A Gun-Nut Win On Health Reform

[04SCTLS]

A fringe group muzzles health insurers on gun ownership.ByTimothy Noah Posted Sunday, Dec. 20, 2009, at 5:46 PM ET

http://www.slate.com/id/2239294/

Score one for the Gun Owners of America, a lobby group positioned well to the right of the National Rifle Association. Last month I described how this fringe group zeroed in on a health reform provision encouraging insurers to reward healthy habits and, by implication, to punish unhealthy ones like smoking and obesity. GOA got it into its head that if health reform were passed, the health and human services secretary would compel insurers to punish gun ownership as an unhealthy lifestyle. Although an adverse health impact (or threat of same) on man or beast is pretty much the whole point of owning a gun, nothing in the bill remotely suggested Congress wanted to wade into these politically treacherous shoals.

Nonetheless, to pacify GOA, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (who represents the gun-loving state of Nevada) has inserted into his "manager's amendment" a section titled "Protecting 2nd Amendment Gun Rights." It states that no wellness program implemented under health reform may require disclosure or collection of any information relating to gun ownership. Since collecting information about gun ownership was the last thing health reformers wanted to do, this concession represents no particular sacrifice on the government's part.
But gun owners also won another provision forbidding private insurers participating in the bill's exchanges from charging higher premiums, or denying coverage, or denying wellness discounts on the basis of gun ownership. Unlike the previous section, this one doesn't place a restriction on what government may do. It places a restriction on what the private sector may choose to do on its own. It inhibits that most holy of right-wing sacred cows: free enteprise.

There's no point pretending this has anything to do with conservative principle. Seven years ago GOA got its knickers in a twist when State Farm and Prudential canceled a couple of insurance policies because of gun ownership. One policyholder alarmed Prudential because he owned a military-style Mossberg 500 pump-action rifle. The other alarmed State Farm because he had a shooting range on his property. Both of these policies were for property insurance, not health insurance. But apparently GOA is worried that private health insurers may, even in the absence of government pressure, take notice of studies like this one and this one and this one that show gun owners are (duh) more likely to injure or kill themselves or others, and adjust their risk tables accordingly. Now they can't, thanks to GOA's newfound enthusiasm for the heavy hand of government regulation.

________________________________________________________________

So gun ownership is a sacred cow that needs to be protected from free enterprize?

 

[fossten]

Your article drips with vitriol against gun ownership. GOA is a good organization, not that the ignorant Timothy Noah would know anything about it. By the way, I'm a member and I've met Larry Pratt personally.

The reality does not correspond to the perception created by media coverage. Fatal gun accidents declined by almost sixty percent from 1975 to 1995, even though the number of guns per capita increased by almost forty percent.

Fatal gun accidents involving children (aged 0-14) also fell significantly, from 495 in 1975, to under 250 in 1995. More children die from accidental drownings or burns than from gun accidents.

(Gun supply statistics are from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, gun accident rates from the National Safety Council).

Accident Type by Age
0-4 5-14 15-24 25-44 45-64 65-74 75+ Total
Automobile 900 1,500 10,500 13,300 9,200 2,700 4,900 43,000
Falls 70 70 210 950 1,900 1,700 11,300 16,200
Poisoning by solids, liquids 60 40 800 6,800 3,200 300 500 11,700
Pedestrian1 250 300 750 1,300 1,400 450 850 5,300
Drowning 450 350 700 1,250 650 230 270 3,900
Fires, burns 400 260 240 700 800 500 700 3,600
Suffocation by ingested object 100 20 30 250 400 500 2,100 3,400
Firearms 20 60 150 190 110 30 40 600
Poisoning by gases, vapors 10 10 70 120 80 40 70 400
All other causes 700 400 1,100 3,000 3,200 1,600 4,500 14,500
TOTAL 2,700 2,700 13,800 26,600 19,500 7,600 24,400 97,300

 

[04SCTLS]

While the decline in accidents is commendable a gun has to be present for there to be a gun accident or incident that's sueable for damages.
Insurance companies charge higher premiums for houses with pools and/or certain breeds of dogs.
Some companies won't even sell you insurance if you have a violent breed or say a doberman named Razor.

Why should gun owners be subsitized by the genaral population for their risks and losses?

 

[fossten]

While the decline in accidents is commendable a gun has to be present for there to be a gun accident or incident that's sueable for damages.
Insurance companies charge higher premiums for houses with pools and/or certain breeds of dogs.
Some companies won't even sell you insurance if you have a violent breed or say a doberman named Razor.

Why should gun owners be subsitized by the genaral population for their risks and losses?

False premise. There is no evidence that homeowner's insurance even pays for gun accidents in the first place. It's called negligence, and it's not covered.

Try another angle.

 

[Calabrio]

...so if we nationalize medicine or health insurance, what part of our private lives SHOULD NOT be regulated by the government?

Only the rich can AFFORD to have the ability to pay for their "rights?"

If you MANDATE that everyone has to have a health insurance policy provided by or authored by the federal government, where does government end and the private begin?

Can I ride a motorcycle?
Ski?
Mountain climb?
Hiking?
What behavior is sufficiently risky that I should be FORCED to pay extreme insurance rates to persuade or nudge me from engaging in it.

 

[fossten]

Precisely, Cal...well said.

 

[Calabrio]

...and not to mention, the entire premise is unconstitutional.
We're literally debating whether the congress should have the power to impose unconstitutional laws that limit our constitutional freedoms- based on what it costs.

it's an outrage.

 

[fossten]

It's time for disobedience. Not violence, but disobedience.

 

[Calabrio]

First, it's time for education.

If people don't understand the "why," the philosophical and economic whys, they can't be motivated enough to engage. And if (when) thing get very difficult, it's even more important, because it's precisely then that people in need make impulsive decisions with no concern for the long term or the principle of it.

Then the states need to reassert their power.
But that only happens when the general population understands the philosophy that founded this country and distinguished it from the rest of the world- and WHY the founders made the decisions they did. The failures of 20th century government run schools have left generations of people (unless they were self-motivated to learn it) ignorant of this.

And then the states need to reassert their power and battle it out with the courts.

Of course, none of this happens if the states are dependent upon the federal government to bail them out or because they are bankrupt.... due to rising unemployment, economic crashes, and medicaid costs.

Which reminds me, it's time to restick CLOWARD & PIVEN again.

 

[fossten]

People do understand why.

There are 30 million Tea Party members.

They are angry, and they want this rogue government stopped.

Only 1/3 of the population of the original colonies actually supported the founders in the Rev. war. It doesn't take a majority to enact change - look at what the liberals have done.

The government no longer represents the people. It is an oligarchical tyranny. We're already being RULED by a minority. The 'general population' will NEVER be educated. They're too busy being overrun like sheep, and they're too concerned with being comfortable in their padded chains.

There is no effective, quick way to educate the general public without any help from the media. It will take too long, and this government is going at too fast a pace for education to keep up. This is by design - hurry up and enact statist policies before the people know what hit them. By the time anybody realizes what's going on, it will be too late.

For those of us who still love liberty, it's time to reclaim it.

 

[Calabrio]

People do understand why.
There are 30 million Tea Party members.
They are angry, and they want this rogue government stopped.

Some people do. But I can assure you, those 30,000,000 members ARE NOT all that well versed in the constitution or the philosophy that supports it.

They know something's wrong. They sense something is wrong. But far too many of them have a very shallow understanding of it. The concern is based on the undefined values they were raised with as Americans. As I said, they don't know the "WHYs"

Many of the people still have a bumper sticker understanding of what is going on. And, unfortunately, that's still considerably deeper than much of the rest of the population.

Everyone involved needs to have a deep enough understanding of it to both educate to their families who we are, where we come from, and what is going on- as well as be able to articulately defend,explain, and debate what it is they believe in. Why it's necessary for us to return to our constitutional republic. Why federalism and capitalism are the foundation for Americanism.

What you say they "know" is a gut feeling. That's not enough.
They need to use that as the motivation to learn what it really means.
You can't articulate a "gut feeling" or relate that kind of information or passion. You must be able to articulate it and educate someone who just turned off the TV after watching a reality TV marathon.

Only 1/3 of the population of the original colonies actually supported the founders in the Rev. war. It doesn't take a majority to enact change - look at what the liberals have done.

I don't see the point your trying to make here.
However, I think references to the Revolutionary War are a mistake and not appropriate in the least. For starters, the country was a colony with local representation in place. Furthermore, England was an ocean away, involved in other wars, and the King was in the process of going mad.

That's very different than a progressive regime in place that can use the federal power of the greatest superpower on it's citizens. And based upon Progressive philosophy, has little regard for civil liberties in it's pursuit of a Utopian society.

The government no longer represents the people. It is an oligarchical tyranny. We're already being RULED by a minority. The 'general population' will NEVER be educated. They're too busy being overrun like sheep, and they're too concerned with being comfortable in their padded chains.

That's a cop out.
Most people absolutely have the ability to understand it.
And those who are motivated certain can.
They don't need to be scholars, but everyone needs to know the basics.
Including basic economics and how a supply/demand curve works.

There is no effective, quick way to educate the general public without any help from the media. It will take too long, and this government is going at too fast a pace for education to keep up. This is by design - hurry up and enact statist policies before the people know what hit them. By the time anybody realizes what's going on, it will be too late.

And the solution is?
More importantly, the NEXT step is what?... not the last resort.

For those of us who still love liberty, it's time to reclaim it.

Again, offer up a process.
It reckless and thoughtless to simply use the imagery of armed revolution and foolishly and reckless cling to some warped romanticized image of it.

We speak of Cloward Piven in another thread. What a better way to seize power and collapse systems then to have knee-jerk lunatics running around with rifles causing chaos (be they from the Blue Ridge Mountains or San Fransisco). Do you want to see how fast that muscle of the government will come down and SMASH such a premature effort and in doing so effectively wipe out the Bill of the Rights??

There IS NOTHING ROMANTIC ABOUT ARMED REVOLUTION.
The patriotic, founding fathers knew that and did EVERYTHING in their power to avoid it....it was almost 3 years from the Boston Tea party to the Deceleration of Independence.

It destroys everything. People, lives, generations, economies... EVERYTHING.
It is so premature and foolish actively discuss it as though it's an immediate step is a HUGE mistake.


If you want to RECLAIM LIBERTY,
TEACH IT. Preach it. Inspire that same love in other people
Get them to understand it. Because in doing so, you'll also inspire a love and passion for the country.
No one should drop their guard, but being a teacher might not only save the country, it'll strengthen the individuals convictions and give the person clarity.

 

[fossten]

Cal, stop mischaracterizing my arguments. I specifically said non violent action, yet your argument devolved into that straw man. So basically you just wasted half of your post, and I don't have to respond to it. You always swoop in here as soon as somebody starts talking about resisting the government. Sometimes I wonder which side you're on. We've advocated caution for so long the country's been stolen out from under us. It's TIME. Deal with it.

You haven't offered a solution yet. How do you teach people something in the very few weeks we have left of freedom in this country?

Can't happen the way you think it should.

It's past time for that. The Democrats didn't bother teaching anybody, they just took action. What you're proposing is romantic but futile.

What's my next step? Mild, organized civil disobedience. It's already begun. You can join if you want (I have access), or you can sit on the sidelines throwing feces like a monkey and bemoaning the lack of education in this country. My hunch is that those who are truly angry at what is going on will act. Those who are fearful or pensive will not.

That's a cop out.
Most people absolutely have the ability to understand it.
And those who are motivated certain can.
They don't need to be scholars, but everyone needs to know the basics.
Including basic economics and how a supply/demand curve works.

Talk about a cop out. That's a weak excuse to avoid taking any risks. You're advocating a course of action without a plan, which requires time that we don't have, and resources that are already supporting the tyrants. You've also backpedaled (see the bolded part) into a position where you acknowledge my point that many people AREN'T motivated to do anything because they like their comfort zones.

Looks more like you'd rather just sit on your ass until it's too late. Good thing Andrew Breitbart didn't do that.

Rather than continue a) misrepresenting my statements and b) whining about needing to teach people first, why don't you consider how many freedoms will be lost by the 2010 elections, and also consider how much our votes actually count. Do you believe that a mythical 55-45 Republican majority in the Senate a) can and b) will reverse the tyrannical bill that is about to pass?

 

[Calabrio]

Cal, stop mischaracterizing my arguments. I specifically said non violent action, yet your argument devolved into that straw man. So basically you just wasted half of your post, and I don't have to respond to it

You don't have to respond to anything-
and you probably shouldn't be compelled to respond unless you disagree or want to express agreement.

Looks to me like you're not going to respond out of your own convenience.

You always swoop in here as soon as somebody starts talking about resisting the government. Sometimes I wonder which side you're on.

You have a tendency to speak in vagaries.

We've advocated caution for so long the country's been stolen out from under us. It's TIME. Deal with it.

You're the one arguing that education and state level action IS NOT the answer, instead some kind of vague, undefined "resistance," unorganized to the federal government? I'm saying that any push back needs to start with an educated population that fully understands WHY things are, that don't speak in cliche sound bytes about their rights.

Political change can be affected much easier at the STATE and LOCAL levels than it can in Washington. And the STATE can exert pressure on the federal government in defense of it's rights.

You haven't offered a solution yet. How do you teach people something in the very few weeks we have left of freedom in this country?

I just did offer a scenario. A first step that is infinitely more thoughtful and realistic than you're vague, reactionary, nonsense.

NOTHING radical can be done in the next few weeks. No movement can be launched in days. Something done so hastily and thoughtless would likely just do more harm than good. "Just Do Something" is not the solution.

But you asked how do you teach people? Easy. Make sure that you're well versed and then talk to your family and friends. Bring your family to lectures. Make your kids read quality books on history and philosophy. Have a copy of the federalist and anti-federalists papers in the house...

Bring people together... for example, IN TAVERNS, and discuss the issues, books.
Join groups. Bring in speakers. Trade books.

Do things improve over night?
No.

In the meantime, perhaps one of our elected officials will figure out a clever parliamentary trick to delay the bill until after the holidays, forcing these Senators to have to come home and avoid the majority of the population who opposes this bill.

It's not JUST this bill that's the problem.
It doesn't end with it's passage or defeat.

Can't happen the way you think it should.

It's past time for that. The Democrats didn't bother teaching anybody, they just took action. What you're proposing is romantic but futile.

You're comparing apples and oranges because the philosophies being advanced are different. The radical left had to convince every one that their agenda was something that it wasn't to gain acceptance while buying votes and building dependence.

And you're wrong- the progressive left in this country spent the past century taking over the education system in this country and indoctrinated successive generations of children.

What's my next step? Mild, organized civil disobedience. It's already begun. You can join if you want (I have access), or you can sit on the sidelines throwing feces like a monkey and bemoaning the lack of education in this country.

No, but I think I'm going to bemoan YOUR lack of education.
People like you still seem to think that there's some silver bullet that will just fix things. Do a sit in. Refuse to pay your taxes... that'll teach them.

It's going to take more than that.
And the rowdier and more reactionary you get, the more you play into their hands.

My hunch is that those who are truly angry at what is going on will act. Those who are fearful or pensive will not.

Don't forget those who are stupid and reactionary and don't even understand what they are doing. Those that can quote bumper stickers yet lack the deeper understanding and patience necessary to affect any real reform. They are sure to act. And to do something stupid. Something that makes the situation infinitely worse and gives a despotism the crisis necessary to clamp down on all dissent.

Talk about a cop out. That's a weak excuse to avoid taking any risks. You're advocating a course of action without a plan, which requires time that we don't have, and resources that are already supporting the tyrants. You've also backpedaled (see the bolded part) into a position where you acknowledge my point that many people AREN'T motivated to do anything because they like their comfort zones.

Do elaborate on this civil disobedience you think is going to change the world.
If it makes sense, I'll be the first to recognize it.

But the first step to any political change needs to be done peacefully through the systems in place.
Radical efforts are made when reasonable ones are exhausted. What is radical and what is reasonable is defined by the times.

Looks more like you'd rather just sit on your ass until it's too late.

JUST DO SOMETHING! No time to think
Doesn't matter! JUST DO SOMETHING, it'll make me feel good!!!

Rather than continue a) misrepresenting my statements and b) whining about needing to teach people first, why don't you consider how many freedoms will be lost by the 2010 elections, and also consider how much our votes actually count. Do you believe that a mythical 55-45 Republican majority in the Senate a) can and b) will reverse the tyrannical bill that is about to pass?

Good luck with your sit in... or whatever the hell you're trying to say, but not say, but elude to, but not declare.
I wouldn't want to put words in your mouth.

 

[fossten]

Good luck with your 'lessons taught in TAVERNS.' I'm sure it will be successful.

Sounds like that's where you do most of your thinking. Have you ever tried to talk to somebody about politics in a serious way in a freaking bar? You must be a complete nitwit.

Meanwhile, I'm getting others organized. It's not some reactionary thing like you're painting it. But you keep on with your paranoid bitching. I'm sure you'll bandwagon once the government gets to something you actually care about. Until then, by all means, sit around and take potshots at others who are tired of being pushed around.

Sheep.

I'm sure there were people like you who condemned the Boston Tea Party.

 

[Calabrio]

Good luck with your 'lessons taught in TAVERNS.' I'm sure it will be successful.

I was making a historical reference with that comment.
One I mistakenly assumed you'd recognize.
Instead, you've demonstrated the need for better education.
Perhaps you should go one, maybe you'll be able to find a Sam Adams.

Meanwhile, I'm getting others organized. It's not some reactionary thing like you're painting it.

I haven't alluded to anything. I haven't painted any pictures.
You've deliberately been vague, it's impossible to address whatever is going on in your head with specifics.

Great, get organized. Get people together. Maybe even at meetinghouses or taverns and discuss, debate, and exchange ideas. Online too. PERSUADE people who don't agree with you. Try to patiently educate those who haven't invested as much time to understand this as you.

But you keep on with your paranoid bitching.

The paranoids are out to get you?

I'm sure you'll bandwagon once the government gets to something you actually care about. Until then, by all means, sit around and take potshots at others who are tired of being pushed around.

QUICK. SOMETHING. ANYTHING.
JUST DO SOMETHING!

You've avoided addressing any of the points I made in the last point.
Instead you foolishly invested you efforts into insulting me, an action that appears to have backfired.

I've never once said that we should sit by idle.
Nor did I say that civil disobedience is to be avoided.
Though I've clearly stated that anyone who romanticizes about a "civil war" or "armed revolution" are mental, idiots, or fools. Since that doesn't include you, and I've never said it did, your indignation should be unnecessary.

And I'm stressing the critical importance for the people to have a solid foundation. To know what they believe, why they believe it, and where the ideas and values that we, as Americans, came from. Without that strong and stable foundation, then when things get difficult, people will cling to almost anything for security.

Again, if you think some sort of Cloward/Piven Strategy is in play, it doesn't matter who collapses or stresses the system- just that the government can reorganize and fill in the void.

Sheep.

Reactionary moron.
Poo-flinging monkey.
I can play that game too.

I'm sure there were people like you who condemned the Boston Tea Party.

Powerful symbolic gestures are important.
But the Boston Tea Party didn't win our independence from Britain. As I mentioned earlier, it was YEARS after the Tea Party that the Deceleration of Independence was signed.

 

[fossten]

Got it, you're not interested. No problem. There are plenty of people angry enough to actually do something. Go ahead and sit on the sidelines. I'll move on.

 

[Calabrio]

Got it, you're not interested. No problem. There are plenty of people angry enough to actually do something. Go ahead and sit on the sidelines. I'll move on.

Is your reading comprehension really as low as you are demonstrating it to be?

The only thing I'm "not interested in" or would dissuade would be thoughtless, reactionary actions that, while providing the participants a false sense of accomplishment, actually sets back any progress. Your deliberate vagueness makes it impossible to address anything you have in your mind specifically. If the things that I've mentioned don't involve you, you shouldn't have your panties all bunched up.

But I got it, you're not interested in actually learning anything or teaching those around you... no problem.
You can have a "revolution" with a foundation of bumper stickers.

Beam me up, Scotty.

 

[Frogman]

So how long before we have a new political party, called the Tea Party Movement?

 

[Joeys Lincoln]

Got it, you're not interested. No problem. There are plenty of people angry enough to actually do something. Go ahead and sit on the sidelines. I'll move on.

Ok so what would the actions of actually doing something consist of?

 

[fossten]

Powerful symbolic gestures are important.
But the Boston Tea Party didn't win our independence from Britain. As I mentioned earlier, it was YEARS after the Tea Party that the Deceleration of Independence was signed.

Misdirection on your part. The War started just 16 months after the Boston Tea Party.

I have a question for you, Cal.

Do you think our government can restrain itself from eventually provoking a violent response from the people?

 

[fossten]

Is your reading comprehension really as low as you are demonstrating it to be?

The only thing I'm "not interested in" or would dissuade would be thoughtless, reactionary actions that, while providing the participants a false sense of accomplishment, actually sets back any progress. Your deliberate vagueness makes it impossible to address anything you have in your mind specifically. If the things that I've mentioned don't involve you, you shouldn't have your panties all bunched up.

Cop out, just in case you end up approving of my actions, I shouldn't be offended, because this is just a standard response that you always give when you don't know all the facts. Got it. So what you're saying is that you are just popping off half cocked, assuming that what I'm organizing is reactionary and thoughtless, but not really having any idea what it actually is.

So in effect, you're poisoning the well, just like you did in the Constitutional thread. Good way to shut off debate, though, I gotta hand it to you. I have no desire to continue the conversation while being heckled.

You didn't even bother to gather the facts, but rather condemned any action other than sitting in taverns as 'reactionary and thoughtless.' Very classy. Talk about lack of reading comprehension.

Who wouldn't be vague when you react in such a knee-jerk fashion? Why would I waste my time discussing it with a closed minded person like you?

Like I said, you're not interested, I got it. Go back to the taverns. Let me know how many converts you get, who will remember anything about your 'teaching' conversation when they sober up.

Personally, I know that there are 30 million Tea Party members, a large portion of which are already a) educated on the issues and b) ready to actually do something. Frankly, it's becoming rather obvious that you prefer inaction disguised by a so-called 'thoughtful' approach.

 

[fossten]

Ok so what would the actions of actually doing something consist of?

Link

 

[04SCTLS]

Link

On January 20, 2010 we will demonstrate our power

To be or not to be that is the question.

We'll see how much of a sustained effort can be brought to bear on this.

 

[Joeys Lincoln]

Link

So you're going to skip work for a day.

We already have nearly 3,000 people signed up on the facebook page and this Ning.com website with 2,000 more on twitter.

Christ 5,000 people after only 4 days you guys are lighting the world on fire with this pace . I wonder how many more you can get by the 20th and if they'll all even participate.

 

[fossten]

So you're going to skip work for a day.

We already have nearly 3,000 people signed up on the facebook page and this Ning.com website with 2,000 more on twitter.

Christ 5,000 people after only 4 days you guys are lighting the world on fire with this pace . I wonder how many more you can get by the 20th and if they'll all even participate.

Wow you're classy. And have no reading comprehension either. Well done.

I give you a solid B+.

See kids, this is what happens when you skim and don't actually read the material. You end up looking stupid like Joey.

What's next - a 'teabagger' comment?

Exit question: Was there any chance you were a) going to actually read the link or b) make anything but a snarky comment?