2001 Lincoln LS8 in Virginia (757)

[RigsLS]

... can I just remove my cats and sensors period?

No!

The upstream O[SUB]2[/SUB] sensors send readings to the PCM to aid in adjusting air/fuel mixture. They help determine, in real time, if your air/fuel ratio is rich or lean. They do not directly measure the air or the fuel entering the engine but when information from oxygen sensors is coupled with information from other sources, it can be used to indirectly determine the air/fuel ratio.

The downstream sensors need to send a particular voltage reading around .5 volts constant, within a range that is acceptable, if outside of range, it will throw P0430 and P0420 instructing the PCM that the exhaust emissions are out of wack and not acceptable. In turn it will then make attempts to adjust further fuel trim and here is where your problems begin.

It's not going to work by just removing the CATs completely and zip tying the Oxygen sensors out of the way. The Engine is not going to know what to do with itself. Sure you may go a little faster on the quarter mile for a while but engine damage is surely guaranteed.


To do it properly, you would 'gut' a CAT ... as it's termed.

Hollow it out. The Upstream sensor stays put, continues to monitor the exhaust and is able to (EDIT) 'participate in altering' fuel trim as needed. Downstream sensors can either be removed and plugged or simply leave the sensor in with a disconnect at the electrical. However ... a tune is then loaded where the value on the downstream sensors for both banks are hard coded for the correct voltage reading the PCM wants to see. Usually the .5volts depending on make/model. This is known as 'Zeroing out'. It will now always read the correct voltage and thereby fools the PCM that the converters are doing their emissions functionality. As in ... we're all good on the downstream emission, no need to adjust. No CEL, Fuel millage remains.

Please note during Wide Open Throttle, this closed loop o2 sensor reading system is momentarily disabled by default. It will not attempt to make any adjustments.



Beside the part where without CAT's you are going to be driving obnoxiously around town, there is the little part of dumping contaminated crap into the environment that you and I and others need to breath in order to remain somewhat healthy. You're going to have problems passing emissions testing, thus no tags.


It's also illegal and comes with a hefty fine I'm sure. You thought it was fun getting into handcuffs trying to break into your own LS, wait till you see what they'll want to do to you when you get pulled over because of the head turning obnoxiously loud exhaust and they discover you removed the CATs completely. On a bad day, you could end up doing the weekend until the judge can deal with you on a Monday.


Anyhow ... listen Jr, you do what you gotta do, if it pleases you to dump the CATs and run around like that then by all means go for it. Whom am I to tell you different.

Also, I'm no engine expert so pardon me if I didn't get the above explained 100% correct but a little searching on the interwebs would suggest removal of CATs is an overall bad idea.

I'd be right there with ya if we were entering that LS into next weekends demolition derby ... but we are talking street legal and prolonged engine life here.



Overall it's a bad idea the way you are attempting to go about it!

Now I know you don't like when I tell you the truth much as we've discovered in the not so near past, so please spare me the backlash, I'm not in the mood nor do I give a ratzass.

Case in point: That tire that I told you wouldn't last when you put that plug in it, where clearly it was a tear near the edge as apposed to a puncture in the middle of the threads.

I recall someone loosing it ... yet here we are sitting on flats. 10-4?




You already know dumping the CATs is a bad idea, you don't need me to tell you this I'm sure.
It's not going to work and I'll give your engine 2 months max before I get to play yet again,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE


You need new CAT's if they are clogged, dumping them and tucking the O[SUB]2[/SUB] sensors out of the way is NOT the solution .... Peace Jr !!!

 

[Kid_Lyrics]

No!

The upstream O[SUB]2[/SUB] sensors sends readings to the PCM to aid in adjusting air/fuel mixture. They help determine, in real time, if your air/fuel ratio is rich or lean. They do not directly measure the air or the fuel entering the engine but when information from oxygen sensors is coupled with information from other sources, it can be used to indirectly determine the air/fuel ratio.

The downstream sensors need to send a particular voltage reading around .5 volts constant, within a range that is acceptable, if outside of range, it will throw P0430 and P0420 instructing the PCM that the exhaust emissions are out of wack and not acceptable. In turn it will then make attempts to adjust further fuel trim and here is where your problems begin.

It's not going to work by just removing the CATs completely and zip tying the Oxygen sensors out of the way. The Engine is not going to know what to do with itself. Sure you may go a little faster on the quarter mile for a while but engine damage is surely guaranteed.


To do it properly, you would 'gut' a CAT ... as it's termed.

Hollow it out. The Upstream sensor stays put, continues to monitor the exhaust and is able to alter fuel trim as needed. Downstream sensors can either be removed and plugged or simply leave the sensor in with a disconnect at the electrical. However ... a tune is then loaded where the value on the downstream sensors for both banks are hard coded for the correct voltage reading the PCM wants to see. Usually the .5volts depending on make/model. This is known as 'Zeroing out'. It will now always read the correct voltage and thereby fools the PCM that the converters are doing their emissions functionality. As in ... we're all good on the downstream emission, no need to adjust. No CEL, Fuel millage remains.

Please note during Wide Open Throttle, this closed loop sensor reading system is momentarily disabled by default. It will not attempt to make any adjustments.



Beside the part where without CAT's you are going to be driving obnoxiously around town, there is the little part of dumping contaminated crap into the environment that you and I and others need to breath in order to remain somewhat healthy. You're going to have problems passing emissions testing, thus no tags.


It's also illegal and comes with a hefty fine I'm sure. You thought it was fun getting into handcuffs trying to break into your own LS, wait till you see what they'll want to do to you when you get pulled over because of the head turning obnoxiously loud exhaust and they discover you removed the CATs completely. On a bad day, you could end up doing the weekend until the judge can deal with you on a Monday.


Anyhow ... listen Jr, you do what you gotta do, if it pleases you to dump the CATs and run around like that then by all means go for it. Whom am I to tell you different.

Also, I'm no engine expert so pardon me if I didn't get the above explained 100% correct but a little searching on the interwebs would suggest removal of CATs is an overall bad idea.

I'd be right there with ya if we were entering that LS into next weekends demolition derby ... but we are talking street legal and prolonged engine life here.



Overall it's a bad idea the way you are attempting to go about it!

Now I know you don't like when I tell you the truth much as we've discovered in the not so near past, so please spare me the lashback, I'm not in the mood nor do I give a ratzass.

Case in point: That tire that I told you wouldn't last when you put that plug in it, where clearly it was a tear near the edge as apposed to a puncture in the middle of the threads.

I recall someone loosing it ... yet here we are sitting on flats. 10-4?




You already know dumping the CATs is a bad idea, you don't need me to tell you this I'm sure.
It's not going to work and I'll give your engine 2 months max before I get to play yet again,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE


You need new CAT's if they are clogged, dumping them and tucking the O[SUB]2[/SUB] sensors out of the way is NOT the solution .... Peace Jr !!!

Well damn man. Why must you make such long-winded replies with information I already know. It's like being read a book by a grown adult while being a college graduated adult of rocket science.




I'm not keeping it this way. I either planned on gutting them and putting the sensors back in or removing them and putting a pipe up there.

OR

2. Putting them back completely, and just removing the resonators and mufflers from the rear as I've done in the past. I had no plans on keeping this set-up in existence. I just really freaking love the sound.

The fact that I'm asking questions about going around something doesn't mean I'm either going to do it or keep it as a permanent solution. I'm not sure if you remember me saying, this "Unpressurized system" isn't permanent. Maybe you think I'm going to keep running that even when it gets fixed too right?.. Smh.

I do ask questions for the mere fact of knowledge.

I know the purpose of the sensors and their jobs. I'm not a dunce when it comes to cars. HOWEVER, I guess I can say I am a dunce when it comes to learning about parts I haven't interacted with in a sense. If that makes sense.

Yes, we all know plugs are temporary. I never said it was a permanent fix. I previously stated I was going to replace it anyway. I didn't plan on riding on it long. Besides, the car probably has been driven MAYBE 12 times since the plug and that was only to work at the speed limit by-the-way. There has been no "extended driving" as you may be thinking.


However, there is a difference between realistic talk and jinxing people because of your negative attitude. *Chuckle* but you don't like to hear that do you?

Your talk gets worse and worse... from overheating and exploding....from a plugged tire going flat again and flipping over on the highway...from no cats to exploding....from fines to jail?

From what I've read on your replies in several threads, its no wonder people only ask for your knowledge and not your opinion. Your opinions are not only common-sense-real but quite escalated in their response to simple things.


Thanks man. I don't mind asking you for knowledge, but I don't need your opinion. You can stick those somewhere in a file cabinet.

_-_ IG: KID_LYRICS _-_

 

[RigsLS]

My bad, I was wrong again, all the prefix let me to believe, including the video, that you were attempting to run this LS without the CATs.
Pardon my partial rudeness but I tell it how it is. CATs are expensive, so going forward, you'd be best to gut them and adjust with a tune, either that or if the cheddar is available some straight weld in, highflow CAT replacements. I personally myself would not just straight pipe it as you are still going to need the upstream sensors in place plus gutting them at least will still make it look like you have CATs, the tune can/could fool the emissions test as long as no other CEL's are on at such time.

EDIT - - - -


Then again, now that you have them out, you could attempt to wash them out and see if you can get them cleaned up a bit, potentially they are not damaged at all but merely clogged a slight bit. Hold them up to the light and have a look at the internal screens, if they are not whole, partially melted, they'd be considered done.

Also, used CATs fetch a bit of cash flow at the recyclers. Could contribute to new highflow units.

 

[Kid_Lyrics]

My bad, I was wrong again, all the prefix let me to believe, including the video, that you were attempting to run this LS without the CATs.
Pardon my partial rudeness but I tell it how it is. CATs are expensive, so going forward, you'd be best to gut them and adjust with a tune, either that or if the cheddar is available some straight weld in, highflow CAT replacements. I personally myself would not just straight pipe it as you are still going to need the upstream sensors in place plus gutting them at least will still make it look like you have CATs, the tune can/could fool the emissions test as long as no other CEL's are on at such time.

EDIT - - - -


Then again, now that you have them out, you could attempt to wash them and see if you can get them cleaned up a bit, potentially they are not damaged at all but merely clogged a slight bit. Hold them up to the light and have a look at the internal screens, if they are not whole, partially melted, they'd be considered done.

Also, used CATs fetch a bit of cash flow at the recyclers. Could be used to purchase new highflow units.

There, was that so hard? I'm just saying, you should probably either read or ask before assuming the worst of people.

However, that was another plan; Hi-flo cats. However, I'm still stuck on which to buy or if I should go aftermarket OEM or just OEM from the jump. I don't know the right size or if they will actually fit. I was confused on if the cat was curved given the curve of the under-body or if it were straight.

Another reason I removed it.

How do I look at them when they are welded onto the extended pipe? Shouldn't I have to cut them off and re-weld them?

 

[RigsLS]

... cant wait to hear it after it goes back under the knife (or the sawzall to be more accurate) to get a pretty healthy Magnaflow muff and all new piping!

Did my videos convince you to go 'one in the tunnel' ? and if so when you figure completion?
Reason I ask is because I'm struggling to complete my edit version of my 04 LSE exhaust tone vid as of late ... I'd cry if you beat me to it. LOL

I'm still very much enjoying this single dual in/out Magnaflow setup, sounds real nice, much better then my double Bassani mufflers at the back like on the other LS.

I've also noted that when on it ... it does seem to make crossing pedestrians pick up their pace a bit, some even run that last little stretch to the curb.

Shamed a BMW M3 getting on the hiway the other night, just foot to the floor coming out the turn off the on ramp on his tail, he gave up when he heard the beast getting up and around on the left side. (no balls or not enough motor, see ya!)

let me know when you get that exhaust work done, please!

 

[RigsLS]

There, was that so hard? I'm just saying, you should probably either read or ask before assuming the worst of people.

Hey Hey Hey, your prefix let us very much convinced you were up to no good going CATless.

Point:

Lol, if you heard my two previous cars, then you would know my answer.

However, that was another plan; Hi-flo cats. However, I'm still stuck on which to buy or if I should go aftermarket OEM or just OEM from the jump. I don't know the right size or if they will actually fit. I was confused on if the cat was curved given the curve of the under-body or if it were straight.

Another reason I removed it.

How do I look at them when they are welded onto the extended pipe? Shouldn't I have to cut them off and re-weld them?

Should maybe check with Member Hite, he is currently running some aftermarket high flow CAT, can't recall now which brand but he swears by them.

 

[Kid_Lyrics]

Hey Hey Hey, your prefix let us very much convinced you were up to no good going CATless.

Point:







Should maybe check with Member Hite, he is currently running some aftermarket high flow CAT, can't recall now which brand but he swears by them.

Lol. You asked if I were going to roll around with it that loud. In which I am, or maybe I should say just a tad bit quieter? Even still, Loud, yes.

I'll check with him.

 

[Kid_Lyrics]

Hydraulic Cooling Fan Removal Instructions

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/fo...TS-OF-PICTURES!!!&p=2037401453#post2037401453

 

[Telco]

Unless something has been changed, Magnaflow is the only maker of true high-flow cats.

BigRig's not quite right on how the front vs rear O2s work, unless the LS does it different. In days of old, the fronts provided feedback to the computer on the fuel/air mix and the rears were only used to make sure your car set a code if you pulled the cats off. Modern setups use the fronts for crude fuel/air mix tuning, and the rears are used for both ensuring you don't cut/gut the cats and for fine fuel/air tuning. When you do a delete on the rear O2s in the computer, and this is one place where BigRig got it wrong, you aren't altering what they see. You are telling the computer to disregard the rear sensors altogether. The other place he went wrong, the computer isn't looking for a set voltage. The computer knows how much fuel/air is going into the engine, and knows how much is coming out. It also knows that if X amount of air enters the engine and Y amount comes out, the cats should burn off Z amount of fuel and air. It looks for what the reading should be, and this is a varying voltage range. When the cats are removed, the front and rear sensors will read the same, and this is what tells the computer you removed the cats. On some cars, people have successfully fooled the computer by using a pair of spark plug foulers with the ends cut off then stacked in to space the rear O2 sensors far enough out that they aren't in the exhaust stream, which is apparently enough to fool the computer into thinking the cat is present when it is not. However, this has only worked on a few Japanese cars that I am aware of, and never on the LS.

I really wouldn't gut them, because modern cats aren't the same as the old pellet bed cats. Essentially on the old ones, they were blowing the exhaust through a sack of gravel. The wire mesh is expanded enough that the restriction through the cats is almost nonexistent. If they overheat the mesh melts, causing a blockage. If you do want to drill them out I wouldn't gut them completely, just run a long drill bit through the mesh in a few places. With luck you'll get enough of a reaction to keep the downstream sensors happy while removing enough blockage to run. This is a temp fix though, and I wouldn't run it hard while it's this way because it'll still be partially clogged.

 

[RigsLS]

Telco! WTF!?! how is how I described is any different then how you just finished descibing it? Seriously Bud! ... and BTW the PCM is in fact fooled with a set value for the downstreams in a tune! At least that's what I read and perhaps I shouldn't believe everything I read on the web but it was from a tuner site some years ago. I thought I had a pretty good understanding of it.

 

[RigsLS]

... Modern setups use the fronts for crude fuel/air mix tuning ...

"The upstream O2 sensors send readings to the PCM to aid in adjusting air/fuel mixture. They help determine, in real time, if your air/fuel ratio is rich or lean. They do not directly measure the air or the fuel entering the engine but when information from oxygen sensors is coupled with information from other sources, it can be used to indirectly determine the air/fuel ratio."

Seriously, I got this 'not quite right' ???

... and the rears are used for both ensuring you don't cut/gut the cats and for fine fuel/air tuning ...

" ... exhaust emissions are out of wack and not acceptable. In turn it will then make attempts to adjust further fuel trim and ..."


Huh!?!? ... you kidding me? I didn't get this correct? It monitors the efficiency of the catalytic converts for emissions purposes.

... When you do a delete on the rear O2s ... You are telling the computer to disregard the rear sensors altogether ...

Wrong!

^ EDIT - - - Yup, you got me on this one. It is indeed a simple disable by means of entering 0 as the value. During Open loop the PCM is not referring to the downstream sensors for feedback. Not using it to modify its timing and fuel maps.

... the computer isn't looking for a set voltage ... It looks for what the reading should be, and this is a varying voltage range.

"... need to send a particular voltage reading around .5 volts constant, within a range that is acceptable ..."

Ok, I see I used the word 'constant' and followed directly by 'a range that is acceptable' ...



"BigRig got it wrong" Telco, seriously I thought I was talking to Don for a second.

 

[RigsLS]

Telco,

"Downstream sensor produces a voltage that changes when the amount of unburned oxygen in the exhaust changes. If the O2 sensor is a traditional zirconia type sensor, the voltage output drops to about 0.2 volts when the fuel mixture is lean (more oxygen in the exhaust). When the fuel mixture is rich (less oxygen in the exhaust), the sensor’s output jumps up to a high of about 0.9 volts. The high or low voltage signal tells the PCM the fuel mixture is rich or lean."

source: http://www.easterncatalytic.com/education/


I had always understood that it was happiest around .5volts, right in the middle. I did state the following 'a range that is acceptable'

I don't understand why you feel the need to explain that I somehow got this wrong, when in fact I didn't. your kick at it was it's there to see if you removed the CAT !?!?!



" If the converter is doing its job and is reducing the pollutants in the exhaust, the downstream oxygen sensor should show little activity (few lean-to-rich transitions, which are also called “crosscounts”). The sensor’s voltage reading should also be fairly steady (not changing up or down), and average 0.45 volts or higher."

source: http://www.easterncatalytic.com/education/

Looks to me YOU got it wrong, it does in fact look for a desired value as I had already mentioned.




"If converter efficiency has declined to the point where the vehicle may be exceeding the pollution limit, the PCM will turn on the Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) and set a diagnostic trouble code. At that point, additional diagnosis may be needed to confirm the failing converter. If the upstream and downstream O2 sensors are functioning properly and show a drop off in converter efficiency, the converter must be replaced to restore emissions compliance."

source: http://www.easterncatalytic.com/education/



You wrote: "... the rears are used for both ensuring you don't cut/gut the cats and for fine fuel/air tuning ..."

I wrote: "... within a range that is acceptable, if outside of range, it will throw P0430 and P0420 instructing the PCM that the exhaust emissions are out of wack and not acceptable ..."



Telco, CLEAN YOUR GLASSES !!!!

 

[1LoudLS]

for whats its worth... the LS already has pretty darn high flowing cats from the factory. unless of course failed coils melt them into a chunk of lava...

 

[RigsLS]

I thought Hite was possibly running Eastern hi flow CAT, I'd have to find his sig to be sure.

 

[1LoudLS]

Did my videos convince you to go 'one in the tunnel' ?

I originally wanted to go with a tunnel mount single exhaust after hearing Nick's and Tommy's but had originally planned on lowering it and one of them was saying that it did scrape kinda often so I ended up just going with a pair of rear mounted muffs and ditching the resonators just like I had on my 1st gen. but since I never lowered it and one of the rear muffs rusted out and broke off, I figured it was time to revisit that plan, I was a little concerned at how loud Nick said his was especially with not having and cats to help quiet it down a little... but after hearing yours with the slightly longer muffler, I decided it would probably be about perfect for what I'm looking for.

and if so when you figure completion? Reason I ask is because I'm struggling to complete my edit version of my 04 LSE exhaust tone vid as of late ... I'd cry if you beat me to it. LOL

its looking like its probably going to be a few more weeks at least, A local shop wants a little over $400 to bend and weld all of the piping, and while that ain't too bad, a close friend of mine has his own garage. and said it would probably only be around $100-$150 for us to do it there, and as a plus, I would get to help with the welding and get a little more practice with a tig. down side is that there is a pony getting a whole lot of boost piping that needs to get welded up so he can get that car out of there to make room for mine... dont worry, you should definitely beat me too it, cause even I after its done, its gonna take a few weeks for the muffler to break in (maybe even more if I dont start driving it more)

I'm still very much enjoying this single dual in/out Magnaflow setup, sounds real nice, much better then my double Bassani mufflers at the back like on the other LS.

I don't know if it just the longer pipe after the muffler that helps refine the sound, but I've always preferred the sound of cars with the muffler in the middle as opposed to right at the end of the system

I've also noted that when on it ... it does seem to make crossing pedestrians pick up their pace a bit, some even run that last little stretch to the curb.

yep, normally down town around campus, people are freaking retarded and will just walk out to cross the street everywhere with out ever looking, I always make sure to use SST and down shift to keep the revs up and surprisingly, most people get their faces out of their phones and actually look up and don't try to cross in front of me! (which alone is worth the price of admission)

let me know when you get that exhaust work done, please!

Fo Sho

 

[RigsLS]

^ Cool story Bro! ... no for real, cool beans. It's definitely going to be a tad louder then (as you mentioned) mufflers at the back. Glad to hear, hope you like it. There's days I wonder if it's too much but couple seconds later, its Naaaah! kidding me, it's PERFECT. I think Devin is doing the same thing. That'll make three of us current LS owners with single tunnel positioned muffler systems. (unless there are others I don't know of, possible)

I gotta get my videos edited together. Month long project.

 

[Kid_Lyrics]

So... is the cat actually empty? I can reach to the back of it and feel the contact from the pole. I know they usually have wire, mesh, and etc in them. So the fact that it pings when I tap it is confusing me...

I'm thinking I'm wrong because I'd be able to hear an exhaust note. ...right??

It's not hitting the metal ridges either. .

https://vimeo.com/165000230

Oh and talk about a bad valve cover gasket... sheesh...

_-_ IG: KID_LYRICS _-_

 

[RigsLS]

Should see a mesh screen, somewhat silver in color.

 

[Kid_Lyrics]

Besides, that doesn't look like a factory weld

Compared to the other

_-_ IG: KID_LYRICS _-_

 

[RigsLS]

Junior, I fished this out of the "What did you do to your LS today" thread.
This is on my 01 LS V8 when I had the whole system redone. I had some concerns my CATs where clogged, you can see in the first picture, the piping was cut off just after the downstream O2 sensor, If you look closely (although a bit blurry) you can see the silver/grayish mesh screen. It's those that either melt or get clogged up.

Turns out that day, after inspection, I decided right there on the spot we were not going to gut the CATs after all. Although the guy doing the work was willing to go along with it, he strongly suggested against it and after blowing out the CATs, said there is nothing wrong with them, they are in good shape.


Pics below for your interests,

Had the exhaust redone today. Turned into an all day experience.

As the whole previous system was cut off and the inside of both CAT where blown out, car lowered onto the ground and a good few hard revs blew the remainder out, both screens inside each CAT were determined to be in perfect condition after all, nothing was clogged up, burned or deteriorated, a good blow out and it was decided to NOT gut them after all.

Nice symmetrical new system put back in place

Much cleaner job, just the tips turned out a little on the small side for me, will need to have them redone a bit.

At least the large chrome cannon tips are off.

Runs a bit more quieter then before.

 

[Kid_Lyrics]

I reattached the cat back to my car...... somewhat. ..

Got my tires fixed. .and now I'm back on the road. .haha

https://vimeo.com/165031954

_-_ IG: KID_LYRICS _-_

 

[hite337]

No high flow CATs anymore. They kept throwing cels. Wrnt to Eastern OEM-ish. Not great quality but economical. 2002_Lincoln-LS had Magnaflow HO's.

 

[Kid_Lyrics]

Daaammnnn #Ellisana, back at it again with the sexiness. Haha

I've gotta redo one of them because I dried it too soon buuuttt I love how it looks! !!!!
https://vimeo.com/165648413

_-_ IG: KID_LYRICS _-_


_-_ IG: KID_LYRICS _-_

 

[Kid_Lyrics]

Hung out and worked on the LS'

Oh and i Did the other side... not perfect but good enough until new wheels

https://vimeo.com/165701499

_-_ IG: KID_LYRICS _-_

 

[G-RELL]

is it already peeling in the 2nd video? around the lip?