America's Judgment - A Losing War with Islam

[Barwick]

The rifle is obviously a tool you've used to achieve your ends.

Islam is the tool being used by some to achieve their ends.

It is used to inflame the young, ignorant, and intolerant to shift power to those who currently don't have it, and lust for it. It is used as a justification for acts that foul the soul. To ignore the role Islam plays in our world at this time just because you may feel it doesn't reflect your view of Islam is just sticking your head in the sand.

Isn't it a bit far fetched to assert that a persons life is meaningless, without purpose if a God doesn't exist? This is the very kind of thinking which leads people to create "GODS" and subvert their lives to manmade rites.

No, there's a big problem comparing a rifle and Islam, saying both are "tools" used by people to achieve their means.

A rifle is something that a person uses, he controls it and shapes its actions. A rifle doesn't dictate what a person is to do with it. It just shoots a bullet, where that bullet goes is up to the person.

Islam is a religion that controls a person. True Islam, if it is used by a person EXACTLY as it stands (following the Quran exactly), causes a person to kill another human being. It does not leave that choice up to the person (unless that person willingly chooses to not follow Islam exactly. Then that person isn't Muslim, they follow some version of Islam, say "Islam lite", but they can't call themselves Muslim in the true sense of the word, because they don't follow Islam exactly)

 

[TheDude]

You are scientifically incorrect. It is possible to prove the existence of God, and I'll do it right now.

Science is defined in many ways, but one of the most important parts of science is observational models. We will now put science into action to prove that God exists.

Look at that computer screen. Examine the structure of your monitor and tower. You can see that it is designed. It was not randomly formed by colliding molecules; a guiding force made it. You did not witness its creation, nor did you need to witness it in order to make the valid assumption that someone made it. You know someone did without anyone having to argue the point with you. In fact, if someone tried to convince you that your computer was luckily formed over billions of years by the random collision of molecules, your mind would logically reject that notion. "No way!" you'd say.

Now look around you. Look at the planet, with its myriad ecosystems and plant and animal life, look at the complexity of the human body. Look at the earth's magnetic field and the gravitational pull. Look at the seasons, the tilt and rotation on the axis. Note the moon and how it affects the tide. Now look at the solar system. Note how complex galaxies are, yet so insignificant compared to the vast universe. You cannot use the same powers of scientific observation that you just used on your computer and not come to the exact same conclusion: That Someone designed and created it.

Now consider this. If you say that there is no God, then you must take the position that we humans are nothing but a random collection of molecules, without a purpose. That means that everything you do is without meaning. That also means anything you say is without meaning, a useless jumble of words.

Now no matter what you say next in response, you must either posit that your words have meaning or they don't. If you say there is no God, then your words mean nothing and you mean nothing, which also means you could just as well be wrong, since your words are just random processes anyway.

If you say your words matter, you must acknowledge there is a God.

I am not saying "God doesn't exist", the sheer wonder of how our world works is fairly convincing proof of a higher power; but saying that God does exist for certain because something lacks an explanation is ridiculous. Sorry, but your theory of 'It's too complicated to explain so God must have done it' doesn't hold water.

 

[TheDude]

The rifle is obviously a tool you've used to achieve your ends.

Islam is the tool being used by some to achieve their ends.

It is used to inflame the young, ignorant, and intolerant to shift power to those who currently don't have it, and lust for it. It is used as a justification for acts that foul the soul. To ignore the role Islam plays in our world at this time just because you may feel it doesn't reflect your view of Islam is just sticking your head in the sand.

Isn't it a bit far fetched to assert that a persons life is meaningless, without purpose if a God doesn't exist? This is the very kind of thinking which leads people to create "GODS" and subvert their lives to manmade rites.

Not sure if that was directed at me, because I never said such a thing. I agree with you, a person's life isn't meaningless if lacking God.

 

[TheDude]

Hey, I didn't start this conversation, Deville did. We're talking about science here, ok? If you are just a meaningless jumble of molecules, nothing you say has real meaning. It's just random, right? Therefore what you just said was random and meaningless too. Who knows if you even meant to say it or not.

Why does a person absolutely need God to have meaning? God or no God, I would still enjoy my life, chocolate icecream would still taste as sweet, I would love and enjoy the company of my child, I'd still enjoy debating with you etc. etc. Basically what I am saying, I don't need the promise of an afterlife to enjoy this life ad to have a purpose to live it.

 

[TheDude]

No, there's a big problem comparing a rifle and Islam, saying both are "tools" used by people to achieve their means.

A rifle is something that a person uses, he controls it and shapes its actions. A rifle doesn't dictate what a person is to do with it. It just shoots a bullet, where that bullet goes is up to the person.

Islam is a religion that controls a person. True Islam, if it is used by a person EXACTLY as it stands (following the Quran exactly), causes a person to kill another human being. It does not leave that choice up to the person (unless that person willingly chooses to not follow Islam exactly. Then that person isn't Muslim, they follow some version of Islam, say "Islam lite", but they can't call themselves Muslim in the true sense of the word, because they don't follow Islam exactly)

Have you read/studied the Quran? I'm just curious because you state many things as facts.

 

[fossten]

Why does a person absolutely need God to have meaning? God or no God, I would still enjoy my life, chocolate icecream would still taste as sweet, I would love and enjoy the company of my child, I'd still enjoy debating with you etc. etc. Basically what I am saying, I don't need the promise of an afterlife to enjoy this life ad to have a purpose to live it.

This isn't about having God in your life. Interesting how you changed the subject. You said it's impossible to scientifically prove the existence of God, and I disproved your statement.

Besides, how do we know that your last statement is even true if you're just a cocktail of random molecules anyway?

 

[fossten]

It's nice to see John L. Perry agreeing with me...


Reprinted from NewsMax.com

No Win-Win, Only Win-Lose
John L. Perry
Wednesday, July 19, 2006


This article was originally published in March of 2002.


The Middle East peace process is neither process nor peace. The only lasting arrangement: One side has to be clearly victorious, the other unconditionally defeated.


This historic struggle has been going on long enough between Israelis and Palestinians, without anything even approaching a peaceful settlement.

Until one side triumphs over the other:


There'll be no cease fire that holds.

There'll be no negotiations that don't collapse.

There'll be no peace process that produces anything.

There'll be no peace that endures.
There'll be only more of the same that's been possessing the region for decade after decade after generation after generation – a war of terrorism and counter-terrorism, sneak attack and measured retaliation.

Intervention by the United States government, under whatever president, to bring the combatants to the table is futile.

The parties won't come together for a serious settlement because they can't come together. So much innocent blood has been spilled, so many promises broken, so many atrocious acts committed that there is no way on Earth to untangle the mare's nest now forever obscuring the original who-struck-whom.


... When There Is No Peace

Under these circumstances, any peace settlement that is negotiated, any solemn agreement that is signed will not last, for there is no reality of agreement arising from mutual peaceful intent on which to graft any enduring accord.

Just as no contract can be viable unless both parties benefit from it, no peace treaty is worth its own paper and ink unless the conditions for peace are there to be ratified.

Peace treaties do not make peace; they affirm the existence of peace – the absence of conflict.

Too Late Now

In the Middle East today, there is no peace because there is no absence of conflict because neither side has won and the other lost.

The day has long, long ago passed into history when conflict could have been avoided and, out of that, peace precipitated.

Anything that flies in the face of that cruel reality is doomed to fail. Not only to fail, but to make matters all the worse.


There is no joy derived in writing those dismal words, but reality is reality and not always is it sweetness and light.

The Dove Has Flown

No matter how many peace processes or accords are cobbled together, Palestinians are never going achieve what they demand unless they cease tossing human hand grenades and wage all-out war – military assaults – on Israel.

No matter how many ex-generals the American president packs off on a plane to the Middle East to meddle, Israel is never going to achieve what it must have for a secure and peaceful future unless it ceases nipping away at the heels of the terrorists in its midst and wages all-out war – military assaults – on the Palestinian Authority.

Will that bring on a wider shooting war involving Arab states in the region? Of course it will.

A Wider War Is Coming

But that's going to happen anyway, sooner probably than later, for this Israeli-Palestinian death struggle is not going to wander away into the sunset.

It is eventually going to have to be settled the only way irreconcilable conflicts between political powers have ever been settled on this planet – by a fight which one side wins and the other loses.

Will the United States be drawn into that conflict? Of course it will.

That's going to have to happen sooner or later because it is in the strategic interest of the American nation and its people that the Middle East not be converted into a launching pad for a major Islamic war against the West.

In It to the End

America has now positioned itself – as it should have done – in the vanguard of what is going to be a global extermination of terrorism.

And if what the radical Palestinians are doing today to the people of Israel is not terrorism, then what else on Earth is it?

The United States – the American people – belong in this fight in the Middle East, for at stake is the superstructure of Western Civilization.

At the very least, Israel, for all its missteps and miscalculations, is the only democratic nation within a vast radius. Go look at a map.

America cannot afford to lose that little island of an ally.

A flock of Americans may not see it that way, but mark this: The Muslim states all see America that way.

With Us or Agin' Us

President Bush has served notice on the whole world this is a fight to the finish against terrorism and there is no Mr. In-Between.

As Vice President Dick Cheney recently confirmed on his tour to firm up support for the coming war against Iraq, the Arab rulers are waiting to see just how serious America is.

The last thing they want is to be on a losing side.

America must demonstrate to them, and to the rest of the world, that it means business in the war on terrorism.

Going Where the Terrorists Are

There is no surer way to do just that than to come down clearly, swiftly and hard against terrorism in the Middle East.

That means taking military as well as diplomatic action against Yasser Arafat and his Palestinian thugs.

And it means standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Israel in the military defeat of its enemies.

Is this war-mongering? No, it is not.

Only Road to Peace

It is peace-mongering, for in the Middle East there is no peace, and there can be no peace until terrorism has been crushed.

Forget the illusion of win-win. There can be only win-lose.

And the United States of America cannot afford to be on the losing side.



John L. Perry, a prize-winning newspaper editor and writer who served on White House staffs of two presidents, is a regular columnist for NewsMax.com.

 

[TheDude]

This isn't about having God in your life. Interesting how you changed the subject. You said it's impossible to scientifically prove the existence of God, and I disproved your statement.

Besides, how do we know that your last statement is even true if you're just a cocktail of random molecules anyway?

It wasn't my intention to change the subject and no, you did not scientifically prove that God exist. Just because something is so complex and cannot be fully understood can only mean that God did 'it' is foolish and definately not science; that's called faith. (and no, I am not saying having faith is foolish)

 

[fossten]

It wasn't my intention to change the subject and no, you did not scientifically prove that God exist. Just because something is so complex and cannot be fully understood can only mean that God did 'it' is foolish and definately not science; that's called faith. (and no, I am not saying having faith is foolish)

Do you ever take a stand on anything?

How do we know that what you just said wasn't just random babbling? After all, you're just a random collection of molecules anyway, right?

 

[TheDude]

Do you ever take a stand on anything?

Yes, I take a stand that the notion of not knowing something could only mean God ‘did it’ is ridiculous. So please, lay of the “You don't stand for anything” rhetoric, it gets old...

How do we know that what you just said wasn't just random babbling? After all, you're just a random collection of molecules anyway, right?

How do I know what I say isn't random babbling? Easy, I thought about what I said, I choose my words and what comes out has a meaning and function. You can argue that I am wrong about the facts, that’s fine; maybe I am but you can't say it was randomness.

Am I a random collection of molecules? I don't know; possible that the entire universe was a bunch of randomness that just happened to work perfectly. Personally, considering how things work, I believe there is at the very least some form of higher power behind the control stick.

 

[fossten]

Yes, I take a stand that the notion of not knowing something could only mean God ‘did it’ is ridiculous. So please, lay of the “You don't stand for anything” rhetoric, it gets old...

Your inability to stand for something is what gets old, not my pointing it out.

How do I know what I say isn't random babbling? Easy, I thought about what I said [How do you know that YOU did the thinking? It's probably just random neurons and processes in your brain, right?], I choose my words and what comes out has a meaning and function. Again, how do you know that, since you're nothing but a random collection of molecules?]You can argue that I am wrong about the facts, that’s fine; maybe I am but you can't say it was randomness.

Am I a random collection of molecules? I don't know; possible that the entire universe was a bunch of randomness that just happened to work perfectly. Personally, considering how things work, I believe there is at the very least some form of higher power behind the control stick.

You cannot make that claim. If you are not a created being then you are a random collection of molecules with no afterlife, in which case what you just claimed has no relevance either way.

Nice try.

 

[rmac694203]

I like how your so called "scientific proof" of god's existence is basically comparing humans to a computer or some other manufactured object and saying that the universe has to be manufactured because it is so complicated. That's not scientific, it's ignorance. You are ignorant as to how things happened, so it has to be god. It's ok, I'm ignorant too, I just don't equate not knowing what happened to "it had to be god." I'm ok with my lack of knowledge on how the Earth formed billions of years ago, and I don't need a belief in an all mighty creator to help me live my life with purpose.

 

[fossten]

I like how your so called "scientific proof" of god's existence is basically comparing humans to a computer or some other manufactured object and saying that the universe has to be manufactured because it is so complicated. That's not scientific, it's ignorance. You are ignorant as to how things happened, so it has to be god. It's ok, I'm ignorant too, I just don't equate not knowing what happened to "it had to be god." I'm ok with my lack of knowledge on how the Earth formed billions of years ago, and I don't need a belief in an all mighty creator to help me live my life with purpose.

I see. So in the face of scientific likelihood, you throw up your hands and say, "Nah, it couldn't be God, because then I'd be accountable to Him. It must be something else, or I'd have to watch my p's and q's."

That's really smart. Especially when you'll have to face God one day and answer for how you've lived your life. What a shock that will be for you.

Just answer this: What's more likely - that there's an all-powerful God who created everything, or that we all just appeared here by sheerest luck?

 

[RRocket]

Despite some of Fossten's ramblings, he's absolutely, 100% correct this time. Saudi Arabia is the epicenter of world terrorism. I have read many, many books on the subject from all different people. But what Fossten didn't mention is the absolute power the Saudi Arabia plays in US politics/economy. And because of this it absolutely alters how SA is treated by the US. Saudi Arabi is one of the most oppressive countries in the world. It's human right record is awful. Oh..and most of the highjackers from 9/11 were from SA. I can't imagine what would have been the US response if the majority of hijackers were Syrian, or North Korean or Iranian. But SA got a pass. I recently read another book..a great one by Robert Baer, a CIA case officer for 21 years. He's the guy who would get tapped to go to foreign countries and talk to agents, spies, etc. He spoke fluent Arabic, so you can imagine the places he served. His credentials are impeccable. The book is called "Sleeping with the Devil: How Washington Sold Our Soul for Saudi Crude." It is one of the best books I've read on the subject since Baer was really able to go places others agents weren't able to. I recommend every American read it.(there are some passages in it that were censored by the CIA as being too sensitve to print. But a great, great book nonetheless. Also worthwhile is a very good primer on the Muslim/Islamic religion and how it became the radical, murdering religion it is now. It wasn't always this way, nor are all Muslims radical).

In a nutshell, this is what he says: Saudia Arabia, over the course of several years has transferred half a billion dollars directly to al-Quaeda, over a hundred million to the Taliban, and millions upon millions to other radical Islamic cells. This is basically paid protection from the Royal family, specifically al-Quaeda. Many of the Islamist are pissed because the Royal family is living large, too large, and that in itself is not the way a Muslim should live. So they extort money form the Royal Family to NOT have a revolution. Alot of that money goes into building mosques. And guess what is taught in those mosques? Radical Islamic fundamemtalism. So you have the government of Saudi Arabia financing the instruction of radical Islamic ideas to the male population of Saudi Arabia. That's just a nutshell. Read the book. A great eye opening read.

Oh..and Fossten..don't even try to use the Bible in any shape to defend your argument. I took theology in University (which is why I'm an atheist now!! )and the Bible has more instructions for violence as any other religious book. For example, if your children disobey you, you should murder them by stoning. Wife disrespect you? Stone her too. Someone else practicing a different religion? Kill them, loot the city, and destroy it leaving nothing standing. There is also racial intolerance, genocide, advocating rape (gang rape too!), massacres of POWs, and the list goes on and on and on. Oh..and some may say "Well that's the Old Testament". Well Christ himself, the most holy of people for Christians, said himself that the Old Testament is forever binding...

 

[TheDude]

Oh..and Fossten..don't even try to use the Bible in any shape to defend your argument. I took theology in University (which is why I'm an atheist now!! )and the Bible has more instructions for violence as any other religious book. For example, if your children disobey you, you should murder them by stoning. Wife disrespect you? Stone her too. Someone else practicing a different religion? Kill them, loot the city, and destroy it leaving nothing standing. There is also racial intolerance, genocide, advocating rape (gang rape too!), massacres of POWs, and the list goes on and on and on. Oh..and some may say "Well that's the Old Testament". Well Christ himself, the most holy of people for Christians, said himself that the Old Testament is forever binding...

For prosperities sake, please quote passages that support what you claim... I'm not disagreeing with you, but it'll be asked.

I have been brushing up on my bible knowledge here and there, I found an interesting passage; John 4:22, seems Jesus is saying one must be Jewish (Like Christ was) to be saved. Curious what a University theologist thinks of this passage?

 

[TheDude]

I like how your so called "scientific proof" of god's existence is basically comparing humans to a computer or some other manufactured object and saying that the universe has to be manufactured because it is so complicated. That's not scientific, it's ignorance. You are ignorant as to how things happened, so it has to be god. It's ok, I'm ignorant too, I just don't equate not knowing what happened to "it had to be god." I'm ok with my lack of knowledge on how the Earth formed billions of years ago, and I don't need a belief in an all mighty creator to help me live my life with purpose.

and that's A-O-K to think that way...

 

[TheDude]

Your inability to stand for something is what gets old, not my pointing it out.

Here we go again, Evil Fossten is back, and I can just picture you with the goatee. Also, like I mentioned before, with as many times I've taken the polar opposite stand to your position on any given subject, it's safe to say I in fact do stand for something.

You cannot make that claim. If you are not a created being then you are a random collection of molecules with no afterlife, in which case what you just claimed has no relevance either way.

Nice try.

Sure I can, I can say 'I' do not know what the finite truth about life, the universe and everything in between is and be content in my ignorance; there's a massive universe out there and we have yet to explore this planet in it's entirety. But saying "God must have done it" every time I don't understand something is of Barnum & Bailey clown like proportions.

Who's to say one needs the promise of an afterlife to live this life in a 'good' way? I avoid lying, I do not steal, I do not cheat, I do not murder and in general, anyone that knows or meets me has a positive and kind attitude towards me and I am not all these 'good' things because I think I'll go to hell if not. It's just the right thing to be in my eyes and I try to surround myself with like minded people.

Nice try yourself.

 

[RRocket]

Well I'll tell you where the quotes are if you promise to read them. It will take some time for me to find, and while it doesn't bother me to find them, I don't want to waste my time just for the fact that you want me to show proof. I assure you I'm not BSing you. Also be careful of what versions of the Bible you use to look up my passages. Often times, different versions "dummy down" the passages to make them more PC.

Yea, there are MANY passages in the Bible that openly discriminate..as I said. There is also some interpretations on the Book of Revelations that says quite specifically that only 144,000 people get to go to heaven. Different Christians groups argue about the interpretation, so it amounts to who you think is the most able to interpret words from divine beings...

 

[mach8]

No, there's a big problem comparing a rifle and Islam, saying both are "tools" used by people to achieve their means.

A rifle is something that a person uses, he controls it and shapes its actions. A rifle doesn't dictate what a person is to do with it. It just shoots a bullet, where that bullet goes is up to the person.

Islam is a religion that controls a person. True Islam, if it is used by a person EXACTLY as it stands (following the Quran exactly), causes a person to kill another human being. It does not leave that choice up to the person (unless that person willingly chooses to not follow Islam exactly. Then that person isn't Muslim, they follow some version of Islam, say "Islam lite", but they can't call themselves Muslim in the true sense of the word, because they don't follow Islam exactly)

Islam controls a person? How? You let yourself be controlled by the tenents of a religion, a religion doesn't control a person however it may shape their culture.

Religions are created, shaped , and controlled by PEOPLE. Very few, if any people follow any religion EXACTLY as it is scribed, very few can even agree as to what is written and just what that means in any religion in the world. That's why there are so many versions of Catholic, Jewish, and Islamic "faiths", who are involved in internal "civil wars" because one bunch belives it says this and the other bunch belives it says that, damn fools that they are.

It is my understanding anyone who submits to Aallah may call themself a Muslim, just as anyone who accepts Jesus may claim to be a Christian. Those who split hairs are often those who are using the religion to control others.

It doesn't really matter though because if you strip the facade of religion from those causing the upheavals in the middle east it's plain they are no more than power hungry thugs who are using any means at their disposal to achieve their ends.

 

[mach8]

Hey, I didn't start this conversation, Deville did. We're talking about science here, ok? If you are just a meaningless jumble of molecules, nothing you say has real meaning. It's just random, right? Therefore what you just said was random and meaningless too. Who knows if you even meant to say it or not.

So, because an event is random it follows that it's also meaningless because I'm just a odd collection of molecules? If I'm in the woods and a tree randomly falls on me it is quite meaningfull to me, whether it meant to hit me or not!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess that's realativity at work

 

[rmac694203]

I see. So in the face of scientific likelihood, you throw up your hands and say, "Nah, it couldn't be God, because then I'd be accountable to Him. It must be something else, or I'd have to watch my p's and q's."

So...it's scientific likelihood now? I thought it was proof. Being accountable to god has nothing to do with it. I just don't see how our inability to understand the way billions of years of life automatically equates to a higher spiritual being. And I don't need to live in fear of god to "watch my p's and q's." I don't need a reason to try to be a good person.

That's really smart. Especially when you'll have to face God one day and answer for how you've lived your life. What a shock that will be for you.

We'll see.

Just answer this: What's more likely - that there's an all-powerful God who created everything, or that we all just appeared here by sheerest luck?

Luck I guess. I find it makes more sense that somehow we evolved from simple organisms over billions of years than the belief that there is some all powerful being, who by some inconceivable and immeasurable force created everything we know in seven days or whatever. It's just how I feel.

 

[fossten]

It's just how I feel.

That says it all. You have no logical basis whatsoever to believe in evolution, you're just basing it on your "feelings." Yet evolution is taught as fact in schools. You just proved that you don't even understand Darwinian evolution and survival of the fittest. You only believe it because it was taught to you.

What's wrong with this picture?

 

[mark0101]

That says it all. You have no logical basis whatsoever to believe in evolution, you're just basing it on your "feelings." Yet evolution is taught as fact in schools. You just proved that you don't even understand Darwinian evolution and survival of the fittest. You only believe it because it was taught to you.

What's wrong with this picture?

actually I thought you couldn't teach evolution in school?????That was what my American Government teacher told me.

 

[rmac694203]

I don't remember if I was taught evolution or not. I guess logical means different things to different people. One of the most illogical things I have ever heard is the story of creation, so I guess different strokes for different folks. I guess I better go study up my my Darwinian evolution theory if I want to talk. Maybe I should go to Newsmax.com more often. Then maybe I could be as enlightened as you.

 

[fossten]

Well I'll tell you where the quotes are if you promise to read them. It will take some time for me to find, and while it doesn't bother me to find them, I don't want to waste my time just for the fact that you want me to show proof. I assure you I'm not BSing you. Also be careful of what versions of the Bible you use to look up my passages. Often times, different versions "dummy down" the passages to make them more PC.

Yea, there are MANY passages in the Bible that openly discriminate..as I said. There is also some interpretations on the Book of Revelations that says quite specifically that only 144,000 people get to go to heaven. Different Christians groups argue about the interpretation, so it amounts to who you think is the most able to interpret words from divine beings...

You want to quote that passage for us so you can show us how smart you are?

Never mind. I'll do it.

" 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

Obviously whoever told you that didn't even bother to read the whole chapter. The 144,000 refers to Jews that are sealed as servants during the tribulation period. If they were the only ones who go to heaven, how do you explain vs. 9-16, where it clearly refers to a great, innumerable multitude that are in heaven?

Oh..and Fossten..don't even try to use the Bible in any shape to defend your argument. I took theology in University (which is why I'm an atheist now!! )and the Bible has more instructions for violence as any other religious book. For example, if your children disobey you, you should murder them by stoning. Wife disrespect you? Stone her too. Someone else practicing a different religion? Kill them, loot the city, and destroy it leaving nothing standing. There is also racial intolerance, genocide, advocating rape (gang rape too!), massacres of POWs, and the list goes on and on and on. Oh..and some may say "Well that's the Old Testament". Well Christ himself, the most holy of people for Christians, said himself that the Old Testament is forever binding...

It's clear why you became an atheist. My condolences on taking Theology in an undoubtedly liberal university. It explains a lot. Like why you don't really know your Bible.

I'd like to see your quote about Jesus, whom you do NOT believe is the Son of God, but merely the "most holy of people" for Christians, (sort of like the Pope?). I'm certain you have been misled. Do you really believe that children and wives should be stoned to death nowadays? Ephesians 6 says that we are to obey them that have the rule over us. That means abiding by the laws of our own country. That means in the US, if your wife rebels, you don't get to kill her. Sorry to disappoint. Same goes for your kids, despite your mightiest desires.

Jesus also said "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's; and to God that which is God's." Jesus also said in Matthew 5, " 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Here are a few more for you to chew on:

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached.

Romans 6:14
Ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 7:4, 6
Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ .... We are delivered from the law, that being dead.

Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

It is true that the OT laws are forever. The Ten Commandments, for example, still articulate whether or not we are guilty before God.

However, nowhere in the OT does it say that the penalties such as those found in Exodus and Leviticus are forever bound. Ever heard of grace? Ever heard of the more perfect sacrifice for sin? Ever read the book of Hebrews? And understood it? I doubt it.

If you want to have a discussion on the supposed contradictions in the Bible, I'd be glad to open a new thread. But I will warn you right now that no atheist ever truly understood the Bible, and you won't be the first. I don't care what university you went to. So caveat emptor, pal.