RigsLS]

^ Show him the pic of the chewed up link damage when it jumped the sprocket.



Another "internal" view: (make, model & motor irrelevant)

[video=youtube;z0sQFUgtyf0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0sQFUgtyf0[/video]

 

[chris2523]

^ Show him the pic of the chewed up link damage when it jumped the sprocket

when the timing jumped on the exhaust cam, it did some damage. most notably, it split this roller.

it also stretched and damaged this link. you can see the side piece is much wider than normal, and there is a noticeable gap.

 

[Tardelli1957]

Thanks for showing me. I assume you can see where the chain is hitting the block for it to create that rattling noise.

when the timing jumped on the exhaust cam, it did some damage. most notably, it split this roller.

it also stretched and damaged this link. you can see the side piece is much wider than normal, and there is a noticeable gap.

 

[Tardelli1957]

I appreciate you guys showing me that a timing chain can stretch. But this idiot who I have as my mechanic don't know what their doing. They tell me its a rod knock yet they didn't take any bearings off. I told them to pull the engine as I decided to either rebuild it myself or get a new used engine. I have rebuilt 2 engines before but not a lincoln Ls. My question for qualified people is

A) judging from the sound in the video I posted, does someone Who is knowledgeable about this, able to tell me just from the sound, whether it is a rod knock or it's possible, or do you still feel it's the timing chain.

B) if it is a rod bearing or something to do with the connecting rod like the mechanic said, is there someone out there who has rebuilt these engines who can provide not only their input the knowledge but some videos and pictures

Much appreciated to all.

Thanks for showing me. I assume you can see where the chain is hitting the block for it to create that rattling noise.

 

[RigsLS]

... "My question for qualified people" ... "does someone Who is knowledgeable about this, able to tell me" ...

Those that have responded thus far related to your current concerns are in fact "knowledgeable and qualified" members.

... "I told them to pull the engine" ...

- rod knock, bearings ... ?!?!?!

No need to pull/rebuild the entire engine or swap it, it's a simple matter, (worse case)
of splitting the front to get into the timing chains, roller guides and tensioners.


~ write ups all over this forum on how to deal with your "rattle".

 

[Tardelli1957]

So what your saying and what everyone else is saying, is that there is no way that sound is coming from the bottom of the engine. To me the sound sounds the same as if when the tensioners broke. It is definitely coming from the top. But this Indian mechanic is either stupid or is trying to scam me out of more money. Can you please tell me again, is it possible it could be rod knock.

Those that have responded thus far related to your current concerns are in fact "knowledgeable and qualified" members.





- rod knock, bearings ... ?!?!?!

No need to pull/rebuild the entire engine or swap it, it's a simple matter, (worse case)
of splitting the front to get into the timing chains, roller guides and tensioners.


~ write ups all over this forum on how to deal with your "rattle".

 

[joegr]

I'm not there. I can't say 100% what is and isn't possible. I can tell you there are lots of reports (here and elsewhere) about timing chain/tensioner problems. I haven't seen a single one on rod knock for the 3.9.

 

[Broseph]

B) if it is a rod bearing or something to do with the connecting rod like the mechanic said, is there someone out there who has rebuilt these engines who can provide not only their input the knowledge but some videos and pictures

Much appreciated to all.

It should be fairly easy to determine the location where the sound is generating from. Most tensioner related issues will create a rattle at the valve cover/top of the engine. A mechanic's stethoscope helps to narrow down the area.

Rod knock is harder to pin point but usually is lower since the area out of spec is the connecting rod around the crank.

If rod knock is the issue and bearings are needed your're pretty much SOL, I checked when thinking about rebuilding the original 3.9 in my car that the drunk who wrecked it busted off the filter housing and ran the motor pretty dry. Long story short, I saw where the cam bore into the head but the lower engine was fine.

There are a couple different sets of bearings between the rod and crank and they are coded so you have to make sure you use the right ones since the sizes are different....at least this is what I got from Federal-Mogul (Felpro) when I spoke with them. Essentially it's not worth the time and money, not to mention other things that could be wrong.

 

[RigsLS]

So what your saying and what everyone else is saying, is that there is no way that sound is coming from the bottom of the engine. To me the sound sounds the same as if when the tensioners broke. It is definitely coming from the top. But this Indian mechanic is either stupid or is trying to scam me out of more money. Can you please tell me again, is it possible it could be rod knock.

* it's not rod knock noise

Take a very large, long screw driver, hold the handle to your ear and the end of the screw driver to the top of the engine block/valve cover where you think the noise is coming from. You'll hear through the butt-end of the screwdriver the magnified sound of the chain rattling up against the outside wall of the block.

Just BE CAREFUL with loose clothing, long hair, neck ties, hood ties, gold chains etc.....

 

[Tardelli1957]

Well it looks like everyone on this board knows more than these mechanics. As the problem was within the timing chain cover. But they needed the Pollote the engine to see this. My question now is, seeing that they pulled it out should I get it freshened up. Does anyone think that it needs new bearings etc. is it worth taking to a machine shop to get looked over. Or should I just fix the problem within the timing cover and put it back in.

* it's not rod knock noise

Take a very large, long screw driver, hold the handle to your ear and the end of the screw driver to the top of the engine block/valve cover where you think the noise is coming from. You'll hear through the butt-end of the screwdriver the magnified sound of the chain rattling up against the outside wall of the block.

Just BE CAREFUL with loose clothing, long hair, neck ties, hood ties, gold chains etc.....

 

[joegr]

Well it looks like everyone on this board knows more than these mechanics. As the problem was within the timing chain cover. But they needed the Pollote the engine to see this. My question now is, seeing that they pulled it out should I get it freshened up. Does anyone think that it needs new bearings etc. is it worth taking to a machine shop to get looked over. Or should I just fix the problem within the timing cover and put it back in.

They did not need to pull the engine to rework the timing chains, guides, and tensioners. You need to find new "mechanics."

Anyway, you can't get any parts for the bottom of the engine, so I think you can drop that idea. Do you really want these guys messing with even more of it?

 

[weeves]

I agree, probably time for a new mechanic. I can't believe they were so quick to jump the gun and determined the noise was "rod knock" when it clearly sounds like valve train/timing chain noise. Not to mention they just replaced a timing chain tensioner. BTW, did they just replace the bad tensioner and button it back up?

No real need to replace the bearings unless you check the clearances and find that they are out of spec. If your oil has a metallic sheen to it like in the video, you will need a minimum of new rod & main new bearings. If it's knocking, time for a new engine.

[video=youtube;X5yaUVo2wFI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5yaUVo2wFI[/video]

Since the engine is already out, replacing the main & rod bearings wouldn't be a bad idea if it's got high miles but no way I would let your current mechanic do the job.

 

[Tardelli1957]

Are you saying that their are no bearings that you can buy for the V8 2000 LS. I see bearings listed for the V6 2000 less engine, but I don't see anything listed for the V8. How was that possible

I agree, probably time for a new mechanic. I can't believe they were so quick to jump the gun and determined the noise was "rod knock" when it clearly sounds like valve train/timing chain noise. Not to mention they just replaced a timing chain tensioner. BTW, did they just replace the bad tensioner and button it back up?

No real need to replace the bearings unless you check the clearances and find that they are out of spec. If your oil has a metallic sheen to it like in the video, you will need a minimum of new rod & main new bearings. If it's knocking, time for a new engine.

[video=youtube;X5yaUVo2wFI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5yaUVo2wFI[/video]

Since the engine is already out, replacing the main & rod bearings wouldn't be a bad idea if it's got high miles but no way I would let your current mechanic do the job.

 

[joegr]

Are you saying that their are no bearings that you can buy for the V8 2000 LS. I see bearings listed for the V6 2000 less engine, but I don't see anything listed for the V8. How was that possible

Relatively speaking, very few 3.9s were made, and the last was made in 2006. Parts in the bottom end of the engine hardly ever fail, so they just don't seem to be available.

 

[Tardelli1957]

I appreciate all the expert opinions on here. As I said it turns out that it was the guy's on the timing chain as per what the idiot mechanic told me. This comes after they pulled the engine and already replaced the tensioner. But I need help now to decide what to do. Seen that there are no bearings you can get her bye for the 3.92 thousand LS, which I find hard to believe, can someone tell me whether they think I should just replace the timing chain and those components under the timing cover and put the engine back in, or should I rebuild the top end and give it a valve job. Is it possible that the bottom end is screwed as well or is that highly unlikely. Please give me your expert opinions.

 

[Tardelli1957]

I appreciate all the expert opinions on here. As I said it turns out that it was the guides on the timing chain as per what the idiot mechanic told me. This comes after they pulled the engine and already replaced the tensioner. But I need help now to decide what to do. Seeing that there are no bearings you can get for the3.9 2000 LS, which I still find hard to believe, can someone tell me whether they think I should just replace the timing chain and those components under the timing cover and put the engine back in, or should I rebuild the top end and give it a valve job. Is it possible that the bottom end is screwed as well or is that highly unlikely. Please give me your expert opinions as I really don't want to spend too much money or time in a 13 yr old car. I probably should have walked away from it but I guess in sentimental considering the paint is flawless.